Official no FMIC +METH, how well will it do?

[H82lose91]

They are only application specific due to the type of input they are looking for the scaling. IE MAP, MAF, TPS. Your best bet is MAP based using a 3bar map. I havent used any of the devils own stuff, but the alkycontrol.com stuff rocks and thats all i install. And i have had zero failures. These are MAP based. And i have used 2bar, 3 and 3.5bar sensors with the same unit.

 

[turboglenn]

I think instead of progressive for now I'm going to use solenoids to control it in 2 stages. A small pre-turbo coming on at 3psi to start the cooling process. Then have the 7 or 10 size nozzle come in at around 12-14psi for full on knock control and as much cooling as can be gained

I made some changes today, but instead of getting any vid of my car we only got a couple launches of Dan's car and then he was spooked of cops and chose to end our test session early. Disappointing to say the least, but oh well. I also did not get ANY logs because it took us too long to even get out to test and then as mentioned, we got cut short :/

I'm uploading the pics of the new meth nozzle locations now, i'll editand post them shortly

 

[turboglenn]

Here's the new nozzle i put in today 8'' up stream from the inducer/inlet area. It is an M5 nozzle.

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Here you can see the nozzle immediately post turbo, this one is an M7 (441cc/min) It has a small piece of smashed and melted tubing in it to allow me to plug it off without having to remove anything or use tools to make a change.

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In this pic you can see the simple plumbing valve i've implemented in order to shut off or modulate the flow to any one of the valves. The push to connect fittings make changes so simple that i wish every fittign on the motor used this same simple system

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This is a pic of the original and largest nozzle the M10.

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For todays testing i had initially run the 10 and the 7.... I was seeing AFR's as low as 7:1 or so guessing from the amount of fuel that had to be removed to even get the guage to move from being pegged at 9:1 (it's lowest reading)

I was running pure meth at first and the cooling and knock resistance was incredible. The charge pipe was damn near frosted when popping the hood after a pull. however at those AFR's I was seeing a lot of missing from basically flooding the engine. I used the :fuel trim" knob i have on the steering column and dialed it back into the mid 10's during the run and power picked up substantially. I NEED to start working on a dedicated map for these tests, but there's too many variables to just change it and call it good since the nozzles and their placements will be changing constantly along with the mix of water and meth.

The pre-turbo injection has already made a HUGE impression on me. A turbo that once took a good long time to spool now goes right up to where ever its set without the slightest hint of lagging other than the initial onset of the first few psi. Even only using the 5 pre turbo and the 7 post turbo the gains were phenomenal! I was in hog heaven to say the least. Tomorrow is my birthday so i doubt I'll get much testing done, but come Sunday we';re putting ARP's in Dan's head and fitting some new brake pads and then he is going to film or run the data logger for me while i dial in the tune to accommodate the added fuel from the meth.

Also, after adding the 3rd nozzle pre-turbo, i decided to go back to a 70/30 mix to reap some of the benefits of the water in the mix and it payed off by needing less volume of meth/water to achieve teh same effect with actual better results as far as keeping the knock sensor quiet

That's all i can think to report now, any questions, ask away!

 

[absolute_DSM]

The pre-turbo injection has already made a HUGE impression on me.

 

[RipperXX]

DOH!

Pre turbo = Very bad for turbo


The droplets hitting the compressor blades spining 100,000+ rpm will erode the fins making them weaker untill eventually they can break off. This wont happen for 25,000 miles or so but it WILL damage the turbo in the long run.

 

[turboglenn]

DOH!

Pre turbo = Very bad for turbo


The droplets hitting the compressor blades spinning 100,000+ rpm will erode the fins making them weaker until eventually they can break off. This wont happen for 25,000 miles or so but it WILL damage the turbo in the long run.

You raise a good point, but have you seen it personally? i'm thinking it happens way slower than that. SAAB even used pre-turbo water injection as stated in the thread from absolute_dsm's post

In the first page i state that my turbo blades are worn to hell anyway from almost 90K miles of hard abuse. So this is a test where i have an already worn turbo to be able to chance it and not worry about wasting money. Also on the other thread linked in here there was a pic of a compressor wheel with over 70k miles of having water sprayed into it and it had way less wear than my turbo does no matter how you look at it. I'm starting to believe that the amounts or extent of erosion in short amounts of time are the myth. Yes it happens, but not like some think. Or the military wouldn't have used it in turbine jet engines that carried the lives of countless troops. I'm Not saying you're wrong, but this has been covered at least a few times in this thread alone and it's a chance I'm down to take. So far the benefits of pre turbo vs. post turbo are incredible especially to watch a t3/4 57 trim stage III turbine spool as fast as a 20g once the meth hits.

And total performance is not my goal anyway. I want only the same performance as any good pump gas tune with some meth injection, but without having to worry about a FMIC, 6 extra couplers to blow off, the weight of the MIC and pipes..the list goes on and on. but mainly i want full cooling for running the AC in 100* summer days, while still getting the same performance as i would with just a FMIC and a small amount of water injection..So far i have only been disappointed by cruising temps of the inlet air, but even those higher temps have led to a smoother running engine at highway cruise speeds/RPMs

Not to mention it makes for one hellof a sleeper. When problems arise i'll be honest about them. This is as stated "a test" and that's it. if the results are good i will run it. If others don't want to or do want to they can use this info to help make that call.

 

[turboglenn]

Here's a link with some more info on pre-turbo injection.
Where Do I Position My Water Methanol Injection Nozzles
Stated here as well, there's plenty of info to dispell the myth that pre-turbo injection is just going to destroy wheels. I've also found countless others on different boards (thanks to links from members on here) that further backs up with real work testing that there is minimal errosion o the compressor wheel when done properly!

 

[Joesmoke]

I finally got through all 25 pages of that post.

My impressions of pre comp injection? There were actually quite a few testmonials in that post of success,rather then failure. The concept of failures, seemed to be held to more theoretical issues. There was some mentions of damage, but in those posts, it could not be proven that it was definitivley because of the injection,or foreign matter.

To extend the compressor range is what interested me the most. Looks like carefully timed injection (only where your starting to strain your compressor), most likely a straight water mix, with a very small amount on fluid would be worth exploring.

It appeared also, that a lot of the so called tests, were either not performed in what would be real world conditions, or were performed too poorly to truly see deifinitive results.

Once again, another example where I have to look at testimonials of real people, in real world driving situations to establish for myself if its worth pursuing.

 

[Joesmoke]

Turboglenn,

Your precomp nozzle looks like nothing special. Just a nozzle plumbed ahead of the compressor.
At the end of that aquamist post, they were starting to go crazy trying to aim the injection directly at the comp nut. Seemed like they were way overanalyzing the concept.

Whats your thoughts?

 

[turboglenn]

All i Can say is pre-impeller with my smallest nozzle has yielded me crazy good results equal almost to if not more than the biggest nozzle right at the TB elbow.

I was seeing 25-27psi ( could only make 22-23 before) and this was using the M5 nozzle pre turbo. There's nothing special about it at all, i just control it with a PWM output that allows me a bit finer control over it through a 30hz solenoid ( just added this yesterday) And the cool part was i was only seeing 1-2 * timing being pulled in an area that had absolutely NO TUNE on it what so ever.. it was just rich and had tons of timing in it as I've not concentrated on that part of the map.

Once i saw 30psi, 16* timing and 10.3:1 afr and it felt wicked for the split second until i let out because i knew it hadn't been tuned there Adan i was shocked to see that much boost anyway and let off.

After that i turned the boost down, opened up valve # 2 (immediate post turbo one) and was back in AFR's of 9.5 - 9.1:1 and i didn't even bother getting on it since I had no laptop and data is more of what I'm after compared to just going fast right now. (i spent the rest of the evening in the passenger seat since I've been drinking and my girl babies the car so I'll test more when sober tomorrow)
I have valves setup to allow me to configure and run the nozzles in many different way and I'm seeing the most benefit from the smallest nozzle pre-turbo (already stated, but excuse me I'm about drunk it's my b-day)

 

[turboglenn]

OH....we are going to add a pre-turbo nozzle to drdouglass's car tomorrow after we do ARP head bolts and new brakes on it. He has his s16g about maxed out and we're going to see if it really can extend teh range of the wheel effectively. We will have DSMlink logs of that up tomorrow ( he is still running a FMIC though) So we will ahve to take precautions to avoid meth puddling in the intake/IC on his but it should be interesting to take a compressor we know is maxed out and see if we can't get more out of it both in airflow and HP readings on DSMlink...stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!

 

[420a-t]

Try the pure water already!!! I want to see how that goes. You're using distilled water right?

 

[turboglenn]

Try the pure water already!!! I want to see how that goes. You're using distilled water right?

AS soon as i finish this one tank of this 70/30 mix I'm going to be going pure water. I've done pure meth already, but might repeat it for the data logs to be longer and more defeinitive.

Right now changing nozzle placement with each fluid because my goals are to find what works best with what liquid and which one i can getteh best results.

From my findings pure meth is still a little volatile unless used in such amounts that would require me to have a much bigger tank ( and a higher meth bill) But by backing off to 30% water i was able to use less than half the same amount of meth to get similar results as far as detontion prevention in concerned. Last night was my b-day, so i was running all over town and swapping nozzles and adjusting flow a bunch and finding out what worked good, but i wasn't able to pull any logs. Hopefully i'll get some today!

One thing i found while talking with a fellow tuner from MN that was down here for our car show this weekend is that others have done this same thing succesfully in this region and made good power. He was telling me that they were mainly cars that had no room for intercoolers, but he also cringed at the pre-turbo injection. He stated what everyone does "you're going to eat up compressor wheels" But as soon as i told him that it didnt' matter and that i was doing some testing "just because" he became interested and also wants to hear my findings when done. He was a huge E85 guy, everything he had with him was running e85 including the single turbo 93 mustang cobra pushing 963 whp!!! Turbo 4's are baddass, turbo V8's are straight evil

 

[turboglenn]

I did a few more tests today and pulled one log (there were cops running speed traps so i decided to wait till later tonight for further testing)

Surprisingly intake temps were way up (hitting 150-170 at full boost of 25psi) But i was also having a meth/water leak that i had to fix on the road. Much to my amazement, at 25psi and ~130-150* intake temps i wasn't getting any detonation/knock at all!!!!!!! talk about psyched, i was happy as hell to see those kind of boost #'s on pump gas and a crappy tune ( i was running so rich i had to globally pull 12.5% of fuel out to get to 10.8:1 AFR during those pulls. drdouglass was there as we spent 90% of the day putting new brakes on his car and swapping the stock head bolts for some nicer ARP units!

Since his s16g is about maxed out right now, we have decided his car would be a great candidate for pre-impeller injection. According to the text I've found the pre-impeller injections best performance shows when on a wheel that's out of it's efficiency range. So we will test if for a day or more logging it via DSMlink and post those results as well.

Of course i will keep this thread updated with everything i can think of.

Brief summary: Although I'm not getting the lowest intake temps, I am very pleased with the performance thus far! The pre-impeller ability to increase the efficiency of the turbo is incredible! I gained 5psi just by injecting my smallest nozzle 8'' upstream of the turbo inlet.

Boost response and spool have dramatically increased, partially due to the extremely short charge piping and partially because of the pre-impeller meth's abilities to change the density of the air making the turbo charger more efficient

Last of all... Idle and light throttle cruise have improved drastically with higher intake temps, the idle is smoother and more constant while 2-3k RPM light load cruising that use to yield slight stumbles as the AFR's fluctuated from closed loop operation, higher intake temps has eliminated this making me very happy on the highway!!!!


EDIT: #1 - 7pm

Just ran to the movie store to take back something we rented and took another couple logs, one short and one REALLY long one.

Again instake temps were hovering around 70 degrees cruising (normal) around 130+ on initial onset of boost and cooling to 120 - 123 by the end of each gear. And although the intake temps weren't signifigantly low, i did not see any knock during the pulls and was so rich i again found myself dialing fuel out by about 8% using the trim knoc during the pulls. For these pulls, I was only running the M5 pre-turbo and the M7 immediately post turbo. The 10 nozzle in the TB elbow was plugged off for these runs. As it combined with any other nozzle is WAY too rich and needs major re-mapping to run on, which would also make the car dependant on the W/I and as fast as it burns through it with that much nozzle i am trying to avoid the dedicated tune untill i get a larger tank or add a secondary tank.

These runs were on 50/50 water meth mix. And once i try each combination of nozzles i will go pure water next. I wanted to go from 70/30 mix to water, but figured i'd at least try teh common "baseline mix" that most people use just to have the data in case some one would ask.

 

[turboglenn]

Here;s some logs, in order from oldest to newest.

configure the software according to my post with it and the map in it and view the logs
on my logs "spare a/d" is the wideband voltage readout.... 11:1 is roughly 2.33volts. 2.0 volts is about 10.7 or so and 13.7 = 3.37 volts...so judge AFR's usisng those..i'm dead rich everywhere at WOT because of the large amounts of meth. The front o2 is useless and is read though "air fuel ratio" but you can configure teh software to view what data you want to see by hitting "c" and high-liting and moving values from teh right box to the left and hitting "space bar" to accept it, you can play with what data you want to see... the "end" key takes you to the last page. arrow keys move the chart by one line at a time and "page up"/"page down" do just that..moves one page of the log

In the datalog config page, select "duty cycle" "air fuel ratio" and hit enter to send it to the box on the right. Then select "mixture trim" on teh right andd hit enter to put it on the left box, then hit "space" to accept the changes...this way you can see how much fuel i'm pulling globally just to run a decent AFR because the high meth content was pegging me at between 6 and 9:1
(i wrote good instructions for setting up to read teh logs, they are on the first page)
these first three are on pure meth
http://members.cox.net/50reasons/NO2.HDL
http://members.cox.net/50reasons/NOFM.HDL

These are on 50/50 mix
http://members.cox.net/50reasons/M30-1.HDL
http://members.cox.net/50reasons/M30-2.HDL
http://members.cox.net/50reasons/DAN.HDL



These are on 50/50 mix

 

[420a-t]

Looking good! What do you think about getting a super small nozzel to go pre-turbo? I want those kind of gains, but I dont want to kill my brand new turbo. What does everyone think?

I've been planning on running a 80-20 mix of meth-water mix this year, and so far you've proven me correct that meth is the way to go. BUT, I still want to see those 100% water numbers!!! Good work!

Btw, how much better is spool with the hot-piping rpm-wise?

 

[turboglenn]

420a Thanks, I'm hoping i finally get something dialed in that i really like to where i dont' fell a need to put the FMIC back on. Small nozzles are what's recommended for pre-turbo injection. I'm definately going to keep it up pre-turbo for a good while of testing. The spool up is great with just the short pipe it's self, but when the pre-impeller meth hits it's insane how much faster it comes on!! I love it!

I'm hoping there's good things to come with testing the pure water , but i would think it would be best to still keep some meth in there for the extra cooling since it has such a short amount of time to do it
In all honesty I think an intercooler will end up back on the car, but at this point i'mm not against a supra side mount... But, i am ONLY after enough to push 400-425hp daily with a max potential between 450-475'ish. I guess that's still pretty high but my max goal isn't far from my daily goal, i just want the fastest spooling setup i can get and to have my AC able to be ran in 100* days. The no intercooler idea is mainly for better engine cooling and in hopes of better spool and response on the street.

 

[polarmoment]

with the DSM long gone and the MR2 the only car i'm allowed to mod anymore, i've been considering this as well.

champcars (or if you've followed open wheel as long as i have, "indycars") have used this for over a decade. they used a pre-compressor injector, or "PCI ring" on the compressor inlet, as they're not allowed to have intercoolers. they ran pure methanol, but the concept is the same, and also shows the science behind how they were able to extract 900+hp from small-ish turbos.

since the MR2 has little to no space for a decent air to air intercooler, i've honestly been considering just ditching the intercooler altogether and running a PCI and E85 fuel (i'm from MN as well, that stuff is pretty much everywhere) with the PCI coming on at a specified RPM like a "staged" fuel injection.

my engine management consists of a chipped honda ECU with the VtAK-y0! hardware added, so i could conceivably use the VtAK-y0! solenoid output to send power to the PCI injectors, and run the added fuel/timing side of things off the high cam maps.. mostly just thinking on paper here.

the only difference would be that the PCI would be supplied via the car's fuel system, instead of a secondary injection system. one less possible failure point maybe, but the idea is to keep points penalties to a minimum should it ever see a track under NASA sanctioning.. WI is major points, but uprated injectors aren't as bad. mostly just trying to keep the system as simple as possible too.

my main concern (and i haven't seen it addressed yet) is with the blow off valve. just what are we to do about that? obviously, it's not safe to have the BOV dumping a fuel/air mixture to atmosphere in a hot engine bay (pure water guys wouldn't have to worry about this). safest would be to recirculate it, obviously, and i may have to take that into consideration when i redesign the intake. the current setup vents to atmosphere only because i don't have a recirc fitting on the current intake tube. champcars also used a secondary throttle on the inlet of the turbo to prevent surge when the primary throttles closed, but that tends to add a lot of stress to the turbo seals.

anyone have any other ideas/discussion on that point?

 

[2gGSX]

I'm hoping there's good things to come with testing the pure water , but i would think it would be best to still keep some meth in there for the extra cooling since it has such a short amount of time to do it

Meth is actually going to do less cooling than water--it's simple to see from the enthalpy of vaporization numbers. As far as I can tell, the only benefit of meth is the octane boost, which again you don't see until you start using massive amounts of meth (more than water) and you end up pulling more heat out this way as well, since you are literally dumping fuel.

As far as the SMIC goes, I'm running the Dejon "SUPER BIG Side mount Intercooler" listed on their 2g SMIC page. It'll definitely do 400 whp with E85 and/or injection though. On its own, I was stuck running a 10:1 tune with ~13 degrees peak timing. On E85 though I've been able to lean it out to 11.5:1 and run the stock timing map without more than .4 degrees of timing being pulled from knock.

 

[RipperXX]

My understanding is water has a higher heat capasity but obsorbes it slower, Meth has a lower heat capasity but obsorbes it much faster.


It would make since to me that water might work better pre turbo, and Meth post. Hell maybe try a dual setup of a small water injectors pre turbo and a medium to small injector after the intercooler of meth?

 

[2gGSX]

My understanding is water has a higher heat capasity but obsorbes it slower, Meth has a lower heat capasity but obsorbes it much faster.


It would make since to me that water might work better pre turbo, and Meth post. Hell maybe try a dual setup of a small water injectors pre turbo and a medium to small injector after the intercooler of meth?

Water actually has a higher value for thermal conductivity than methanol. That is a moot point however because the specific heat capacity for either pale in comparison to the energy absorbed by their vaporization.

For any computer nerds out there, this is the same concept as using phase-shift cooling versus standard air (or even water) cooling.

 

[turboglenn]

I'm hoping water is going to do some more "work" than the meth and water meth mix have. So far I HAVE accomplished what i wanted to see, and that's up to 25psi on the street gas without knock and much faster spool times. Unfortunately, the results are inconsistent at best and just hasn't been reliable enough in back to back tests to make me feel like the benefits outweigh the other chances being taken by not running some sort of air to air cooler.

The high intake temps are what's really bothering me. What's going to happen when it's 100* out and 70-80 relative humidity? So far the ambient temps haven't been above 60 and I've had intake temps as high as 150's and the lowest intake temp by the end of each gear so far has been 104* F. With my FMIC alone in these temps i can do better than that without secondary cooling. So if water doesn't really pull it out as far as cooling ability the FMIC is getting nice new brackets and all new piping while the meth will help me finish getting to a daily driven 26-28psi on pump gas with no knock.

I will say that I've been pleased to learn how hot things can get and still have the right amount of meth keep knock away. Pure meth is awesome but to get the right amounts you better have at least a gallon tank and a 5 gallon can with "extra" in the trunk .

The mix is performed at least as well as expected and i had to use less of it, but in the overall repeatability the pure methanol blows the mix away, at least in my cases testing.

 

[turboglenn]

I did some more logging today. Still on a 50/50 mix and 20psi. Using just a preturbo injection nozzle of the M5 size i was getting poor air temps but again no knock and the boost controller was only set for 15, but the pre-turbo injection keeps the compressor making more than what i ask from it no matter what setting. But the temps aren't effectively cooled from it alone on any mix tried yet. So i turned the M7 immediately post turbo back on and the resutls were super rich AFR's great power,a dn spool without any knock.

During a 3-4 pull on a long stretch of deserted highway on lunch i saw absolutely no knock what so ever with the M5 pre-impeller and the M7 post turbo @ 20psi. What i have noticed is that when doing a slow long pull from low RPM's where the WI has a chance to come on and get flowing, there's no knock. But on pulls where i take off, gun first and bang second as soon as it revs out, I get ton's of knock ( about 8*) i'm thinking this is a combo of hot air and the fact that the WI injection isn't instant the way i have it set up. There's a good 8-10 inches of tubing on either side of the T coming from the check valve and once the motor sucks it empty the WI takes a couple of seconds to get the nozzles flowing up to speed when turned on. This could be solved by a solenoid at each nozzle but i don't think it would effectively solve this issue.

So in conclusion, no knock is obtainable on pure meth or a mix and no intercooler. Nice low intake temps have been ellusive so far, with a best being a drop to 104 from 140's by the end of a one gear pull using pure meth.

I still have to try pure water when this tank of mix runs out, but i have already secured some new mandrel bends for new IC pipes as i KNOW this isn't going to keep up with cooling when the summer months hit. Now going back to a FMIC with the knowledge i know have on meth and water mixes will have my car pushing 28-30psi daily once i get it back together and retuend on yet another setup (i'm getting tired of changin it already )

 

[bacalhau16]

I love the idea of being able to reduce that piping that much, and lose that much weight off the car. This is a really cool idea. I think its going to be extremely hard to have the intake temps drop that fast. When your not rolling onto the throttle and your just punching it. I think the preturbo, and post is your best bet. Cant wait to see the results of all this.

 

[turboglenn]

The thing i'm wondering now is how high is too high on intake temps if i'm able to avoid knock?? I mean everyone (including myself) always aims for the lowest using FMIC's, so the temps i'm seeing now aren't pleasing to me, but compared to some diesel temps and non intercooled and undersized inter cooler cars , i'm not doing too badly. But it still feels like there's something missing in the powerband and i can't figure it out because sometimes it's a monster through 1-2-3 and other times it's fairly calm or even slouchy feeling (i suspect heat soaking under medium loads as light load cruis i get only slightly above ambient), but it's usually calm when the J&S is pulling timing because of knock