2G Not passing smog because of monitors

[toojung2die]

1997 Eclipse Spyder GST a/t

OBD-II indicates I have three monitors stuck in a not ready condition. Nevada smog will allow up to 2 monitors not ready. Not ready are Catalyst, EGR system, Oxygen sensor heater.

There are no problem codes logged and no CEL. The car passes this part of the test. My friend runs the smog test station and he ran some diagnostics for me. Both O2 sensors are feeding back and the pre-cat sensor is in closed loop during idle. He reset the ECU and I drove almost a full tank of gas before bringing it back. The systems are still reading not ready and there is no CEL. The CEL turns on for about 5-10 seconds during start-up and goes out normally.

I replaced both O2 sensors and ran another half tank of gas, multiple trips. The sensors are still not ready with no errors logged and no CEL.

Mods: 3" catback exhaust, Injen style intake w/filter, "knock" LED on boost solenoid. All hoses, sensors and solenoids connected. Basically stock. Car runs great. What can I do before I have to take my baby to visit Satan.

 

[jrprich]

Thanks,

I found pretty much the same sites and also ended up at ALLDATA

I did find this in ALLDATA, but couldn't open it.......but it is for a different Eagle

Automotive Recalls and Technical Service Bulletins for 1996 Eagle Vision V6-215 3.5L SOHC. Provided by ALLDATA

 

[TunaTalon]

If you're dealing with bureaucrats, your best bet is keeping the argument based on the documentation:
1. Show that EPA recognizes the Talon problem.
2. Show that they need to comply with EPA.
3. Show that other states already recognize the Talon problem.

They are more likely to be helpful if it keeps their paperwork straight.

 

[jrprich]

Thanks to all for all the time and research on this issue, it is appreciated

Jim

 

[jrprich]

Catch 22

I emailed Chrysler and their response was:
"The Talon is not part of Recall Event 678 TSB 18005-01 and has NO Recalls listed"

So I have now replied with a copy of the PDF file from the EPA that clearly shows the Talon on page 4.
This is the exact document that Oregon DEQ referenced when they told me the Talon was not eligible for a back up tailpipe test BECAUSE............wait for it...........Chrysler was to fix the problem with the Talon with Recall Event 678 TSB 18005-01

Will advise when they reply

 

[jrprich]

Chrysler replied to my request to review the EPA document:

Dear James:

Thank you for contacting the Chrysler Customer Assistance Center regarding your 1996 Eagle Talon.

We appreciate the time and effort you took to write to us back.

We have reviewed the attached document but, our records indicate that your vehicle (VIN # 4E3AL5xxxxxxxxxx) is not involved in the Recall Campaign # 678.
Not all the 1996 Eagle Talon vehicles are involved the Recall Campaign # 678.

For any further questions, please contact the Customer Assistance Center at 800-992-1997 for additional information.

Thanks again for your email and for sharing your concern with us.

Sincerely,

George Ray
Customer Service Representative
Chrysler Customer Assistance Center
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So DEQ says have Chrysler fix the Talon, Chrysler says the Talon is not part of the Recall


Catch 22 insanity

 

[TunaTalon]

James,
In my research I found no responsibility for the manufacturer beyond the eight year warranty which is long expired.

Chrysler has no motive to fix the problem. The car is old, and an orphan. Your best bet now is Oregon. Try to point out that their regulations are not in conformance with EPA regulations.

Welcome to the Bureaucracy.

 

[jrprich]

Thanks TunaTalon, but in the reference you and others posted................

Actually the EPA doc on page 4 says

"TSB 18-005-01 applies to non-California vehicles and will be performed at no cost, even if the warranty has expired. A similar agreement between ARB and Chrysler has been established for CA vehicles."

That reads to me that Chrysler is responsible forever for this problem.

But I am pressing from both sides hoping to get someone to budge. I have yet to locate a contact at Oregon DEQ to deal directly with......but I am still working on it.
I am also going to contact EPA directly as it would seem that the EPA would hold the biggest stick in this situation.

Thanks again for all your time on this

BTW, I have been a teacher for 32 years and am pretty used to how government bureaucracy operates..........so not surprised, just pi**ed off

 

[jrprich]

From what I have read, the 99s did NOT have this issue.........will a 99 ECU work in my 96 ? Are ECUs specific to each model, like different for an auto VS a manual, etc.?
What do I need to be shopping for in an ECU or can mine be reflashed by someone other than a dealer to possibly resolve this issue?

 

[jrprich]

Update 3

Called Chrysler Customer Assistance this AM and had a discouraging conversation with them
They are not budging from their mantra that "your Talon was not part of the Recall Event in question"
I told her that my local dealer claimed there was no such recall or TSB..........she asked for the dealer info and said she would call me back. Ten minutes later the same service manager that told me there was no such recall or TSB called me and surprise..... there is such a TSB, but it has been "reclassified" as TSB 181897.
181897

They offered to re-flash my PCM..........for "at least $150.00"

This seems high to me for a reflash............what do you guys think ?

I also head back from Oregon DEQ and they say they have folks (and they provided names and contact numbers) "working on this in order to expedite your request"
So we will see which mountain will move.

Anyone have contact info for the EPA ??

 

[TunaTalon]

James,
Good work. What do you teach, Advanced Persistence?

And yes, $150.00 seems high for a fix that is subject of a TSB.

 

[jrprich]

Thanks,

Any idea what a flash should run ?

I teach technology courses as well as manage the 1500 users, 400 PCs, 100+ printers, at my building. Persistence is a necessary trait to survive in public schools.........I have survived for 32 years, but this is my last.

Shot off an email to the EPA today as well.........will be interesting to see what comes back from that huge organization

 

[jrprich]

Possible good news

just got a conference call from three guys at Oregon DEQ. The long and short of it is I get a exemption to be tested this year by tailpipe........which I will pass because I already had them sniff it for me.
And these three managers assured me they would review the EPA documents and Chrysler documents and find a solution. Once they do they will notify me for the future........we will see.
They also said that the Eclipse and the Eagle have different PCMs and that the Eclipse PCM can not be flashed where the Eagle PCM can be flashed..........so this is why there was an exception for the Eclipse, but not for the Eagle.
This sounds like BS to me.........does anyone know if they do have the same PCMs ?

For now will not pay to have a flash and see what comes of my "persistence"

Thanks once again for all the help,

Jim

 

[TunaTalon]

Stocking different ECU’s for the Eclipse and Talon lines would have been a very bad engineering decision.

See Eclipse Talon Laser Galant 3000GT Stealth ECU ID Reference for a full listing of ECU part numbers.
Note that there are no distinctions between the DSM family members. Of the models I looked at the A/T and M/T have the same part numbers.

Hmmm, I’ve never been lied to by a Dealer (or flight attendant) before.

 

[jrprich]

TT,

Thanks for that link.

I did pick up a used ECU awhile back from a forum member that was supposed to be the same as mine........now I can verify that

I do note on the chart that there were two possible ECUs used during 96/97 and perhaps that is why Chrysler says mine is not part of the recall.

2G TEL Turbo AWD (D33A)

7/95-6/96 - MD321911
E2T61676

7/96-5/97 - MD326328
E2T61683

Guess I should take a close look at my present ECU..........is the ECU is mounted under the dash behind the console center area? Or under the hood on a 2G

Nevermind..........SEARCH is my friend
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/21379-ecu-location.html

 

[jrprich]

I see in the many TSBs that they talk about "flashing the PCM"

On a 96 Talon are the terms PCM and ECU interchangeable ??

 

[Defiant]

Yes, same-same.

 

[jrprich]

Yes, same-same.

Thanks,

I thought so

 

[jrprich]

Safe for the next two years

Passed the back up test fine.

Was interesting as the guy had to fake out the software by entering my Talon as a 96 Eclipse
So now my Registration and my Title differ as to the make and model, but have the same VIN. Guess this could become an issue in a sale.

I have yet to hear back from the EPA. Still holding out some hope that my conversations and emails with Oregon DEQ will have some success..........but I won't hold my breath

Once again, thanks for all the great support and time.

Jim

 

[TunaTalon]

I will add the lessons learned from your effort to the Wiki and the hard links from this thread. If there is anything else you have turned up that should be community knowledge then please post here or PM me.

Congratulations, you have proven that persistence pays. Now if only I can find some profit from stubbornness?

 

[jrprich]

Well it took a long time, but today I got a reply from the EPA about my issue.
Read the emails below and below that the new document he sent me.
If you need the docs in PDF, email me.

Jim--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tue 4/1/2008 2:28 PM
To: Richardson, Jim
Cc: BEYER Gary
Subject:

Dear Mr. Richardson:

I received your e-mail regarding problems getting your 1996 Eagle Talon
reprogrammed so that you can have your OBD I/M inspection administered.
I am cc'ing Gary Beyer of the Oregon DEQ because he had contacted us as
well and was trying to aid in resolving this issue.

First of all, I apologize about the confusion and inconvenience this has
caused.

Second, attached are some documents that may be helpful when talking to
your local dealer. Recall #678 applies only to California vehicles
because, at the time it was issued (September 1996), California was the
only program conducting OBD checks. Later on as more states began
conducting OBD I/M checks, Chrysler agreed to cover this reprogramming
under warranty for vehicles outside of California. However, there were
still significant issues with customers paying for this reprogramming
event so Chrysler extended the reprogramming event to cover the life of
the vehicle to prevent this. The dealer notification below indicates
this, as well as the fact that your 1996 Eagle Talon should be covered.
Therefore, I would take these documents to your dealer for reprogramming
and make sure that they understand that this action is covered for your
1996 Eagle Talon.

(See attached file: Chrysler Readiness Notification.pdf)(See attached
file: Chyrsler TSB 18-005-01.pdf)(See attached file: 18-18-97.pdf)

Finally, to prevent any future issues, please send me the vehicle
identification number (VIN) for your vehicle and the name of the local
dealer you are interacting with. My manufacturer contact at Chrysler
would like to make sure that this is taken care of for you and will get
in contact with the dealer to explain the documents above.

Thank you for your time and patience and, once again, we apologize for
this inconvenience.

- Arvon L. Mitcham
Project Manager/Engineer, On-Board Diagnostics
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
Office of Transportation and Air Quality
Compliance and Innovative Strategies Division
734.214.4522

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tue 4/1/2008 2:38 PM
To: Richardson, Jim
Subject: RE:


Thank you.

Please send me the VIN of your vehicle and the name of the local dealer
as well as who you talked to at Chrysler Corporation (techline? service
hotline?). Even though they may be with a techline/hotline, they may
not be Chrysler Corp or may not have gotten the memo. I am going
straight to the engineers/designers on this one.

Get me that information as soon as possible so we can get your vehicle
cleared/registered.

-ALM


Received Date:
04/01/2008 05:34
PM
Transmission
Date:
04/01/2008
05:34:37 PM

Mr. Mitcham,

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I have shared these documents with Chrysler Corp directly and they
INSIST that my Eagle's VIN IS NOT COVERED by these documents and they
WILL NOT PAY for the reprogramming. I have their replies in emails as
well as I called them directly and they would not budge.

So I remain in a "Catch 22" on this issue.

Suggestions would be helpful.

Sincerely,

Jim Richardson

-------------------------------------------------------------

WPA Document

WARRANTY PLANNING & ADMINISTRATION
PURPOSE:
It has been detennined that some 1995 and 1996 model year vehicles may not display the On-Board
Diagnostic (OBD) readiness codes that indicate all OBDII tests have been perfonned and diagnostic
troubles codes (DTCs) can be read. Absence of the OBD readiness codes could result in your
customers being denied testing under new State Inspection/Maintenance (1M)programs.
TIMING:
Effective immediately the warranty coverage for the OBDII readiness has been extended to lifetime
and this extension applies to the vehicle regardless of ownership on all of the following vehicles:
. 1995 Chrysler Cirrus, Dodge Stratus, and Plymouth Breeze - All Models Equipped with a 2.0L
Engine and Manual Transmission.
All below listed 1996 Model Vehicles Built Prior to November 21, 1995
. 1996 Dodge Neon and Plymouth Neon
. 1996 Chrysler Sebring, Dodge Avenger, Eagle Talon
. 1996 Chrysler Cirrus, Dodge Stratus, Plymouth Breeeze
. 1996 Chrysler Sebring Convertible
. 1996 Chrysler Concorde and LHS, Dodge Intrepid, Eagle Vision
ACTION:
The reprogramming of the PCM for the OBD readiness codes needs to be completed. Please see
TSB 18-005-01 dated February 16,2001, The 1996 Eagle Talon, Dodge Avenger and Sebring have
been added to the TSB. All technicians should familiarize themselves with this bulletin prior to
diagnosing or repairing any vehicles.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
A copy of the Owner Letter has been attached to this bulletin. Owners who previously paid for a
repair involving reprogramming of the PCM for OBD readiness codes may be eligible for
reimbursement. To request reimbursement the owner should include the original paid receipt (keeping a
copy for their records), including the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) for consideration to the
address below. Additionally, some States have imposed monetary penalties on owners who have not
passed the 11Mtest within a specific period of time. Owners that might have
TO: Dealer Principal,ServiceMgr,and ClaimsAdminMgr. NO: D-03-09
SUBJECT: OBDIIReadinessCode WarrantyCoveral!eExtension DATE: June, 2003
1995ChryslerCirrus,DodgeStratus,&PlymouthBreeze;
1996Dodgeand PlymouthNeon; 1996ChryslerSebring,Dodge For: X Dealers
Avenger,Eagle Talon; 1996ChryslerCirrus,DodgeStratus,
PlymouthBreeeze;1996ChryslerSebringConvertible;and
1996ChryslerConcordeand LHS,DodgeIntrepid,EagleVision Zone
been penalized because they were denied testing due to the absence of the OBD readiness codes might
also be eligible for reimbursement of this penalty. Owners should submit this additional, original paid
receipt for consideration to the address below:
DAIMlERCHRYSlER CUSTOMER CENTER
P.O. BOX 21-8004
AUBURN HillS, MI48321-8004
Customers with concerns or questions concerning this issue are being asked to contact their dealership.
In the event that further assistance is necessary they may call the DaimlerChrysler Customer Service
Center, toll free at 1-800-992-1997.
2003010 WARRANTY PLANNING & ADMINISTRATION
DAIMLERCHRYSLER
Dear DaimlerChrysler Vehicle Owner:
It has been determined that some 1995 and 1996 model year vehicles (listed below) may not display
the On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) readiness codes that indicate all OBD II tests have been performed
and diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs) can be read. Absence of OBD readiness codes could result in
your vehicle being denied testing under new State InspectionlMaintenance (11M)programs.
Models:
1995 Chrysler Cirrus, Dodge Stratus, Plymouth Breeze - All Models Equipped with a
2.0l Engine and Manual Transmission
All below listed 1996 Model Vehicles Built Prior to November 21, 1995
1996 Dodge Neon, Plymouth Neon
Chrysler Sebring, Dodge Avenger, Eagle Talon
Chrysler Cirrus, Dodge Stratus, Plymouth Breeze
Chrysler Sebring Convertible
Chrysler Concorde and lHS, Dodge Intrepid, Eagle Vision
If you are or have been denied 11Mtesting by your State as a result of the absence of OBD readiness
codes, please make an appointment with your dealer who will reprogram your vehicle's Powertrain
Control Module (PCM) at no cost to you. Your 11Minspector may say that your vehicle is not ready for
testing, that your vehicle's readiness is not set, or words to that effect. Once your vehicle's PCM is
reprogrammed, it is extremely important that you drive your vehicle for several days prior to the 11Mtest
to ensure that all OBD II tests were successfully performed and that your vehicle is now ready (Le.,
readiness is set) for the 11Mtest. DaimlerChrysler is extending the warranty for correcting this OBD
readiness code issue for the lifetime of the vehicle. The reprogramming of the PCM for the OBD
readiness codes needs to be done only once.
If you have already incurred an expense for the reprogramming of your PCM for OBD readiness codes,
you may be eligible for reimbursement. Please submit your original paid receipt, including the Vehicle
Identification Number (VIN) for consideration to the address below. Additionally, some States have
imposed monetary penalties on owners who have not passed the 11Mtest within a specified period of
time. If you have been penalized because you were denied testing due to the absence of OBD
readiness codes, you may also be eligible for reimbursement of this penalty. Please submit this
additional, original paid receipt for consideration to the address below:
DAIMlERCHRYSlER CUSTOMER CENTER
P.O. BOX 21-8004
AUBURN HillS, M148321-8004
DaimlerChrysler values your loyalty and we apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused
you. If you have any questions or experience any problem obtaining the service, please call the
DaimlerChrysler Customer Service Center, toll free at 1-800-992-1997. A representative will assist you
in getting your vehicle properly serviced. Please keep this letter with your vehicle's warranty materials.
Sincerely,
DaimlerChrysler

 

[TunaTalon]

Jim,
Ya done good. The knowledge you gained now benefits the greater DSM community.
I don't care what you say; you are still a teacher and will always be.
Maurice

 

[jrprich]

Jim,
Ya done good. The knowledge you gained now benefits the greater DSM community.
I don’t care what you say; you are still a teacher and will always be.
Maurice

Thanks for the compliment

Now if all this can actually move Chrysler Corp to actually do the work for free

As they say, Stay Tuned for further developments

 

[Defiant]

"First of all, I apologize about the confusion and convenience this has
caused."

Yeah. They'd hate to cause any convenience.

Sucking goddamned bureaucracies.

Great work on keeping us posted.

 

[jrprich]

"First of all, I apologize about the confusion and convenience this has
caused."

Yeah. They'd hate to cause any convenience.

Sucking goddamned bureaucracies.

Great work on keeping us posted.

Well the EPA guy IS trying to help me out so I will forgive him the typo.
I figure the only folks with a big enough stick to get Chrysler off their asses would be the EPA. And while it took them three weeks to reply, he does sound like he gets it and will take the case to someone in Chrysler that might actually resolve this in my favor.

So time will tell...........or so I hope

 

[Bigglesworth87]

Thats really awesome. It would be really great if this works out. The monitor problem is one of the main reason's why I sold my 2g. If this changes things for the better, I might have to pick up another 2g in the future.