Spyder Smoking Issue Because Of Turbo?

[Tkzdsm]

My 1998 spider gs-t smokes and it’s annoying and I am pretty sure it’s most likely the turbo seals I feel like, It only smokes when I rev but never when I’m just in idle. I thought it would be the valve guide seals but the guy I bought it from said he had gotten them replaced and they didn’t look eaten up when I had my valve cover off. Just want to be sure before replacing the seals on my turbo. Is there other reasons to why it might be smoking? Any feedback is appreciated.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoNgI0KIQ3I

 

[Tkzdsm]

okay so i replaced it and the picture that showed the three hose nipple on the air intake was very helpful and so i reconnected everything correctly this time and it’s still smoking, i let it come to operating temps, nothing was leaking or anything, the only weird thing was that in the exhaust there was a little bit of liquid dripping, you can see in the video, and it still smokes after throttle

edit: also i had my snorkel/air intake off and checked for shaft play and there wasn’t any play.

edit: also does this mean that there is still too much pressure buildup within the cc?

edit: sorry for the edits but as i think more questions come to mind, and this is unrelated but when i throttle and let off my rpms dip below the normal idle rpm and then go back up to normal

:/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbASDphibSo

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anyone have an idea?

 

[dwb]

anyone have an idea?

Did you ever test your PCV valve as mentioned by @1990TSIAWDTALON ?

 

[Tkzdsm]

Did you ever test your PCV valve as mentioned by @1990TSIAWDTALON ?

not yet but I will, if it doesn't smoke what should my next course of action be?

 

[Blinkyblinx9]

Start it up cold and make it smoke real good a few times. Do not let it warm up at all. Smoke it out and shut it off. Pull your O2 sensor and see if it's coated with oil or looks sludgy at all. If you see anything other than black soot or a bit of white dust on it pull the turbo for inspection. If you see THICC black soot then you might have a fueling issue. Or it's just been cold started too many times and not allowed to warm up enough to cook it off.

Wait no, where even is your O2 sensor? In the video of your engine bay you point just about straight down at your turbo outlet and there is no sensor there. It doesn't even look look like it has a bung for one from that angle.

 

[Tkzdsm]

Wait no, where even is your O2 sensor? In the video of your engine bay you point just about straight down at your turbo outlet and there is no sensor there. It doesn't even look look like it has a bung for one from that angle.

I do have an o2 sensor just don’t think i got it in the shot but i assure you it’s by my downpipe like normal. i’ll try that and share the results thank you.

 

[dwb]

not yet but I will, if it doesn't smoke what should my next course of action be?

Remove the PCV valve and see if you can blow through it one way and not the other. They are notorious for leaking boost pressure. They also tend to get gunked up over time and stick closed or open. Might be able to clean it out with a solvent/brakleen, if not, try to find a new OEM valve. Some people remove it and replace it with a higher quality inline check valve.
Be careful reinstalling it. The valve cover can break if you torque it too tight.

 

[Blinkyblinx9]

Sorry, it was late and I have only ever seen O2 sensors in the factory location. I read of people putting them elsewhere but that's all.

I don't think anyone has asked this yet but does it smoke all the time under those conditions? Is it more or less when the engine is cold? Does it smoke more shortly after it starts getting hot but lessen after it's been up to temp for a good while. I've never experienced this myself but logic would tell a person that a cold exhaust isn't going to smoke oil that's spraying into it as much and that a leaky seal is a leaky seal hot or cold. I would also assume that as the exhaust does gradually get hot that it's going to smoke oil that was deposited during a cold start thus leading to more smoke than what there would be after it's been hot for a while.

Edit: There is one flaw with this. Many cars smoke a little when cold. It's also dependent on the temp when cold started.

Also is there any sludge in your intake? Oil leakage around the compressor usually leaves oil in the intake and it's fairly easy to see. Since your car has had that filter on the crankcase vent instead of recirculating crankcase gas into the turbo inlet you shouldn't see very much if any sludge after the turbo.

I'm not trying to downplay the possibility of crankcase ventilation issues It just feels like nobody has attempted to help you eliminate the possibility that it might be your turbo which is what you had initially asked.

 

[Tkzdsm]

Did you ever test your PCV valve as mentioned by @1990TSIAWDTALON ?

okay so i did it and it still smokes pretty bad, and im not sure but its still splashing liquid maybe condensation but the liquid itself didn’t smell like anything, however it did smoke upon startup and then stopped when i hit the throttle and then it would only smoke after the i would throttle, the video is of it smoking before it stopped from me throttling it. and also there is a bunch of oil on my exhaust manifold where it connects to the engine which is probably not relating

edit: i don’t know if this changes anything but it’s also very hard for my car to start, it takes a dozen tries for it to stay alive and all the other tries usually have it crank and then come alive and then go dead to no rpms sometimes it idles for a second roughly and then plummets to 0.

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[Tkzdsm]

Sorry, it was late and I have only ever seen O2 sensors in the factory location. I read of people putting them elsewhere but that's all.

I don't think anyone has asked this yet but does it smoke all the time under those conditions? Is it more or less when the engine is cold? Does it smoke more shortly after it starts getting hot but lessen after it's been up to temp for a good while. I've never experienced this myself but logic would tell a person that a cold exhaust isn't going to smoke oil that's spraying into it as much and that a leaky seal is a leaky seal hot or cold. I would also assume that as the exhaust does gradually get hot that it's going to smoke oil that was deposited during a cold start thus leading to more smoke than what there would be after it's been hot for a while.

Edit: There is one flaw with this. Many cars smoke a little when cold. It's also dependent on the temp when cold started.

Also is there any sludge in your intake? Oil leakage around the compressor usually leaves oil in the intake and it's fairly easy to see. Since your car has had that filter on the crankcase vent instead of recirculating crankcase gas into the turbo inlet you shouldn't see very much if any sludge after the turbo.

I'm not trying to downplay the possibility of crankcase ventilation issues It just feels like nobody has attempted to help you eliminate the possibility that it might be your turbo which is what you had initially

well the only time it smokes is when it first starts for a little and then it stops, and then it only smokes after i hit the throttle. i’m pretty sure it’s the same wether it’s hot or cold, and the amount doesn’t change wether it’s warmed up or not. for the intake I have not checked that and i will, where around the intake? where the pcv valve hose connects to it? thank you btw

 

[Tkzdsm]

Remove the PCV valve and see if you can blow through it one way and not the other. They are notorious for leaking boost pressure. They also tend to get gunked up over time and stick closed or open. Might be able to clean it out with a solvent/brakleen, if not, try to find a new OEM valve. Some people remove it and replace it with a higher quality inline check valve.
Be careful reinstalling it. The valve cover can break if you torque it too tight.

okay I will check and thank you

 

[Blinkyblinx9]

The oil on your exhaust manifold is likely from your valve cover gasket. You can kind of see it dripping down from there. Might want to consider sealing that or at least making sure it's not leaking around your timing belt.

If your compressor side is leaking you'll likely find oil at the turbo discharge pipe or in the hoses coming from the discharge pipe. If it were bad enough to be causing smoking you would likely notice a quite a bit collecting at the lowest point in your intake. Heck it would probably be fairly obvious as it takes quite a bit of oil to cause that kind of smoke.

Have you noticed the oil level dropping at all or do you not run it enough to let that happen?

 

[Tkzdsm]

The oil on your exhaust manifold is likely from your valve cover gasket. You can kind of see it dripping down from there. Might want to consider sealing that or at least making sure it's not leaking around your timing belt.

If your compressor side is leaking you'll likely find oil at the turbo discharge pipe or in the hoses coming from the discharge pipe. If it were bad enough to be causing smoking you would likely notice a quite a bit collecting at the lowest point in your intake. Heck it would probably be fairly obvious as it takes quite a bit of oil to cause that kind of smoke.

Have you noticed the oil level dropping at all or do you not run it enough to let that happen?

No my oil level hasn’t dropped almost at all, i still drive it sometimes but no it basically doesn’t change

 

[dwb]

OK, so now that you've got your crankcase to breath better, does the smoke seem any different? Are you sure it's not just condensation/steam like your last video? See what it looks like after it's fully up to temp.

As a data point, I'm almost certain my turbo seals are not great, but I only notice a bit of smoke when under boost. Nothing at idle, decel, or cruise. I do see some oil in my intake/inlet of the turbo. I once completely blew a turbo and it left a smokescreen all the time, especially when accelerating.

Valve stem seals/guides seem like a very likely possibility. Does it start to smoke after idling for a long period?

What do your spark plugs look like? Have you done a compression or leak down test? If not, you may want to think about it.

I'm not convinced it's not fuel either. You mention hard starts so you might be dumping extra fuel. Does your exhaust tip have a lot of sooty buildup?

 

[Blinkyblinx9]

Is it me or does it sound like it has a miss or is hella cammed in that video?

 

[We're on Boost]

okay so i did it and it still smokes pretty bad, and im not sure but its still splashing liquid maybe condensation but the liquid itself didn’t smell like anything, however it did smoke upon startup and then stopped when i hit the throttle and then it would only smoke after the i would throttle, the video is of it smoking before it stopped from me throttling it.

The splashing in your exhaust outlet is just water. It condenses in the exhaust system from all the water vapor that is naturally in exhaust gasses. It will be dark from absorbing carbon that is lying around inside your pipes. If I ever have to start my car with the exhaust outlet only a couple feet from a closed garage door, I'll put a big cardboard behind the car to catch the dirty water drops that fly outa there.

The only time I've ever had oil smoking exactly like yours was a long time ago on a car that had just had the head rebuilt by a crummy machine shop that wasn't hip to metric stuff yet and they didn't have the exactly right size reamer to finish the ID of the new valve guides. So the fit between the new valve stems and the new valve guides was too lose. Probably only by a thou or 2. It doesn't take much. So even though it had new OEM valve seals, I got oil smoke on startup, and also when lifting off the throttle while driving. Like yours. Also my actual oil consumption over a thousand miles was not much, maybe half a quart or less, probably what yours is.

So I think you could have bad valve stem seals, or you could have too much clearance between valve stem OD and valve guide ID, and in your case that would be due to wear from high mileage or maybe a previous rebuilder screwed things up in there a little bit, and the too much clearance allows the valve stem to rock around in there too much which maybe the valve seal can't cope with.
Or maybe it's bad rings. That you should be able to tell with a compression test which is pretty easy. I don't remember if you've already done a compression test.
I don't think it's from the turbo. I know you'd probably have a lot more fun buying a new turbo than rebuilding the head or the whole engine, but I think it will turn out that it's not the turbo. This is basically only happening when you've got high vacuum on the engine - everything between the throttle body and the cylinders. So I think the problem is in there somewhere, not at the turbo.

 

[Tkzdsm]

OK, so now that you've got your crankcase to breath better, does the smoke seem any different? Are you sure it's not just condensation/steam like your last video? See what it looks like after it's fully up to temp.

As a data point, I'm almost certain my turbo seals are not great, but I only notice a bit of smoke when under boost. Nothing at idle, decel, or cruise. I do see some oil in my intake/inlet of the turbo. I once completely blew a turbo and it left a smokescreen all the time, especially when accelerating.

Valve stem seals/guides seem like a very likely possibility. Does it start to smoke after idling for a long period?

What do your spark plugs look like? Have you done a compression or leak down test? If not, you may want to think about it.

I'm not convinced it's not fuel either. You mention hard starts so you might be dumping extra fuel. Does your exhaust tip have a lot of sooty buildup?

Okay so it does smoke when idle just for a bit until i throttle and then it only smokes when i throttle from then on, when its “warm” it doesn’t smoke on idle at all and only when im throttling. i’ll double check that its not just steam but them smoke burnt my nose when i smelled it for a while. and the smoke doesn’t seem any different. I haven’t pulled my spark plugs but I will today as I had bought new ones anyways for maintenance, i’ll show pic of what the look like. I have not done a leak down test but i will soon. When i do the leak down test if its leaking does that mean it’s the piston rings id assume. Also I have thought that it was my valve stem seals at first since the problem first arose but I was turned away from it since I thought it would puff smoke always but since it usually was only when throttle I thought of turbo problems. But now I am thinking it’s the valve seals.

When I do the valve stem seals there’s a way to do them without retiming right? I put everything TDC and then zip tie the camshaft gears to the timing belt and take out the cams and do the stem seals and then I should be able to just put the cams back in right? also I should be pressurizing the cylinder i’m working on 125-150 psi right? if i miss anything let me know i don’t want to make a mistake

edit: could someone link me a tool set that i can use to compress the spring.

Also would these valve stem seals work i’m pretty sure they’re the right size just want to double check

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[Tkzdsm]

Is it me or does it sound like it has a miss or is hella cammed in that video?

I hope not a miss but i’m pretty sure it’s just how it sounds

 

[Tkzdsm]

The splashing in your exhaust outlet is just water. It condenses in the exhaust system from all the water vapor that is naturally in exhaust gasses. It will be dark from absorbing carbon that is lying around inside your pipes. If I ever have to start my car with the exhaust outlet only a couple feet from a closed garage door, I'll put a big cardboard behind the car to catch the dirty water drops that fly outa there.

The only time I've ever had oil smoking exactly like yours was a long time ago on a car that had just had the head rebuilt by a crummy machine shop that wasn't hip to metric stuff yet and they didn't have the exactly right size reamer to finish the ID of the new valve guides. So the fit between the new valve stems and the new valve guides was too lose. Probably only by a thou or 2. It doesn't take much. So even though it had new OEM valve seals, I got oil smoke on startup, and also when lifting off the throttle while driving. Like yours. Also my actual oil consumption over a thousand miles was not much, maybe half a quart or less, probably what yours is.

So I think you could have bad valve stem seals, or you could have too much clearance between valve stem OD and valve guide ID, and in your case that would be due to wear from high mileage or maybe a previous rebuilder screwed things up in there a little bit, and the too much clearance allows the valve stem to rock around in there too much which maybe the valve seal can't cope with.
Or maybe it's bad rings. That you should be able to tell with a compression test which is pretty easy. I don't remember if you've already done a compression test.
I don't think it's from the turbo. I know you'd probably have a lot more fun buying a new turbo than rebuilding the head or the whole engine, but I think it will turn out that it's not the turbo. This is basically only happening when you've got high vacuum on the engine - everything between the throttle body and the cylinders. So I think the problem is in there somewhere, not at the turbo.

Okay thank you and this really helps, similarly my engine also got redone by the guy I bought it from so it was a bit sketchy but it was a good price so I still bought it. Hopefully he put the piston rings on correctly and that it’s only the valve stem seals. thank you

 

[pauleyman]

It diesnt sound like Stem seals to me. If you decide to so those just retime it. No possible error that way and no guessing. I am not a fan of the shortcuts.

 

[Blinkyblinx9]

Yes, you technically can do VS seals without retiming but it's kind of a PITA and you might as well make sure you have new quality timing components anyway.

You'll need to pop the rollers out without scratching anything. Tricky but far from impossible. Might as well inspect your lash adjusters while your at it since you'll have to deflate them prior to reassembly. Get a 4g63 dohc valve spring compressor. You can get an aluminum screw type for cheap. Think mine was 20$.

I can't stress this next part enough. Set your timing mark to cylinders 1-4 at TDC and only do cylinders 1-4. Once they are done set your timing mark 180° out then do cylinders 2-3. If you muff up on a cylinder that's not at TDC you risk dropping a valve down into a cylinder that's at the bottom of its bore and then the head has to come off.

Keep everything organized as you take it apart and make sure the same retainers and everything goes back on the valve it came off of. Not the end of the world if it doesn't but if the last guy balanced spring preload nicely like your supposed to (I doubt he did because who wants to waste their time) you wouldn't want to throw that off.

Anyway after you strip a valve use a seal puller or carefully use a pair of needle nose pliers (please don't scratch your stems or it could wreck the new seal) twist, tweak, tug whatever you got to do to get it off. They can be a pain to beguin with and you won't have much room to work with the cams in the way. This is honestly the part that will make you wish you had taken the cams out. It's kinda tight down in there. Do it all in reverse and your done.

Keep dirt and debris out as best as possible the entire time. You might consider tidying up around the Lay out fresh tarps as needed. If your outside hang a big tarp over the hood to keep dust and whatever is in the air away. You really don't want dirt getting in there.

 

[Tkzdsm]

Okay so it does smoke when idle just for a bit until i throttle and then it only smokes when i throttle from then on, when its “warm” it doesn’t smoke on idle at all and only when im throttling. i’ll double check that its not just steam but them smoke burnt my nose when i smelled it for a while. and the smoke doesn’t seem any different. I haven’t pulled my spark plugs but I will today as I had bought new ones anyways for maintenance, i’ll show pic of what the look like. I have not done a leak down test but i will soon. When i do the leak down test if its leaking does that mean it’s the piston rings id assume. Also I have thought that it was my valve stem seals at first since the problem first arose but I was turned away from it since I thought it would puff smoke always but since it usually was only when throttle I thought of turbo problems. But now I am thinking it’s the valve seals.

When I do the valve stem seals there’s a way to do them without retiming right? I put everything TDC and then zip tie the camshaft gears to the timing belt and take out the cams and do the stem seals and then I should be able to just put the cams back in right? also I should be pressurizing the cylinder i’m working on 125-150 psi right? if i miss anything let me know i don’t want to make a mistake

edit: could someone link me a tool set that i can use to compress the spring.

Also would these valve stem seals work i’m pretty sure they’re the right size just want to double check

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oil all up on the spark plug

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[Tkzdsm]

Yes, you technically can do VS seals without retiming but it's kind of a PITA and you might as well make sure you have new quality timing components anyway.

You'll need to pop the rollers out without scratching anything. Tricky but far from impossible. Might as well inspect your lash adjusters while your at it since you'll have to deflate them prior to reassembly. Get a 4g63 dohc valve spring compressor. You can get an aluminum screw type for cheap. Think mine was 20$.

I can't stress this next part enough. Set your timing mark to cylinders 1-4 at TDC and only do cylinders 1-4. Once they are done set your timing mark 180° out then do cylinders 2-3. If you muff up on a cylinder that's not at TDC you risk dropping a valve down into a cylinder that's at the bottom of its bore and then the head has to come off.

Keep everything organized as you take it apart and make sure the same retainers and everything goes back on the valve it came off of. Not the end of the world if it doesn't but if the last guy balanced spring preload nicely like your supposed to (I doubt he did because who wants to waste their time) you wouldn't want to throw that off.

Anyway after you strip a valve use a seal puller or carefully use a pair of needle nose pliers (please don't scratch your stems or it could wreck the new seal) twist, tweak, tug whatever you got to do to get it off. They can be a pain to beguin with and you won't have much room to work with the cams in the way. This is honestly the part that will make you wish you had taken the cams out. It's kinda tight down in there. Do it all in reverse and your done.

Keep dirt and debris out as best as possible the entire time. You might consider tidying up around the Lay out fresh tarps as needed. If your outside hang a big tarp over the hood to keep dust and whatever is in the air away. You really don't want dirt getting in there.

okay that makes sense, can’t you take the cams out first without messing up the timing? and just use air pressure to keep the valves up instead. thank you for the detailed steps though if I do it that way, and how would you use the tool if the cams are in the way? i thought i can just take cams out and have the cam gears stay and ziptied to the belt. am i wrong probably

 

[Tkzdsm]

It diesnt sound like Stem seals to me. If you decide to so those just retime it. No possible error that way and no guessing. I am not a fan of the shortcuts.

what else do you think it could be i’m just curious. and i just am scared of retiming.

 

[Blinkyblinx9]

Sadly the cams are what your timing and the gears bolt on to the end of the cams. If you take the cams out the gears have to go out with it. If you try to use a cam block and or zip ties you'll still have to release the tensioner to get them back into place as its spring loaded so the tension will need to be reset anyway.

I used these to do my head and timing components. If you can live without the tensioning rod in the timing set they make a lower profile wrench adapter. You might consider that as it was a huge pain to use the one included.

Amazon.com

Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074PCDXX3?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

Timing is far from hard. Get quality (OE) components and follow torque specs where applicable (and possible) and stick to the FSM timing procedure.

 

[pauleyman]

okay that makes sense, can’t you take the cams out first without messing up the timing? and just use air pressure to keep the valves up instead. thank you for the detailed steps though if I do it that way, and how would you use the tool if the cams are in the way? i thought i can just take cams out and have the cam gears stay and ziptied to the belt. am i wrong probably

Timing is not hard. It's simply meticulous.
Read this
This one also.