My old highschool car

[OhhShmit]

Also brotha should I be running octane booster since my small town only has 91 or is it fine?

 

[We're on Boost]

Also brotha should I be running octane booster since my small town only has 91 or is it fine?

I think try it for a while just on straight 91. It would be better if you could just live with it on 91 because then your fuel will always be the same. The dilution won't be changing all over the place every time you add fuel or booster. Tune it to be safe on 91. If you have a front mount intercooler on it now, that will help a lot. You can always try booster later.

The method I wrote in post #374, when you pick "Save to ECU" it saves just that one page that you are on.

When you are just looking at direct access in a log, the button that is in that same position on the page says "Copy to ECU".
I bet if you have a log that you saved with some changes made, you could open that log up with the laptop in the car, KeyOn and Connected, and go to that page and pick "Copy to ECU" and it would probably copy just that one page to the ecu.
Just a guess! I've never done it that way. I hate screwing around with stuff like that if I haven't read copiously about it first.

 

[OhhShmit]

So I saved it and it added a file to my desktop, when I click into it it’s the log I edited the way you told me to which is a plus! I haven’t tried it yet as I’m trying to get my youngest to even get an ounce of tired in him Lol! But just to clarify click “ Copy to ECU” not the “ Copy All To ECU” ?

 

[We're on Boost]

So I saved it and it added a file to my desktop, when I click into it it’s the log I edited the way you told me to which is a plus! I haven’t tried it yet as I’m trying to get my youngest to even get an ounce of tired in him Lol! But just to clarify click “ Copy to ECU” not the “ Copy All To ECU” ?

Yes. The other one, Copy All, would copy all the settings from all the pages.

 

[OhhShmit]

Okay so added the tune and it uploaded! Did a 10 second log to verify and it stayed! started the car and no problem! Now Question I noticed in the log the idle is set at 850 now the cars idling at about 1000 is that acceptable?

And sometimes when your coming to a stop the car will idle down really low for a couple seconds then pack back up to normal idle, Do you have a idea on what that could possibly be?

 

[We're on Boost]

Okay so added the tune and it uploaded! Did a 10 second log to verify and it stayed! started the car and no problem! Now Question I noticed in the log the idle is set at 850 now the cars idling at about 1000 is that acceptable?

Ahh good.
As for the idle speed, normally if you really wanted it to idle at 850 you would just turn in the BISS screw (clockwise) a little bit. But 1000 is ok. I would just leave it idling at 1000 because you are having this problem:

And sometimes when your coming to a stop the car will idle down really low for a couple seconds then pack back up to normal idle, Do you have an idea on what that could possibly be?

That's a common problem and I don't know what the whole checklist of things is that can cause it.
This is like when you are rolling along and you take your foot off the gas and put the clutch in and maybe put it in neutral, the revs drop fast and the engine just dies or almost dies, right?
A while back we raised the Coasting FC Offset to 1000 rpm to try to alleviate that problem. (It's in the RPM/TPS tab)
The idea is that when you are cruising along at say 3000 rpm and then you take your foot off the gas, about 0.75 seconds after you take your foot off the gas, your InjOn time will go to 0 (injectors shut off). Let's say you also put the clutch in right after you take your foot off the gas. The engine revs will drop fast. Now the injectors are supposed to come back on at some rpm so that it will just settle into an idle. If the injectors don't come back on soon enough, you end up having this problem that you are having. Increasing the Coasting Fuel Cut Offset makes the injectors come back on sooner (at a higher rpm) as the revs are dropping, hopefully soon enough to get things wet with fuel again in there so the engine doesn't quit running.

I think for now, you can try this:
Keep the Coasting FC Offset at 1000 rpm (that's already pretty high).
Raise your target idle to 1000 rpm.

This should get your injectors turned back on way up there, at about 2000 rpm, when you are decelerating and/or when you put the clutch in.

With it like this, let's say now you are slowing down for a stop and you want to just put the clutch in and brake to a gradual normal stop in neutral. After you take your foot off the gas, don't put the clutch in until you see your revs drop below 2000. Because now you know that the injectors will already be back on before you put the clutch in.
We can check that in a log. So log a drive that is long enough to show a few decelerations. Do some decels where you put the clutch in right away (at kind of a high rpm) and do some decels where you don't put the clutch in until revs are low, ~2000.
In the log we can look to see where the injectors really turn back on.
In the car you can see if it helps to not put the clutch in until lower rpm.

I looked for this in your Sept 28 log but I didn't see any decels that would show me. And I didn't see any places where the rpm dropped below idle speed.

Another thing that might help with it:
We aren't getting ISC Position in the logs. I think we determined before that this just isn't in V3Lite. But look for it in Edit, Captured Values.

And look at this, from the V3Lite to V3 comparison table:

This says that V3Lite doesn't have the "Idle air simulation" feature.
I've never used it and I don't know if it would help, but it's there in V3, just not in V3Lite.

 

[We're on Boost]

While looking at your Sept 28 log I noticed that you do have one pull that goes all the way up to 105% injector duty cycle! Sheesh missed that before. That's at 496.5 seconds.

So there, injectors are maxed out.
MAF is close to maxed out (around 2000 Hz) but we don't really know how far we can use the MAF yet because it seems to be flowing a little more than stock due to the 2 little hacks that it has. But stock the limit is around 2000 Hz.

Load Factor hit 2.0 at 5490 rpm. Did you happen to notice what the boost gauge went up to there?

And there was no knock on that pull. Yay. Coolant temp was 196 which helps, that's not high.

You were only on about 55% throttle.
So, it's rarin' to go, it's just running out of some things.
It's going to need better boost control at some point.

As it is, you can't push it any harder than you did on that pull, because it will start to go lean and probably then knock.

 

[OhhShmit]

According to the log 16 psi, So with that being said I have the injectors and fuel pump ready to be installed. But I was under the impression once I install them I absolutely can’t drive the car until I get a proper tune. Once again I’m daily driving the car and want it to be as safe as possible, Considering my 6y old son loves traveling with dad! Now if I put the injectors and fuel pump in how would I go at that point on getting you an accurate log? How would I go about getting a boost controller or is that something we can add in ECMLink to cap it at a certain boost level?

 

[OhhShmit]

Monday I will be installing the injectors and fuel pump boss, Could you briefly tell me after we install them what I should be doing on ECMLink to insure the changes?

 

[We're on Boost]

I have the injectors and fuel pump ready to be installed. But I was under the impression once I install them I absolutely can’t drive the car until I get a proper tune. Once again I’m daily driving the car and want it to be as safe as possible, Considering my 6y old son loves traveling with dad!

You can drive the car after you change the "Global fuel" setting on the Fuel tab.

But wait, the fuel pump. You can't really use the Walbro 255 fuel pump until you put an adjustable fuel pressure regulator in the car. I don't see AFPR listed on the spec page for the car, and as I remember, there isn't one on the car yet. It is still using the stock fuel pressure regulator, I think.

The stock regulator gets overrun by the Walbro so it doesn't actually work. I think it might actually wreck the stock regulator.
As I remember, this was one of the things that was holding Nick up on putting in the injectors and the fuel pump. Because the regulator costs about $200. Plus hose and fittings.

I think once you get started on this stuff, the car will be down for a while, because it will take a while to get the stuff for the regulator and install it. Hose and AN type fittings you know!

The regulator I'd suggest getting is the one I use, which is the Fuelab 515 series.
That one exactly. Has size 6AN ports for the fuel fittings. Several colors available.
I've had mine on the car for, calculator please, 16 years! Since 2009. It's been perfect. I set it at 43 psi base pressure when I put it on, and I've never had to reset it, it's still at 43 psi.

It has a total of 5 ports:
2 fuel inlet ports (one on each end, you block one off with an AN plug).
1 fuel outlet port on the bottom, for the return line.
1 pipe thread port on the front for a pressure gauge.
1 air port in the upper body for the vacuum/boost hose.

You have to mount it somewhere on the firewall and run hoses to it.
I'll post pictures of how mine looks. I have mine on a standoff that stands it off quite a ways from the firewall because there are a lot of old junky wires and cables there that I've never taken the time to sort through and remove. It's not ideal. Because it comes close to the slider slot thingie on the back of the intake manifold that the throttle cable bolts to. If you use a standoff at all, make it one that doesn't come out very far from the firewall. You need a lot of space between the back of the intake manifold and the regulator so you can put a gauge on the front of the regulator and still have some space there.
I recommend, don't leave the gauge in there all the time anyway. Once you are done setting fuel pressure and it seems to be stable, take the gauge out and put a pipe plug in there with some thread sealant.
But if you take the car for a drive with the gauge in there, remember that when you get on the gas, the top of the engine tilts rearward (torque reaction). If you have stock motor mounts which are soft, it will move quite a bit. I did ruin my first gauge that way, because mine is too close.

STM shows a nice little gauge on the regulator page but it is pretty expensive.
For a few bucks less you can buy a Marshall Instruments CW00100 Liquid Filled Fuel Pressure Gauge from Amazon. Hmm it isn't that much cheaper whaddya know. Anyway, good pics there of what it should be like, pipe thread size and so-forth.

Well I'm going to post this thing before the internet goes down, which happens sometimes around this time of night. Or maybe it's the dsmtuners servers that go down. But I'll come back later and put up some pics of my Fuelab regulator install for reference.

Oh, another way to go where you can still use the stock regulator is to use a Walbro 190 fuel pump, which is considered kind of a stock replacement, so it won't go much farther than the stock pump. It's enough to run like probably 550cc injectors. But of course you could run bigger injectors with it too, if bigger injectors is what you have. I had some things to say about that back in post #285.

 

[OhhShmit]

Okay so the Walbro 190 fuel pump is only $90! Yay!! So just to clarify before I start ordering everything. Scrap the current pump I have and order this one and use the injectors we have and also get a fuel pressure regulator? Then install make the adjustments and go. To clarify also I’m not really aiming to make more boost or have a monster of a car. To be fair I just want something safe and fun at the same time for daily/Weekend fun.

Also I do have this ready to go also could I just use this?

 

[kyler021]

Also I do have this ready to go also could I just use this?

I personally would not cheap out on an eBay Fuel Pressure Regulator. That being said, I have done 0 research on eBay FPRs, but it's an important enough part that I wouldn't go cheap, given that Aeromotive / Fuelab are so popular. It may be fine, and I could be just exaggerating a little bit, but when in doubt just search "ebay fuel pressure regulator reliability 2g dsm" or something of that nature.

 

[OhhShmit]

Absolutely boss thank you! I guess I’ll just have to spend the 200 and get the one Gary posted. I just thought since I already had it be worth a shot

 

[We're on Boost]

So just to clarify before I start ordering everything. Scrap the current pump I have and order this one and use the injectors we have and also get a fuel pressure regulator?

No, if you use a Walbro 190 pump you won't need a fancy regulator. You could use the stock regulator. That is according to what people have said in here over the years. I haven't tried it myself.
If you go that way you can go ahead and install the 1000cc injectors and change the Global Fuel number in ECMlink.
If you do it that way we won't be able to tell that you are running out of fuel just by looking at the Inj Duty cycle like we are doing now. With 1000cc injectors you'd probably be running out of fuel by the time Inj Duty cycle hits about 50%. You would be running out of fuel pump. That would happen at a higher power output than what you have now. But we wouldn't even know it unless you have a wideband gauge and are logging it, and that is still not ideal because you would see it after the fact, when you look at the log afterwards. Or if you were logging fuel pressure, but that's probably not going to happen due to lack of inputs in the ecu. It's more important to have a wideband, so the input that is available should be used for a wideband. You should have a wideband anyway, no matter what way you go with pumps and regulators.
The MAF, because it has mild hacks, will probably go about as far as the Walbro 190 will take you.

If you are going to install a fuel pressure regulator anyway, then you should use the Walbro 255 pump.
That way is a little less tricky for tuning I think, because you won't run out of fuel. Running out of fuel is dangerous because you go lean when you run out of fuel and that will cause knock, which is about the worst thing there is.
So that way, you won't run out of fuel, mainly we just have to watch for knock, like always.
But you would run out of MAF at about the same power level that the 190 fuel pump would run out of fuel. If you wanted to go beyond that power level, you would need to replace the MAF with Speed Density, which uses a MAP sensor and an IAT sensor and some more complicated tuning.

Either way we would need to control the boost to a level that doesn't cause knock.
Boost control is a whole subject all by itself. But there is one thing actually wrong with your boost control right now, and that is that when you are at part throttle, like your logs have had around 50 - 60% throttle pulls, you aren't actually getting minimum boost because the actuator hose is connected to the intake manifold. When you are at part throttle, the air pressure in the manifold is lower than it is at the turbo outlet. So there is less pressure for opening the wastegate than there should be. Perversely, if you go WOT, then this problem kind of disappears. Or I guess what's perverse is that you might actually have more boost at part throttle than you do at WOT.

I think there is actually another thing wrong, and that is the spring that is in the wastegate actuator acts like it's pretty stiff, which makes it impossible to run really low boost. But we don't actually know what psi that spring is. Maybe it will be ok, maybe it's just the hose routing that is wrong.

The best way to control boost is with an electronic boost controller like what we have in the Full version of V3 (V3Lite doesn't have it) and an Ingersoll Rand 3-port boost control solenoid. The upgrade to Full V3 doesn't cost much. The solenoid doesn't cost much either. It would be some wiring. The basic hookup looks like this:

The guy in that video does really a pretty good job explaining this stuff. His explanation for this one is here (level 4).
The method we are trying to do now on your car is just a hose, which he calls Level 1 and he explains it at 1:00 in the vid. It is the way to get minimum boost. Notice the hose goes to the turbo outlet, not the intake manifold. You wouldn't have to run it to the turbo - it could go to a hose barb on the intercooler piping that is between the turbo and the intercooler, or even the upper intercooler piping would be better than on the intake manifold.
Then at 2:46 in the vid (Level 2) he explains manual boost controllers, which are worth knowing about but I don't think they are the way to go once you go beyond just a hose.

There is no boost controller that can make your boost lower than the hose-only minimum boost hookup. The boost controller can only add boost.

 

[CrackedDSM]

FYI the eBay regulators like shown can be rebuilt using a $50 authentic diaphragm from Aeromotive, and it makes them as good as the real stuff for half the cost.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001O09XBM Buy this and that eBay regulator, rebuild it soon as it gets to you, and enjoy.

 

[We're on Boost]

I just found the Road Race Engineering fuel pump comparison chart. This is great stuff.
It turns out the Walbro 190 is a little better than I thought.
It flows about 90% more than the stock 1g pump.
It flows about 20% more than the stock Evo 8 pump.
The stock Evo 8 injectors are 560cc, and the car was pretty fast.
So with a 190 pump, you'd probably have enough fuel for 650cc injectors?
And given that you are "not really aiming to make more boost or have a monster of a car" I think the 190 with the stock regulator and the 1000cc injectors would be the cheapest and easiest way to go. Easier setup for sure since you need to change that fuel pump that's in there anyway if it's the stock one. The MAF would be your limiting factor. You would still have the option to go speed density if you wanted to.

What do you think @Justin DuBois ? This chart is probably pretty accurate isn't it? Looks like it's from 2006. Is that when you were there?
Do you know if the stock 1g regulator gets wonky at 57 psi of fuel pressure? (20 psi of boost) Or another way to ask it, will the 1:1 rise be way off by that point?

 

[OhhShmit]

Okay so something like this to replace the MAF and order the Walbro 190 and throw all them in? Also I have been at it for over a hour, HOW THE HELL DO I UPGRADE TO V3 ! I Noticed and I was on the wrong download and just updated it to the 3.26.35 latest firmware if that helps anything. And yes like I said I want the car to be fun but reliable also, I’m not looking for a race car more of a daily with enough power to have fun without hurting anything. And would you recommend me staying MAF for now or just switching also?

I’m assuming this is what we will be using when time comes for the speed density?

 

[Justin DuBois]

I just found the Road Race Engineering fuel pump comparison chart. This is great stuff.
It turns out the Walbro 190 is a little better than I thought.
It flows about 90% more than the stock 1g pump.
It flows about 20% more than the stock Evo 8 pump.
The stock Evo 8 injectors are 560cc, and the car was pretty fast.
So with a 190 pump, you'd probably have enough fuel for 650cc injectors?
And given that you are "not really aiming to make more boost or have a monster of a car" I think the 190 with the stock regulator and the 1000cc injectors would be the cheapest and easiest way to go. Easier setup for sure since you need to change that fuel pump that's in there anyway if it's the stock one. The MAF would be your limiting factor. You would still have the option to go speed density if you wanted to.

What do you think @Justin DuBois ? This chart is probably pretty accurate isn't it? Looks like it's from 2006. Is that when you were there?
Do you know if the stock 1g regulator gets wonky at 57 psi of fuel pressure? (20 psi of boost) Or another way to ask it, will the 1:1 rise be way off by that point?

Yeah - I ran the Denso 260 LPH Supra Pump for a long while before I switched to E85.

 

[We're on Boost]

I’m assuming this is what we will be using when time comes for the speed density?

Yes. Although we'd take a look at Justin Dubois table which goes to 100 and maybe use his instead of the one in your pic. If you have 2 logs sitting side by side on your screen, both open to that Speed Density page, it's easy to copy and paste the entire table from one log to the other and save it.

HOW THE HELL DO I UPGRADE TO V3

Use this ecmtuning page page. That tells you how to create a firmware request and email it to them, etc. It's only $125.

And would you recommend me staying MAF for now or just switching also?

Well I'd recommend not trying to do everything at once. Just because if you change too many things all at once and there's a problem with it, it might be harder to figure out what the heck is wrong
You could change all the fuel stuff at once, that would make sense. Then get the car running and drive it a little to check logs. You could do all that on the stock MAF.
Then you could do the conversion to speed density. Adjusting things in speed density could take a while, and you should have the fuel system sorted out before starting to mess with it.

That reminds me, nobody has seen inside the tank yet, right? We don't know what you're going to find in there as far as condition of things, rust, etc.

Okay so something like this to replace the MAF and order the Walbro 190 and throw all them in?

Well, I wouldn't get that ebay sensor kit. I mean it's got the right type of sensors in it but they are mystery sensors as far as the brand and so-forth. I've been helping a guy in PMs who was trying to use an ebay sensor for fuel pressure. Burned up a lot of time trying to get it to work. It never did. He finally bought a regular known sensor. None of this mystery stuff. When it comes to the MAP sensor, even one of the "known" ones has been getting a bad rep lately. So that's a whole subject. I think don't buy those speed density sensors yet until you've delved into the sensor issues a little bit first.

The Omni-Power 4-bar is the one that has recently been questionable, which is too bad since it was a mainstay item for years and it only costs about $100 and it is the one in the SD kit offered by ECMtuning.

The AEM 3.5 bar stainless MAP sensor (AEM part # 30-2130-50) seems to be the most reliable one for anyone who isn't going to go over about 34 psi of boost. They cost $168 to $189 depending on where you buy it from. I actually bought mine from the AEM Store on Amazon where it is $168 at the moment. You can also buy them straight from AEM where they are $189 at the moment.
Mounting the AEM is a little more work because it's not just some flat thing that you can attach with screws. It needs a bracket with a hole that you put the AEM nose through basically. I show how I mounted mine with a photo in my build thread on page 2. That photo doesn't show it very well. On page 3 I have pics of the oil pressure sensor which is mounted the same way, same type of sensor. My MAP on page 2 was a 5-bar AEM, but I've replaced that with the 3.5 bar AEM.

 

[OhhShmit]

Okay sorry for asking so many questions, I just want to make sure I’m not misunderstanding and doing anything wrong. So for now just strictly focus on the fuel pump and injectors correct? And no I have yet to look at the fuel tank or filter. I planned on doing all that when the pump gets here which I ordered today.

 

[We're on Boost]

Regarding the Walbro 190 - don't buy one until we figure out why STM says it only fits the FWD 1g's not the AWD 1g's. I think it's the clocking of the inlet and outlet pipes. I don't know.
But take a look at the STM pages. I usually go with what they say. Their info is generally reliable and they show good pics.
STM search results for Walbro 190 LPH
That gives you 6 search results.
Look at the one for just the pump, and look at the one that is for the pump plus install kit for 1g DSM. They all say for FWD only.

 

[OhhShmit]

Yeah absolutely I do see that well shit now I’m stumped on what to do . I’ll go ahead and request a refund for the pump. Screw my life I just want this damn thing to run good without worrying if I will blow it up . I guess I’ll fall back to plan 1 and go ahead and get the new trans and struts put on for now.

 

[We're on Boost]

I planned on doing all that when the pump gets here which I ordered today.

I think you should try to cancel your order for the Walbro 190 until we get this homework all sorted out better.

 

[OhhShmit]

I think you should try to cancel your order for the Walbro 190 until we get this homework all sorted out better.

Sounds good boss, I’m sorry for the constant blowing up of the post everyday. I know I keep saying it but I want to keep the car healthy an running correctly! I didn’t get the car to blow up in a few months because of careless neglect .

 

[We're on Boost]

Right now I'm going to have some coffee and take a break and get outside for a while.
Yesterday I couldn't keep up with this because I had to sort out why I was getting "the license terms error" which was crashing my update from Win 10 to Win 11, and I had to get headlights replaced on my daily car, and I needed to drive my Talon cuz the weather was nice!