2G Not passing smog because of monitors

[toojung2die]

1997 Eclipse Spyder GST a/t

OBD-II indicates I have three monitors stuck in a not ready condition. Nevada smog will allow up to 2 monitors not ready. Not ready are Catalyst, EGR system, Oxygen sensor heater.

There are no problem codes logged and no CEL. The car passes this part of the test. My friend runs the smog test station and he ran some diagnostics for me. Both O2 sensors are feeding back and the pre-cat sensor is in closed loop during idle. He reset the ECU and I drove almost a full tank of gas before bringing it back. The systems are still reading not ready and there is no CEL. The CEL turns on for about 5-10 seconds during start-up and goes out normally.

I replaced both O2 sensors and ran another half tank of gas, multiple trips. The sensors are still not ready with no errors logged and no CEL.

Mods: 3" catback exhaust, Injen style intake w/filter, "knock" LED on boost solenoid. All hoses, sensors and solenoids connected. Basically stock. Car runs great. What can I do before I have to take my baby to visit Satan.

 

[toojung2die]

Thank you both for your persistence and contributions. If I had started this thread off back on 2004 with your same stubbornness and my 8 year federal emissions warranty still intact I may have been able to contribute to the solution of the real problem. I temporarily solved my OBD-II problem by installing a '95 EPROM ECU and DSMLink. I worry that even though I installed a '95 ECU and DSMLink I will still butt heads in the future with OBD-II smog testing. I thought I was off the hook for good but the testing is getting more in depth . My passing emissions test last year noted at the top of the certificate that the vehicle information did not not match the registration, probably because of the ECU swap. I passed anyway; for now. The documentation you provided may allow many 2G owners like myself the information and ammunition needed to convince the bureaucrats the problem exists in their regulations and manufacturing mistakes, not in the fine tuned cars we like to drive.

 

[jrprich]

Thank you both for your persistence and contributions. The documentation you provided may allow many 2G owners like myself the information and ammunition needed to convince the bureaucrats the problem exists in their regulations and manufacturing mistakes, not in the fine tuned cars we like to drive.

I am just a stubborn cuss when it comes to this kind of BS. Everyone passes the blame around so as not to have to take any responsibility.
I now have verbal and email commitments form Oregon DEQ and the EPA that they will resolve this issue for the long term........BUT so far that is all I have and this promises could pass away as soon as any of the individuals involved is transfered or quits their current post.

So I remain skeptical about the entire process but I will continue to press the issue as often as I can until something actually happens.

What is odd to me is my Talon never failed DEQ from 96-2007.........but something changed in 2008. I don't know if it is my ECU or their testing standards. SO I really don't know if forcing Chrysler to reflash my ECU will even help the problem WTF
I do have a spare 95 ECU that I picked up from this forum a year or so ago......haven't tried installing it yet and seeing if it will pass the OBDII tests.
What do you guys think, would it be worthwhile to swap the ECUs and try the test again ?

 

[toojung2die]

I do have a spare 95 ECU that I picked up from this forum a year or so ago......haven't tried installing it yet and seeing if it will pass the OBDII tests.
What do you guys think, would it be worthwhile to swap the ECUs and try the test again ?

You will discover the '95 MIL BUG which indicates a false "MIL IS ON" error even though the MIL is actually off. "MIL IS ON" will cause an immediate smog fail. The only way around this bug is to replace the EPROM with one that has corrected this bug. DSMLink and DSMchips have fixed the bug. '95 ECU's will set the readiness monitors without any trouble during normal driving but there are only 4 monitors compared to the 5 monitors on later ECU's. This fact didn't bother the last OBD-II testing station I visited.

 

[jrprich]

So I jump from one bug to another

How much to replace the EPROM ??

 

[toojung2die]

So I jump from one bug to another

I felt the same way after I went through the trouble of buying a '95 eprom ecu only to find it solved the readiness monitors problem but now I had to solve the "mil bug" problem. To replace the eprom the ecu has to have the old eprom removed and a socket soldered in its place. It's very tricky but I'm experienced with IC soldering so I did it myself. The majority of people will pay someone to do it for them. The places that sell modified eproms sell the socketing service.

How much to replace the EPROM ??

DSMLink

KEYDIVER Chips

The primary purpose of these modified chips is for performance tuning. Fixing the "mil bug" is an added feature. If I was you I would put the '95 ecu in your car first to see if it sets the monitors. I did this and after a couple of city/highway drive cycles all the monitors were completed. It was then I discovered the "mil bug" but I was happy to know my car was running properly and capable of completing the monitors. The sites linked above also have instructions on swapping ecu's between model years.

 

[TunaTalon]

A new stage three chip from dsmchips is $150. Please see KEYDIVER Chips - 2G DSM ECU Tuning

In January Jeff had code to fix the readiness flag problem ready for Beta test. That may be fixed now.

 

[jrprich]

So if I am reading this right, to use the 95 ECU I would need to:

Send the ECU to someone who can mount a socket for the EPROM
Then order a modified Stage 3 EPROM for the modified ECU ?

This will get expensive fast

 

[TunaTalon]

Some (all?) 1995 ECU's have sockets. Only 1995 ECU's had sockets from the factory.
I bought a 1995 ECU from dsmchips for my 1998 Talon and its running fine.

 

[jrprich]

Update,

Got a call and voicemail from Chrysler today, he wanted details about my Talon and the issue......but we are still playing phone tag so not sure just what is up. But I see it as progress. Will advise when I know more.

 

[TunaTalon]

So if I am reading this right, to use the 95 ECU I would need to:

Send the ECU to someone who can mount a socket for the EPROM
Then order a modified Stage 3 EPROM for the modified ECU ?

This will get expensive fast

Sorry for not being more definitive yesterday; I was on a mission.
A better answer for the socketed or not question is found at:
DSMLink - FAQ - EPROM

 

[jrprich]

Follow up email from EPA today below. Looks like Oregon DEQ will have to put 96 Talons on the Exception List after all. Now to get a confirmation from DEQ.

Jim

----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 12:34 PM
To: Richardson, Jim
Subject: RE: Eagle Talon

Dear Mr. Richardson:

Yes, we have made some progress. We have identified that the 2.0 Liter Turbo Eagle Talons have Mitsubishi engines while the Non-Turbo Eagle Talons have Chrysler engines.

Chrysler used re programmable computers and can reprogram the vehicle via the California recall and Federal warranty extension. However, the Mitsubishi vehicles with the turbo engines have non-re programmable computers and could not be reprogrammed. For those vehicles, they should be exempted from the readiness portion of the test. All that means is that the I/M lane should still scan your vehicle to check for a "Check Engine Light" and a malfunction/trouble code but ignore the readiness portion of it.

So, EPA needs to follow-up with Oregon and you should be able to get you through the test once that happens.

I am sorry for the delay and confusion, and thank you for your patience.
I will give you an update once we have communicated with Oregon.

Thank you.

-ALM

 

[jrprich]

Looks like EPA has DEQ straightened out

:



-----Original Message-----
From: BEYER Gary [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:39 AM
To: Richardson, Jim
Cc: PRESTON Gerry
Subject: FW: 1996 Eagle Talon

Hi Mr. Richardson,

There is an EPA update on your 1996 Eagle Talon below.

It appears that the 1996 Eagle Talon is split into two separate groups.
Those with turbo engines were manufactured by Mitsubishi and come with a non-flashable Mitsubishi controller and those without turbo engines were manufactured by Chrysler and come with a flashable Chrysler controller.
Hence, Oregon will have to adjust its policy to accommodate these separate groups.
The flashable non-turbo 1996 Eagle Talon will be required to get a reflash at Chrysler's expense.
The non-flashable turbo 1996 Eagle Talon will be treated the same as the
1996-1998 Mitsubishi vehicles.

DEQ apologizes for the inconvenience this oversight has caused you and is working to update its vehicle test software to better handle this peculiarity of the 1996 Eagle Talon.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.

Gary Beyer
Information Systems Specialist
Oregon Department of Environmental Quality Vehicle Inspection Program
971-673-1641

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]

Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:19 PM
To: BEYER Gary
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: 1996 Eagle Talon


Gary,

We have verified that a vehicle owner in Oregon has a 1996 Eagle Talon with a 2.0 liter turbo engine. This is a Mitsubishi engine with a Mitsubishi controller that is not flashable.
As such, it should have been included in Appendix D of EPA's I/M Guidance in the same manner as the 1996-1998 Mitsubishi vehicles (i.e., these vehicles should be scanned for MIL illumination without regard to readiness status). Thus, while we are in the process of updating Appendix D, please treat 1996 Eagle Talons with a 2.0L turgo engine the same as the 1996-1998 Mitsubishis. Meanwhile, 1996 Eagle Talons with non-turbo engines (i.e., Chrysler engines) should be covered under the
1996 Chrysler readiness reprogramming. We are investigating whether other vehicle fall into this bracket.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks
Gene


Eugene J. Tierney
Office of Transportation and Air Quality Transportation and Regional Programs Division 1310 L Street, NW, Room 316 Washington, DC 20005
202-343-9267 (office)
202-343-2803 (fax)

Mailing Address:
U.S. EPA
1200 Pennsylvania Avenue, N. W.
Mail Code: 6406J
Washington, DC 20460

 

[Defiant]

You deserve a friggin' medal. Thank you for all your effort in this.

 

[toojung2die]

1996-1998 Mitsubishi vehicles (i.e., these vehicles should be scanned for MIL illumination without regard to readiness status).

This statement from the EPA alone would have been worth several hundreds of dollars to me before I bought DSMlink. The last time I used the dealer to obtain a passing smog test I was charged $308 for the MUT-II procedure. DSMlink is useful for more than just tuning.

I had my car OBD smog tested yesterday and it passed as it did last year. What was different this time is the certificate did not list the number of monitors not ready as it did in the past. I asked the tech if that was because those tests were not performed and he only shrugged The certificate also did not note that the ECU information did not match the registration information as it did last year That's a relief.

 

[c5chris]

jrprich,

You are THE MAN!!!

I think you should be a wiseman or even a DSM god for that matter.

 

[jrprich]

jrprich,

You are THE MAN!!!

I think you should be a wise man or even a DSM god for that matter.

Thanks,

But when it comes to DSMs, I am far from a wise man

I have never really modded my Talon and now she is our standby, bad weather car WTF

I can't sell it for any decent price due to the miles and age......so I guess she becomes a garage queen in her senior years

I did this because I get stubborn and relentless when confronted by a Catch 22 situation where everyone blames everyone else.

 

[Xit40]

Very well done sir! I commend you!! I wish I had your resolve when I was facing similar issues. I had to have the dealer use the MUT-II procedure before. It didn't cost that much...probably because I knew all about them not running the tests and threw an absolute s*%tfit then told their head tech he was a retard. I left the TSB sitting on the driver's seat just to be "that guy". Needless to say I've never been back to that dealership, and inspections haven't been a problem since, but you are a saint.

 

[Justin_Bailey]

ok, I have a 96 talon with this problem but i got another ecu to swap in... will I have to unplug my battery with the new ecu or do i just plug it in and drive around for a week?

 

[TunaTalon]

Please read through this thread from post 91. The problem with monitors not being set is a software design problem. Unless your new ECU has aftermarket software it will have the same problem as the original ECU.

Also see the wiki at OBDII Emissions Testing and the DSM - Dsmwiki which includes a sample e-mail requesting a waiver.

 

[jrprich]

ok, I have a 96 talon with this problem but i got another ecu to swap in... will I have to unplug my battery with the new ecu or do i just plug it in and drive around for a week?

Pretty sure a ECU swap will NOT resolve the issue.......so if your Talon is a Tsi just contact the EPA (see my contacts above) and have them talk with your DEQ about adding your Talon to the exception list.......problem resolved. If your Talon in a different model, Chrysler has to reflash the ECU and that should be a NO COST flash.......again, read from post 91 down

 

[spyderturbo007]

[
As such, it should have been included in Appendix D of EPA's I/M Guidance in the same manner as the 1996-1998 Mitsubishi vehicles (i.e., these vehicles should be scanned for MIL illumination without regard to readiness status).

I wonder if I can use this to get my money back from the dealer.

Great work on getting this resolved.

 

[TalonTSiGuy]

Ok everyone, I have some news that might be helpful to others who have this problem as well.

I just bought my 97 GST, and had the ECU problem when getting smogged being in the "not ready" state. I read this thread, and tried contacting numerous places on what my options are. I finally got exactly where I needed to be and figured I'd share with you guys.

I live in Southern California by the way, so this is for you Cali guys. I was given a number 1-800-622-7733 and this is a smog referee number. You call them and set up an appointment with them at a location nearest to you. She asked me if my car passed everything else on the test except the OBD2 portion and I told her yes, so she said everything should be fine, and that they would take care of the certification for me when I take my car down there and get it tested.

It's going to cost 38.25$ which is the cost of a standard test. FINALLY. I'm so happy that this mess will finally be done. My appointment date is in 2 days, and it shouldn't take longer then 1 hour she said.

If anyone else in CA is having issues in this area, I'd suggest contacting this number or another smog referee in your area.

Thanks again for this helpful thread guys.

 

[dsmcodym]

i bought a 97 talon tsi and i have the same problem. i live in utah though. is there an exception list here to? or is that only californa?

 

[TunaTalon]

When the Wiki (OBDII Emissions Testing and the DSM - Dsmwiki ) was drafted the OBDII tests applied to part of Utah.

"Utah (Salt Lake, Davis, Utah, and Weber Counties) "

I haven't confirmed the Utah regulations since then. The Wiki has an example email to request a waiver. You will have to exercise Google to find who to sent it to in your state.

 

[dsmcodym]

well i found out today that eclipses are on the list. talons are not. there the same car so i took it down to the emissions conrol place. like the one for the state they understood and passed me for free. but wow 2g's are a hassle..