My new setup, what do you think? 11 sec GST

[dsm-onster]

Properly slipping and feathring the throttle is imperative with launching in FWD. This mean LOTS O'HEAT! My two street style performance disks didn't last long. ACT and Competition Clutch. Which clutch disk is he running? You'll probably want to look into a high heat capable disk. A quality 6 puck center sprung would do the trick.

This will fit the bill: 6 button E-Z Lock (sprung hub) clutch for Mitsubishi Eclipse

There are others of course.

Again, a clutch is not neccesary but the high heat and hard slipping required for good 60 ft times will severly shorten the life of even a street performance disk. Your slipping action at the pedal will change and the clutch will be more "finicky" or "sticky". But, It WILL slip when you want and hold when you want.

 

[pneumo]

I agree with dsm-onster, you'll need a good clutch. I fried an ACT 2100 in about 6 or 7 track sessions when I was racing my fwd Laser. It had lsd, drag radials, mild suspension setup and a 16g. Everyone said I didn't need anything more since I had fwd and a small turbo, but the clutch couldn't handle the slippage that's needed when launching a fwd.

 

[Nelsons91AWD]

Hmmm he does have an ACT 2600...

Wouldnt that fit the bill?

 

[dsm-onster]

the 2600 number refers to the presure plate clamping force. That's why I asked what DISK he has.

The street performance act clutch disk that comes w/ the 2600 kit sheared in two pieces w/ my set up (hub broke clean from the friction surface).

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

This was w/in 1000 DD miles and w/ the revised springs. This happened after 4 runs slipping the clutch enough to get the practice for sub 2 second 60 fts. It grabbed fine until the 3rd run where it slipped in the top of second (i noticed at a certain throttle position, I had traction and the rpms were climbing higher than what I had been used to). In the 4th run, it sheared.

How can a slipping clutch that cannot convert much torque though the tranny shaft just pop? I suspect high heat contributed. But nevertheless, it slipped in the 3rd run and broke in the 4th.

BTW, I set my scanmaster to view TPS and shoot for a target tps reading at a target rpm to yield more consistancy. I've tossed around maybe viewing airflow w/ dsmlink so that I know exactly what HP I am allowed to put down w/ my setup before I blow the wheels. So no matter what the temp is or what my tune is, barring anymore suspension upgrades, I will know waht my approximate limit is at that moment. AND to get a better baseline to demonstrate any apparent results w/ following upgrades.

 

[dsm-onster]

I agree with dsm-onster, you'll need a good clutch. I fried an ACT 2100 in about 6 or 7 track sessions when I was racing my fwd Laser. It had lsd, drag radials, mild suspension setup and a 16g. Everyone said I didn't need anything more since I had fwd and a small turbo, but the clutch couldn't handle the slippage that's needed when launching a fwd.

Let me guess. The small turbo leant to quick, neck-snapping early torque, the slipping had to be incresed to negate the wheelhop or just blowing the traction clean.

I ate a Competition Cutch disc w/ my SMALL 16G. Modifying the front control arm position geometry REALLY helps the fwd dsm. There's just so much brake anti-dive dialed into the front. Changing the gometry to cause the front wheels to track even though the front lifts will do three things:

1. It will negate wheel hop which is related to the resonance between the front springs through the delta in the torque on the front suspension from the front weight (referenced at the Center of Gravity). There's alot more to this.
2. If the geometry is modified correctly, the net force forward will press the tires into the pavement reducing the loss of contact patch casued by the weight transefer to the rear.
3. It will lend to contact width consistancy. Consistancy is almost as important as contact width, WRT fwd platforms

FWD dsms aren't THAT bad w/ traction. It's just that they are sooo overshadowed by their AWD counterparts. Which have the rwd squat PLUS the great fwd traction dialed in.

-the FWD DSM has demostrated more traction than many other make fwd cars
-My fwd dsm has demostrated more traction than my rwd turbo coup w/ stock undercarraige.
-It obviously can be modified to "bite" enough to break my act street performance disk.

 

[pneumo]

Let me guess. The small turbo leant to quick, neck-snapping early torque, the slipping had to be incresed to negate the wheelhop or just blowing the traction clean.

I ate a Competition Cutch disc w/ my SMALL 16G. Modifying the front control arm position geometry REALLY helps the fwd dsm. There's just so much brake anti-dive dialed into the front. Changing the gometry to cause the front wheels to track even though the front lifts will do three things:

1. It will negate wheel hop which is related to the resonance between the front springs through the delta in the torque on the front suspension from the front weight (referenced at the Center of Gravity). There's alot more to this.
2. If the geometry is modified correctly, the net force forward will press the tires into the pavement reducing the loss of contact patch casued by the weight transefer to the rear.
3. It will lend to contact width consistancy. Consistancy is almost as important as contact width, WRT fwd platforms

FWD dsms aren't THAT bad w/ traction. It's just that they are sooo overshadowed by their AWD counterparts. Which have the rwd squat PLUS the great fwd traction dialed in.

-the FWD DSM has demostrated more traction than many other make fwd cars
-My fwd dsm has demostrated more traction than my rwd turbo coup w/ stock undercarraige.
-It obviously can be modified to "bite" enough to break my act street performance disk.

I've thought about modding the front control arm pivots to add more weight on the front tires, but haven't heard of changing the angle to help the tires dig in. How did you change it? Just lower the rear/raise the front?

 

[dsm-onster]

Just lower the rear. It's easier becasue you can fab up some spacers but the front seams to need to be cut and rewelded. I think as long as you get a good angle, it shouldn't matter.

I'm thinking . I don't understand what you would do to the joints to cause more weight to rest on the front? Does it involve manipulating the upper and/or lower shock joint?

 

[pneumo]

I'm thinking . I don't understand what you would do to the joints to cause more weight to rest on the front? Does it involve manipulating the upper and/or lower shock joint?

Sure, just move the control arm back. It's easier if you already have poly bushings in the control arm. The front pivot of the front control arm has two 1/4" rubber washers on either side, just take one off the back and move it in front, then shave down the rear control arm pivot by 1/4" to match the front pivot. It's not much but if it's a race car it'll help a little.

The upper strut tower is easy. Just slot the 3 mounting holes with a roundfile. There's enough room to slide the upper strut mount back about 1/4". While you're in there the holes can be moved toward the center of the car by 1/8" to elimiate the positive camber that these cars come with stock.

I did some rough calculations once and figured these changes would add about 15 pounds on the front tires. It's not much, only about 1/2% change in front/rear weight distribution.

 

[dsm-onster]

The upper strut tower is easy. Just slot the 3 mounting holes with a roundfile. There's enough room to slide the upper strut mount back about 1/4". While you're in there the holes can be moved toward the center of the car by 1/8" to elimiate the positive camber that these cars come with stock.

This is interesting. Negative camber can yield moer contact patch area because of font lift. . . I suspect enough to maximise the contact patch area during acceleration w/ significant power would be too much for a DD (cut the inside of the tire). BUT! If it can be made "indexed" so that you can put the suspension straight again. . .

Of course, similar results can be achieved when lowering the car.

 

[Nelsons91AWD]

This is interesting. Negative camber can yield moer contact patch area because of font lift. . . I suspect enough to maximise the contact patch area during acceleration w/ significant power would be too much for a DD (cut the inside of the tire). BUT! If it can be made "indexed" so that you can put the suspension straight again. . .

Of course, similar results can be achieved when lowering the car.

Very interesting, i havent heard of doing this before.

Phizzles car is lowred with Tokiko springs 1.5 Inches would that give the car similar results or should we try to do what has been mentioned in the last three posts....


also is there a write up, or how to with specific steps on how to do this modification?

 

[dsm-onster]

Very interesting, i havent heard of doing this before.

Phizzles car is lowred with Tokiko springs 1.5 Inches would that give the car similar results or should we try to do what has been mentioned in the last three posts....


also is there a write up, or how to with specific steps on how to do this modification?

Do both. Have you seen a 450whp FWD car lift w/out a traction bar in back?

. . . OR better to say. Lower the car because it will shorten the CG lever arm against the chassis that causes weight transfer in the first place. That probably won't give you enough negative camber to keep the tires flat coming out of the hole. You then slot the holes like pneumo suggests and TUNE the camber for your HP level and particular suspension to create a "square" or rectangular contact patch. The faster the 60' the more square the patch. If your various 60' times peak then get worse, then you know you're beginning to overdo the negative camber.

Dropping the rear connection of the front control arm will just yield the added bonus of mainitaining the thickness of the contact patch by encouraging the tires to "dig". Getting a consistant "square" patch to "dig" applies to FWD & RWD.

LORD! I need my clutch disk delivered now!

 

[dsm-onster]

I've also been toying w/ the idea lowering the enitire engine and crossmember assembly. This would yield more negative camber and also lower the CG hight even more...

The crossmember at the fire wall has the rear rollstop attached. the "submember" (I believe?) has the front roll stop attached. The "submember" and cross memeber connect to form a T at the center of the crossmember. The submember has another connection point at the radiator support.

Lower the whole engine/tranny assembly by adding equal thickness spacers at the:

1. Crossmember outer connection points to the unibody (where the rear conenction of the control arm is)
2. "submember" front connection point onto the lower radiator support
3. Tranny mount
4. Engine mount (driver's side)

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You'll lower the heaviest assembly in the car lowering CG height and you'll create more negative camber as the two control arm chassis connections go down relative to the wheel connection. . .

Keep in mind that all this negative camber is KILLING the tires. . . for daily driving. Finding a way to dial out the "-" camber would be best for a DD. Then resetting for track day.

 

[pneumo]

Very interesting, i havent heard of doing this before.

Phizzles car is lowred with Tokiko springs 1.5 Inches would that give the car similar results or should we try to do what has been mentioned in the last three posts....

Tokico springs? OH that's right, you're asking about a 2G! I completely forgot! The info I gave about slotting the upper strut tower mount would only work on a 1G since it has a strut type front suspension. The 2G has upper and lower unequal length control arms, it's completely different. I was being responsible by checking the cars listed under everyones username and we all have first gens. I forgot we were talking about Phizzle99gst. Oops.

 

[dsm-onster]

Still good info . I spaced on the model, too. But tweeking the lower control arm still applies. The lower arm rear joint of the 2g can "accept" a spacer w/ the proper application of imagination just like a 1G.

If there's a joint, then it CAN be manipulated.

 

[Nelsons91AWD]

Hmm i was looking at this guys setup and times times

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/member.php?u=50028

and its making me wonder....

I Called the Shop yesterday for a quote on all the Labor/parts/dyno tuning on the car I am waiting to hear back, they should let me know today.....


but also saw this

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/member.php?u=6587


this guy is making 415 WHP and running 11s (slicks/racegas)

They times for these FWD cars are all over the place!!

 

[Nelsons91AWD]

Hmm The shop said that they think we should Ditch the Manifold, Internal wastegate, and 02 Housing.

And upgrade all of that to reach the goals....

 

[dsm-onster]

They times for these FWD cars are all over the place!!

It takes touch and lots o` practice to get a FWD out of the hole w/ a decent 60 ft time. . .

Look at their 60 ft difference. that .15 seconds coming out of the hole compounds itself by the end of the run. besides the 11 sec guy has: "Precision turbo SCM61 turbo, Garrett GT40 compressor wheel/ t350 turbine wheel". He trap speed is almost 10 mph faster. He's running lots more power.

Hmm The shop said that they think we should Ditch the Manifold, Internal wastegate, and 02 Housing.

The 11 sec guy is running around 450whp. Simple Horsepower Calculator. So Can your setup deliver at least that? I havn't seen a evoIII put that much down. . . On the other hand, I HAVE seen a stock 1G intake manifold, OTHER internal gate turbos, and a 2g o2 housing do this.

680s won't provide the fuel for a HP level that merits upgrading to a SMIM and an externally gated turbo. . . I wonder why they didn't mention thisWTF ?

 

[Nelsons91AWD]

It takes touch and lots o` practice to get a FWD out of the hole w/ a decent 60 ft time. . .

Look at their 60 ft difference. that .15 seconds coming out of the hole compounds itself by the end of the run. besides the 11 sec guy has: "Precision turbo SCM61 turbo, Garrett GT40 compressor wheel/ t350 turbine wheel". He trap speed is almost 10 mph faster. He's running lots more power.


The 11 sec guy is running around 450whp. Simple Horsepower Calculator. So Can your setup deliver at least that? I havn't seen a evoIII put that much down. . . On the other hand, I HAVE seen a stock 1G intake manifold, OTHER internal gate turbos, and a 2g o2 housing do this.

680s won't provide the fuel for a HP level that merits upgrading to a SMIM and an externally gated turbo. . . I wonder why they didn't mention thisWTF ?

Bro your looking at my profile not Phizzle99GST's

His mods are....

Apexi 3" Downpipe, Apexi 3" full exhaust, 3" custom intake, Defi Boost Gauge, FMIC, 2.5" IC Piping, HKS ssqv BOV, Hallman boost controller, NGK BPR7ES Spark Plugs, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, 1g Fuel Rail, Buschur SX AFPR Kit, Walbro 255 fuel pump, 10 Guage fuel pump rewire, 2 G Ported exhaust mani, 2 G ported o2 housing, short shift kit, balance shaft removed, Precision SCM-3431E 57 Trim turbo/cut divider , Precision 880cc Injectors, act 2600 clutch, MAFT 3" GM MAS, DSM Link, 12" slimline fans, 180 degree thermoustat
ADR/limited ricochet's gunmetal w/polished lip, 225/45/17's kumho 712's, Quaife LSD, Tokico adjustable shocks and lowering springs, Prothane Motor Mounts

 

[dsm-onster]

Sorry.

But still. . . I have to stick w/ what I already mentioned. He needs around 450 hp. I have seen a stock 1G intake manifold, OTHER internal gate turbos, and a 2g o2 housing do this.

Here's the 11 second guys suspension mods. . .

"SUSPENSION & BRAKING FRONT AND REAR POLISHED STRUT TOWER BARS KYB AGX ADJUSTABLE STRUTS EIBACH SPORTLINE PERFORMANCE SPRINGS ENERGY SUSPENSION SUSPENSION BUSHINGS POWERSTOP CROSS-DRILLED ROTORS AXIS BRAKE PADS WHEELS AND TIRES 18x7.5 CHARCOAL ADR VALKARI 235/40/18 NITTO 555 TIRES"​

No mention of suspension suspension linkage modification. He does have a lower CG and consequently has modified his front camber as a consequence. But no mention of antilift work or actual camber dial-in.

btw, I'll need to get to the track now that I've gotten my car back together. I've creamed particular low 12 second cars after hours. This FWD car has gotten a 13.4 w/ stock 180K springs and suspension, stock turbo, 15 psi, stock fuel, stock tires, stock differential, stock weight, stock clutch fw, stock pp. FWD DSMs are not terrible. I've preached this for years. . . But why would anyone give them credit?!! their AWD bretherin are sooo capable.

 

[Nelsons91AWD]

Sorry.

But still. . . I have to stick w/ what I already mentioned. He needs around 450 hp. I have seen a stock 1G intake manifold, OTHER internal gate turbos, and a 2g o2 housing do this.

Here's the 11 second guys suspension mods. . .

"SUSPENSION & BRAKING FRONT AND REAR POLISHED STRUT TOWER BARS KYB AGX ADJUSTABLE STRUTS EIBACH SPORTLINE PERFORMANCE SPRINGS ENERGY SUSPENSION SUSPENSION BUSHINGS POWERSTOP CROSS-DRILLED ROTORS AXIS BRAKE PADS WHEELS AND TIRES 18x7.5 CHARCOAL ADR VALKARI 235/40/18 NITTO 555 TIRES"​

No mention of suspension suspension linkage modification. He does have a lower CG and consequently has modified his front camber as a consequence. But no mention of antilift work or actual camber dial-in.

btw, I'll need to get to the track now that I've gotten my car back together. I've creamed particular low 12 second cars after hours. This FWD car has gotten a 13.4 w/ stock 180K springs and suspension, stock turbo, 15 psi, stock fuel, stock tires, stock differential, stock weight, stock clutch fw, stock pp. FWD DSMs are not terrible. I've preached this for years. . . But why would anyone give them credit?!! their AWD bretherin are sooo capable.

Excellent times man, SO the shop is wanting me to swap out that turbo... but you think i should stick with it?

It would save us money, and be alot less work if we did....

hmmmm...

They are supposed to call me back today with quotes on everything...

 

[dsm-onster]

They are trying to sell you on more hp w/ less traction. Just keep the hp you have and get more traction. We've proven that it don't cost lots. I've seen 57 trims throw out 450+ hp. BUT! not that efficiently (I.E. need great intercooling and/or race fuel or e-85 or water injection). I think a good tune, getting a good water injection kit, and practice will give much mor affordable 11 second results. . . Don't you?

Guys are going to love to flame me for saying this. But, if you can get a 1.9X 60 ft, w/ a fwd then you'll have enough to ALMOST end the 1320 at the same time as an AWD because of the lack of drivetrain loss. . . Now some people will "caveman" the idea and slap more horsepower down like a club. Others will not. . .

Personally, I don't see a SMIM, external wastegate, and 3" 02 Housing yielding a better 60', do you? Perhaps a better trap speed. . .

Since it's been proven all over the forum that guys CAN get 450 or so w/ a similar set up, he should just try to give it his best shot w/ traction and driving skills. THEN, see how much hp he needs to catch back up after the 60'. . .

 

[pneumo]

I agree that you need to hook up. It's easy to get more power out of that setup, just use better race gas, lean it out a little, and use a few more psi of boost.

I still take my fwd Laser to the track a couple times a year. It has decent power, traps around 110mph, but it doesn't hook up at all, so the times suk.

A couple mods you really should do is first get some drag radials. BF Goodrich makes their drag radial in a 225/45x17 and Nitto has their drag radial in 245/45x17 which has a larger diameter. Second, take out as much weight as possible from the back end of the car. Removing weight behind and above the rear axle will actually add weight to the front tires. It's mostly free, and it's mostly easy.

 

[Nelsons91AWD]

I agree that you need to hook up. It's easy to get more power out of that setup, just use better race gas, lean it out a little, and use a few more psi of boost.

I still take my fwd Laser to the track a couple times a year. It has decent power, traps around 110mph, but it doesn't hook up at all, so the times suk.

A couple mods you really should do is first get some drag radials. BF Goodrich makes their drag radial in a 225/45x17 and Nitto has their drag radial in 245/45x17 which has a larger diameter. Second, take out as much weight as possible from the back end of the car. Removing weight behind and above the rear axle will actually add weight to the front tires. It's mostly free, and it's mostly easy.

Hmm, I belive he has a system in the back, so if we pull that. the spare tire and jack. there isnt much more we can do as this is a street car.... is there??

he was planning on using slicks at the track so i think we will be alright there,
What size should we look for when picking some up?

thanks for the replies

 

[pneumo]

Hmm, I belive he has a system in the back, so if we pull that. the spare tire and jack. there isnt much more we can do as this is a street car.... is there??

Sure there's more. It just depends on how much stuff you're willing to sacrafice to reach your goal. I'd recomend removing the spare, jack, tools, sub, and see what kind of times you're getting.

 

[nightspeed87]

They are trying to sell you on more hp w/ less traction. Just keep the hp you have and get more traction. We've proven that it don't cost lots. I've seen 57 trims throw out 450+ hp. BUT! not that efficiently (I.E. need great intercooling and/or race fuel or e-85 or water injection). I think a good tune, getting a good water injection kit, and practice will give much mor affordable 11 second results. . . Don't you?

Guys are going to love to flame me for saying this. But, if you can get a 1.9X 60 ft, w/ a fwd then you'll have enough to ALMOST end the 1320 at the same time as an AWD because of the lack of drivetrain loss. . . Now some people will "caveman" the idea and slap more horsepower down like a club. Others will not. . .

Personally, I don't see a SMIM, external wastegate, and 3" 02 Housing yielding a better 60', do you? Perhaps a better trap speed. . .

Since it's been proven all over the forum that guys CAN get 450 or so w/ a similar set up, he should just try to give it his best shot w/ traction and driving skills. THEN, see how much hp he needs to catch back up after the 60'. . .

I agree..
And Im going to have to look into this antilift and suspension linkage modification for my set up as well. Have you done a significant amount of weight reduction to your car, because it seemed to work for me taking out about 200 lbs helped...

Hmm, I belive he has a system in the back, so if we pull that. the spare tire and jack. there isnt much more we can do as this is a street car.... is there??

he was planning on using slicks at the track so i think we will be alright there,
What size should we look for when picking some up?

thanks for the replies

Since he has a 2g, the weight reduction will be more important.

Things I did to lighten up my car-

Removed everything a/c related, remove charcole canister,
remove all sound deadner in interner, remove rear seats completley,
remove extra metal brackets in various places,
removed all heatshielding under car, removed spare tire, jack, hatch cover,
removed front and rear metal bumpers ( I dont recommend this for your and I did a bumper cut out in the back so I didnt gain wind drag from air scooping up in there.)
and I remove my 12in sub when i know im going to race.

And my interior is still very clean and not too gutted out looking in the way it was done. Yes this is a street car driven here and there.

Everything helps right...