1. Join the Community!

    DSMtuners is a massive archive of DSM information - but more importantly, it's a COMMUNITY! Join in and participate with other DSMers, and invite all of your DSM friends to make this place their home. Chat with others, create a build thread, post questions and answers. Get involved! Logging in will also remove many of the advertisements, along with this notice. ;)

Official no FMIC +METH, how well will it do?

Posted by turboglenn, Mar 26, 2008

Please Support ExtremePSI
Please Support ExtremePSI
  1. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

    6,379
    100
    Joined Nov 5, 2007
    RIpley, West Virginia
    4-2-2008 10PM: - PLEASE LOOK TO LAST 2 POSTS FOR ADVICE I NEED!!!!!

    Well, i built the piping today, added a 2nd nozzle and did some general maintenance on the car (blew a rad hose last night). I've got pics that will be up in a bit, then I'll start posting logs. You will have to install the software to view them just like DSM link, and i will post complete instructions on how to view the logs.

    But this starts my long awaited test of no FMIC with meth for cooling only.I know a few others have PM'ed me about this and when i was going to get started so hopefully everyone that was interested see this. Tomorrow we'll all see what happens!!!

    Also with the room save from no UICP, i was able to mount my fuse box under the fender and clean up the bay a little more. The box had a broken tab that made it flop all over anyway, so i didn't lose anything
    EDIT:

    Specs:

    Most car specs are in my profile but with the FMIC eliminated
    Straight pipe from turbo outlet to TB with a Blitz BOV
    Dual meth nozzles, one M7 one M10. THe 7 is at the turbo outlet, the 10 as at the TB.
    The intake air temp sensor reads only the cooling from the first nozzle so i may move the 10 upstream of the IAT to get more accurate readings I will update when i make this change
    Running a 70/30 mix, heavy on the meth side

    Results so far for March 26th 2008

    1.) Ambient temperature of 55* yielded intake air temps in the 120's while cruising(a bit high) but no adverse effects, as a matter of fact that cruising miss i get right at 14.7:1 around 2500RPM and goes away if i richen it up did not show it's self tonight with the high intake temps.

    2.)Upon spool-up for a WOT pull the intake temps peak at around 118 average and settle to hit 104 - 108 average by the end of second gear with third being the same but not peaking as high initially after a shift from second, probably due to the meth's ability to get the piping cold when it is spraying and the shift being decently fast.

    3.)AFR's were typically 9.5 - 9.0:1...it's time to make a new map and lean her out a bit to 11's or so!
    Here's some pics
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I will get logs and the software and my current map to have the logs read in the correct units up shortly or fist thing AM. Depends on how tired i get after readings some posts.
     
  2. 2gGSX

    2gGSX Proven Member

    1,956
    27
    Joined Feb 15, 2004
    St. Louis, Missouri
    Just some quick math behind this since I'm reviewing enthalpy for MCAT:

    Specific heat of air is roughly 1kJ/(kgK). If you're going to flow say 50 lbs/min of air (roughly 22.68 kg/min of air), then you'll need to pull out 22.68 kJ/min per degree of intake (C/K) temp drop you want to see.

    Assuming your intake temps are 70 degrees F and your compressor efficiency will be at 70%, your outlet temps would theoretically be around 305 degrees F (151.67 degrees C) (Turbocharger Compressor Calculations).

    So, dropping that to say 150.2 degrees F (65.67 degrees C) means you have to pull out 86*C (K), or 1950.48 kJ/min of energy. If you ignore all other possible methods of heat conduction (radiation, conduction, etc.) and only look at using methanol to cool this (1100 kJ/kg) then you will need to completely vaporize 1.773 kg/min of methanol, or 2239 cc/min of methanol.

    3xM10 nozzles at 150 psig pressure might get close to doing it, assuming that all the methanol completely vaporizes in time.

    Someone check my math on this I might have done something stupid.
     
    MrBoxx likes this.
  3. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

    6,379
    100
    Joined Nov 5, 2007
    RIpley, West Virginia
    In the theory of yours, what would be bringing the air down to 150 from the 305?

    Already I'm seeing huge increases in intake air temps on initial boost, but they are stabilizing and coming back down to about 104 -108 by the end of the gear. So it is getting cooler, but because of not having a front mount initial temps are way up from the get go.

    Right now I'm on 70% meth 30% water. I just got 2 gallons of pure meth, but I'm wondering what's going to cool more water or meth. I need to go re-read the wiki on it. I'm going to update the first post with pics and specs now.
     
  4. 2gGSX

    2gGSX Proven Member

    1,956
    27
    Joined Feb 15, 2004
    St. Louis, Missouri
    Methanol.

    Water.

    Edit: using the same numbers, you'd need ~863 cc/min of water. This is all theoretical, of course.
     
  5. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

    6,379
    100
    Joined Nov 5, 2007
    RIpley, West Virginia
    What are peoples thoughts on running a nozzle pre-turbo inlet to aid in cooling the housing as well? I know you normally don't want to in order to avoid a puddling then a explosion from meth getting caught in the IC. But what effects would it have on a turbo with no IC to worry about and no place for the meth to puddle???
     
  6. H82lose91

    H82lose91 Proven Member

    169
    1
    Joined Jul 30, 2002
    BFE, Virginia
    Just thought i would add to this as im going to be dropping the intercooler on my car in the near future after some dyno pulls.

    Car setup is as follows. MAFTPRO running Speed Density. 9:1 .020 motor, 1mm over valves, 272 cams, stock intake, FP race mani, 3" exhaust, tubular 02 with wg recirulated, evo 560's, wally 255hp, sx afpr, evo3 16g, 2.25" IC piping, modded sidemount with 2.25" in and out. Alky Control progressive Meth with single M15 nozzle.

    Airtemp sensor is mounted post Meth Nozzle.

    No Meth, pump 93, 14psi IATS top of full pull 170* Roughly.
    Straight Water, same fuel, 17psi top of full pull temps were in the low 120's
    Straight Methanol, same pump gas shimmed wastegate spiking 30psi, falling to 27psi at 6k and 24psi at 7k top of full pull generally 5* below ambient.

    Timing was also picked up between the pulls. With the sidemount and 14psi the 560's were maxed out up top.

    It been in the low to mid 80's here lately. I was curious as to the cooling especially with the new BR race core out there dropping temps to roughly ambient, i wanted to see how far off i was before tossing the money at one. To compare the car will be seeing the dyno soon. It will be ran at 18psi with the stock intake on meth and temps will be logged during the dyno pulls via Tunerpro.
     

    566  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.750 @ 118.300 · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  7. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

    6,379
    100
    Joined Nov 5, 2007
    RIpley, West Virginia
    Thanks man, with knowledge like yours, i almost get discourage, but because of it i'm going for it anyway because some of what you've already said has given me some more ideas to possibly make this work even in the summer. Right now my IAT is only reading the temps after the first nozzle, the second nozzle goes directly into the TB.

    As for the flow of water, i have enough nozzle already to outflow those requirements!!


    H82lose...good info, glad to have your input!
     
  8. H82lose91

    H82lose91 Proven Member

    169
    1
    Joined Jul 30, 2002
    BFE, Virginia
    Thanks

    I would have put both nozzles post BOV, especially if you plan to run straight Meth.

    I did set the car up one day with no SMIC. Cruise temps were up about 8*. They were in the 120's, where they normally sit in the 110-112* range. Didnt do any full pulls because i didnt have a BOV or the meth nozzles mounted in the bypassed setup. Soon though. My theory is between pressure drop and heat soak it will pick up a few horse's, some spool, and drop weight. And IATs wont be an issue. I can always add another M15!
     

    566  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.750 @ 118.300 · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  9. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

    6,379
    100
    Joined Nov 5, 2007
    RIpley, West Virginia
    Yea, i was just editing my first post to state that i will be chagning it soon for more acurate results.
     
  10. 2gGSX

    2gGSX Proven Member

    1,956
    27
    Joined Feb 15, 2004
    St. Louis, Missouri
    I would be more worried about the water/meth chipping away at the compressor fins.
     
  11. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

    6,379
    100
    Joined Nov 5, 2007
    RIpley, West Virginia
    Do you think this would be long term erosion or some thing really fast because of the extreme temp changes?? My compressor wheel is 85 thousand miles old at least ( i drive a lot) and it is chipped to hell and needing a rebuild anyway LOL so it won't break my heart (and i probably wouldn't notice) if there's a bit more wear hahah, that's sad :)
     
  12. H82lose91

    H82lose91 Proven Member

    169
    1
    Joined Jul 30, 2002
    BFE, Virginia
    I say screw pre-turbo if you can get the cooling you need post.
     

    566  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.750 @ 118.300 · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  13. absolute_DSM

    absolute_DSM Proven Member

    1,651
    9
    Joined Jan 29, 2006
    Boise, Idaho
  14. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

    6,379
    100
    Joined Nov 5, 2007
    RIpley, West Virginia
    I agree, i'm only seeking the advice on pre-turbo injection in case i can't get the results i want based on tonights reading in fairly cool weather.

    I think my meth mix is a little off tonight as i was low the other day and pourred some of my bottled water in to fill it back up a bit, so i could be at 50/50 or less actually. I will make more acurate mixes for the remaining tests.

    Where was your M15 mounted at? and how far away in feet was your IAT sensor?

    absolute_dsm.. Thanks for that link, very good info, i'm more inclined to go pre-turbo now!!
     
  15. silver bullit

    silver bullit Proven Member

    2,318
    7
    Joined Jan 27, 2006
    martinsburg, West Virginia
    How is the knock? Notice any spool up characteristics sooner?
     

    820  0

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 2G DSM
    Loading...
  16. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

    6,379
    100
    Joined Nov 5, 2007
    RIpley, West Virginia
    With the meth off, i got a LOT of knock (7* on my j&s which is better at pulling timing before damage occurs than the stock system)- I baselined to test and saw intake temps of 158 right after spool up

    After the meth was back on and the air was out of it there was no more knock than normal. Just some from the occasional piston slap on shifts but that's it! I'm excited about that already as i was thinking even if i give up 10-20 degrees of intake temp if i'm not seeing any knock it was worth pulling the 35+ pounds of intercooler and piping off the car from the FMIC system.

    Spool up was pleasantly improved, especially after the meth hit. UP to 10 psi where it turns on the spoolup was only slighly faster, but once the meth hit the spool was instantly to the wastegate's setting of 18, 20 and 22psi that i tested in 3 runs tonight.

    And the best "cool factor" thing yet, the turbo sounds like a fricking jet engine, it's awesome, the turbo diesel guys will be jealouse of me now :D
     
  17. twack

    twack Proven Member

    612
    1
    Joined Oct 11, 2005
    winona, Minnesota
    lets see some vids
     

    794  0

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  18. silver bullit

    silver bullit Proven Member

    2,318
    7
    Joined Jan 27, 2006
    martinsburg, West Virginia
    X2....
     

    820  0

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 2G DSM
    Loading...
  19. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

    6,379
    100
    Joined Nov 5, 2007
    RIpley, West Virginia
    Vids of what the setup or the car driving? Honestly, It's not like i started making some ungodly power or anything, so i don't think it' would be that exciting to see the car moving from inside the cockpit for anyone, but that's your guy's call if you want to see it i'l have to borrow a camera.

    My MiniDV got dragged along behind a motorcycle from the 12 bar in a wheely bouncing off the ground, so it's now dead :(
    I"m waiting on some good solid long pull data logs. The car does seem to be pulling a tad harder with the extra meth, but that could be my imagination
     
  20. silver bullit

    silver bullit Proven Member

    2,318
    7
    Joined Jan 27, 2006
    martinsburg, West Virginia
    Someone needs to hook him up with a camera
     

    820  0

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 2G DSM
    Loading...
  21. twack

    twack Proven Member

    612
    1
    Joined Oct 11, 2005
    winona, Minnesota
    Do you still have the old intercooler piping or am i seeing things
     

    794  0

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  22. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

    6,379
    100
    Joined Nov 5, 2007
    RIpley, West Virginia
    What do you want in the vid? I'm kind of lost on that part. but if you let me knwo i'll get a camera and edit something up. drdouglass (screen name on here) just moved to town and said i could borrow his video camera when he was over today bringing me the 2 gallons of pure meth he got me in grand island.

    Gotta say thanks to him for that on here as well.
     
  23. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

    6,379
    100
    Joined Nov 5, 2007
    RIpley, West Virginia
    It's all in my garage off the car. The only pipes are from the turbo to TB, and from the air filter in the fender to the turbo inlet. It's as simple as it looks really.
    That big aluminum pipe you see behind the radiator is the intake tube
     
  24. H82lose91

    H82lose91 Proven Member

    169
    1
    Joined Jul 30, 2002
    BFE, Virginia
    My IAT is mounted in my 2g Throttle Body Elbow. Im running the old school Buschur Upper IC pipe and the meth is mounted a few inches south of the coupler attaching it to the the elbow.

    Spool with Meth injection should iimprove. I have yet to see it not. Im running a 16g with 9:1 compression so is well almost non-existent. According to the airflo calcs shes moving between roughly 38lb/min at 18psi which of course is said to be the limit on this turbo. My trans goes in this weekend, then some finally tweaking, hit the dyno then the track. We'll see if the MPH back up the dyno numbers. Id like to see it make 320awhp on this setup.
     

    566  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.750 @ 118.300 · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  25. absolute_DSM

    absolute_DSM Proven Member

    1,651
    9
    Joined Jan 29, 2006
    Boise, Idaho
    I guessing this is what they are looking for.

     

Share This Page

Support Vendors who Support the DSM Community
ECM Tuning ExtremePSI Feal Suspension Fuel Injector Clinic Jacks Transmissions JNZ Tuning Kiggly Racing Morrison Fabrications OHM Racing RixRacing RockAuto SouthBay Fuel Injectors STM Tuned Track Decals Track Sculptures VR Speed Factory