Meth injection, no intercooler?

[endeffect0]

ok guys, I'm opening a new chapter in my dsm, this car is a kind of ginny-pig for my other projects. I feel its necessary to say that this is just my street car, I do autox and rallyx during the summers but come next spring the track car will be taking over the weekend racer job, and this will become the full time daily driver/back roads fun car.
with that said...

I am in need of better intercooling so i can turn up the boost. I'm running a Fp T28, I love it, the damn thing gets up to boost faster than anything i have driven without anti-lag. I would like to capitalize on that advantage as much as possible. The t28 has the same shell as the t25 which means it doesn't lend it self well to a FMIC because the turbo exits to the passenger side of the car.

Ideally, to capitalize on the quick spooling of the t28, I would like to run a pipe from the turbo right to throttle body with only two couplers and as smooth of bends as i can make. I would like to run just meth injection with no air-to-air intercooler if possible.

I realize that plenty of drag cars are doing this already and it is possible, but is it practical to run no air-to-air on the street.
as far as the specific injection setup I'm looking at devil's own... which brings up another question about injection control. progressive injection would probably be ideal for as setup with no other cooling. however i can control the injection via solenoid hooked up to the nitrous control of DSM Link. DSM links tuning would be easier (i can set specific rpm or speed, and what happens on clutch, and compare that immediately to the data logs) but would not allow for progressive control.


Im looking for input from those who have tuned with meth injection before or at least have an opinion that is not being made by simply what they have read on forums.

 

[RipperXX]

Short answer, no it's not IMHO. There was already a guy on here that tried it. And as I recall he could never get it to where he was happy with it and eventually just got a FMIC.











Don't let me stop you from trying though, the guy in question (can't think of his name) did have some limited sucess.

 

[endeffect0]

Humm.. I searched and I wasn't able of find anyone who had done it. I'll look deeper and see if I can dredge up his threads, My gut assumption is that he would have tried to do it with a progressive controller. But if this is not the case maybe thats where i need to look.

If you can recall the guys name, or even how long ago it was tried it would be a help.

thanks for the input ripper

well I changed my search perimeters and I found the above referred to post... Im doing some more reading up on some other projects and ill sure ill have more specific questions after lunch

 

[H82lose91]

I ran with no IC for a bit. Intake temps over my modded SMIC were about 20* up top. Cruise temps were well above 100* on a 85* day. I was going to spray more meth and get things below ambient but the end goal for the car was to do some Autox and hotlapping. For this, the SMIC and NO IC didnt make sense so i went to a EVO FMIC and meth. With out meth the car runs 18psi, on meth its balls ot on the E316g. And its a simple push of a button to switch between meth or not and both tunes. This is why i like the MAFTPRO when using meth.

Good luck with the testing. Please post your resutls and find some may to log IATs.

 

[endeffect0]

Well i finally finished reading up on the 6 page meth w/o intercooler thread and it does indeed show that running water and meth injection is not an effective replacement for FMICs. I did learn a lot however. I'm starting to look into pre turbo injection though i don't believe it will be my only form of intercooling.

at this point I would still like to avoid getting a FMIC for a number of reasons and I'm considering supplementing meth injection with the stock side mount and some new piping...
Perhaps some custom intercooling trickery to get more out the side mount with less bends in the piping... either way this thread has now become far less exciting to me. sigh...

H82lose91:
your post is exactly the type of information i was hoping to get from people by creating this thread. you make an interesting point on running multiple tunes, that would make this car a bit more interesting for me.


I still need more research and information on meth injection. The biggest question i have currently is about the addition of acetone to water in order to reduce the amount of surface tension of the liquid to allow for better cooling of the intake charge. If i can find a way to get cooling better than the average SMIC i would still rather run just meth...

thanks for the input so far guys.

 

[H82lose91]

Straight meth and you wont turn back. Im playing with pre-turbo injection as we speak. Well as of monday when my nozzle gets here. My E316g is done. Tunerpro logs show 45-46lbs/min which isnt 100% accurate but close. Car trapped 119.4 and 119.7 last time out with a best pass of [email protected] Car was bogging all night due an oversite on my part with some timing i was playing with on the maftpro.

Im planning to run a 2gph nozzle preturbo to see if i pick anything up. Like i said everything is maxed out on my setup so any gain will be obvious.

On my sidemount i just went with 2.25" in and outlets. I think you 2g guys can tuck the Supra Sidemount better than the 1g's so i would probly look in that direction. Then concentrate on air getting to it.

 

[RipperXX]

^^^
"On my sidemount i just went with 2.25" in and outlets. I think you 2g guys can tuck the Supra Sidemount better than the 1g's so i would probly look in that direction. Then concentrate on air getting to it."



Thats basicly what I would recommend as well, although your IC piping will be longer. It really doesn't make that big of a difference. Which is why I think subaru is silly for using the top mount intercooler for that extra hair of response. Most people that upgrade those things go to FMIC anyway .


But yea bigger better flowing SMIC and meth and you should be good, keep it sleeper like and have a little less lag than with a FMIC. Although when I went to a FMIC with my MHI Evo III 16g, I couldn't tell any difference in lag under normal driving or under spirited driving conditions.

 

[turboglenn]

If the 6 page thread you're talking about was mine, then i've tried about everything you can think of as far as meth + NO FMIC, pre-turbo, p[ost turbo, dual and tripple nozzles etc..etc...

If there's any questions about my thread you didn't find an answer to, post it here and PM me about it in case i don't get on the board, i'll get an E-mail notification to come look and reply

best of luck and honestly, in the winter i think meth + NO FMIC is going to be the hot ticket for great cold weather driving since the ambient air will be cool enough to negate much WOT effects (not to mention i cna't go wide open in cold weeather without just wasting tires)

Glenn

 

[H82lose91]

Definitely look into a progressive setup. With my setup between the Progressive and the MAftpro AUX maps, its seamless. Theres no hard transition, if you didnt know the car had it you'd never know it was there except for the fact the car is flying. And again push of a button and everything stays in a safe pump gas only tune, timing, afr, boost, fuel.

 

[endeffect0]

Thanks for all the responses guys!

I'm still in research mode at the moment but whatever i end up doing I will do a write up about the setup and the results when I get it done.

The current thought processes is finding an interesting way to run a SMIC of some variation with meth.
I would like to run a progressive setup but I'm still toying with the idea of running a solenoid activated by DSM link's nitrous setup.
DSM link is in the mail! i cant wait to get to toying with the various setup options and that will most probably lead to the final decisions between the various controlling options.

Turboglenn:
I cant tell you how helpful (and slightly heat breaking) that write up was. thanks for that.

H82lose:
The multiple map setup would be really sick. We will see how things work out with DSM link.

The one thing I would really like to find more information on is running acetone cut with water, I have an uncle running a twin turbine jet boat who was injecting 80% methanol injected into his jet engine's intake. He switched from meth to denatured alcohol / water, with very go results. Now I recognize the obvious differences between these types of engines, but its peaked my interest.

Any way... thats where my thoughts are headed at the moment.

 

[Car Cannibal]

You'll probably gain around 4psi of backpressure from ditching the SMIC if not more so that alone will help the T28 up top. If you do this I'd be curious to see what the boost spikes too with the MBC left alone.

I'd run at least an 15gph, Straight Meth, Progressive Kit turning on around 6psi if ditching the SMIC. That tiny turbo around 25-30 psi will be pumping out a lot of heat and the Meth in high volume can dissipate more heat than water can while fattening up the tune.

If you can log inlet temps then you'll be able to see how much more post turbo Meth you'll need to get below 100 degrees at WOT. This might even mean going to a twin 10gph post turbo nozzle to do so. Then if you wanna get serious add at least a 2gph pre turbo of 50/50 and wake up the T28 even more.