Let's talk about evo turbos on dsms

[quayzar590awd]

If only everything interchanged with flipping this and welding that........

 

[JusMX141]

Can someone confirm weather or not the head flanges on the evo and dsm are the same or different.

Head flanges are indeed identical.

I was helping a buddy with a 4G63T-powered RX7 piece together a turbo and exhaust manifold setup a while back when I discovered that the DSM and Evo 4-9 4G's have the same bolt pattern.

The Evo manifold and turbo would've been perfect for the RX7 with the rear of the engine slammed against the firewall, however the idea was to keep the job as cheap as possible so a used eBay 50-trim and T3 manifold were used. At just 12-15psi the car was deemed to dangerous for the streets as it would loop out everytime boost would hit in third and the project was abandoned.

 

[Gamble97]

Or if someone made a manifold, you could cut off the flange spin it 180* and reweld it. Done and done.

 

[the_mork]

My understanding is that the evoX and evo8/9 turbo manifold flanges were the same so if you use an evo8/9 manifold and an X turbo then it should line up the way we want it although it might be offset oddly. I started a thread on this combination but no one seemed very interested and I lost interest in following it since I have no money right now.

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

The compressor of Steve's turbo is on the passenger side like stock. It's angling back towards the firewall a little bit instead of straight at the fender. It had to be at a weird angle for the wastegate to clear the block. Still has a stock radiator, power steering, alternator and oil filter housing. I'm pretty sure he just bought a DIY flange to make his own o2 housing/downpipe setup. If I'm really nice to him he might let me make a jig for the manifold. I can then send it to ETS or JMF and have more made. I will try to find some pictures of his setup, I took some a while ago I just don't know where they are...

 

[byebyev8]

I don't see how a evo8 turbo can be any better than a evo3 in terms of max power. The e85 e316g guys are making around the same whp as the evo8/9 turbo e85 setup's. Even though most of the e316 guys are running lower compression ratio's. I've been in and raced alot of stock turbo evo's and they don't seem to hit nearly as hard as my e316g around the same boost levels.

 

[Steve93Talon]

My understanding is that the evoX and evo8/9 turbo manifold flanges were the same so if you use an evo8/9 manifold and an X turbo then it should line up the way we want it although it might be offset oddly.

The turbine inlet flange on the X turbo is a mirror image of the 8/9 housing. They won't bolt to each other's manifolds. In my opinion, the X housing is the one to use on a DSM though. It's standard rotation, and it's approx. 12cm2, larger than the 10.5 housing on the IX. Since it's normal rotation, you can pop any DSM style MHI turbo into it (14b/16g/20g). You'd still have to fab a manifold and o2 housing though. That's where the issue really is. Any way you slice it, no EVO 4-10 turbo is a "bolt-on". And unless you have the skills to do the fab work yourself, by the time you're done paying someone you could do a different setup for less money and make more power.

Also, bear in mind that an EVO 10.5cm housing isn't necessarily bigger or better flowing than a 7cm single scroll DSM housing. As mentioned previously, Lucas English and others have made as much power, if not more, on the E316G than on any 8/9 variant. The twin scroll housing was used primarily for spool (negligible - I've seen E316Gs spool at least as fast as any EVO 8/9 turbo) and transient response (the real benefit). So unless you plan on auto-x'ing the car on a really tight course where every millisecond counted, I wouldn't bother going through all the trouble to go twin scroll on such a small turbo.

 

[dsm-onster]

I don't see how a evo8 turbo can be any better than a evo3 in terms of max power. The e85 e316g guys are making around the same whp as the evo8/9 turbo e85 setup's. Even though most of the e316 guys are running lower compression ratio's. I've been in and raced alot of stock turbo evo's and they don't seem to hit nearly as hard as my e316g around the same boost levels.

The key is e85. A much more knock resistant fuel. What was the boost run with these setups? And assuming ALL the other flow mods are the same. That will determine which is better for pump gas. They don't hit as hard because they are boosting earlier. Everyone with a twinscroll setup raves about the smoother yet earlier torque.

The twinscroll housing is technically smaller than the regular 7cm^2 16g housing to the pulses. As each pulse sees 1/2 the housing size being that they are divided. But each pulse is divided and each pulse doesn't contaminate the chamber during overlap, so the smaller housing that the pulses see is negated by these very influential aspects. Still the record is held by lucas english with an evo 8 turbo for MPH/weight horsepower calculations (the most accurate).

The evo10 turbo is where the most advantage is with doing this work. . .

 

[Gamble97]

You guys can't tell me that the evo9 turbo even compares to the 16g. No way.

 

[dsm-onster]

What wheel is on the evo9 turbo? The reverse version of the evo3 wheel? Like the evo8? or what?

 

[DSMunknown]

Here's Leon's version. But he didn't flip his around.


http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/151690144-post36.html

 

[toofast82]

What wheel is on the evo9 turbo? The reverse version of the evo3 wheel? Like the evo8? or what?

Its still the 16g reverse wheel, but the e9 has the 10.5cm housing and a larger compressor housing
here's the model #TD05HR-16G6C-10.5T
Found this on EvoM
How to identify an Evo 9 turbocharger? - evolutionm.net

 

[olmytsi]

This has been done more than a handful of times...

Those evo turbos are more like 50 trims with the size of the housings and the twin scroll, they def make power!

 

[Gamble97]

This has been done more than a handful of times...

Those evo turbos are more like 50 trims with the size of the housings and the twin scroll, they def make power!

Geez at least SOMEONE knows why this is a good idea. Instead of being like everyone else and their mothers w/ a evo3 16g car.

 

[CanadianTSi]

You guys can't tell me that the evo9 turbo even compares to the 16g. No way.

Its still a 16g...

Sure plenty on Evo 9's run fast on the stock turbo, but it isn't only because of the turbo. They have 10 years of engineering improvements that we don't have such as, a better Intake Manifold, Head, and MIVEC to name a few.

Slap an Evo 3 16g on an Evo 9 and it would still be plenty fast, as fast an the Stock 9 Turbo? Probably not, but it wouldn't be that far behind...

 

[Gamble97]

Its still a 16g...

Sure plenty on Evo 9's run fast on the stock turbo, but it isn't only because of the turbo. They have 10 years of engineering improvements that we don't have such as, a better Intake Manifold, Head, and MIVEC to name a few.

Slap an Evo 3 16g on an Evo 9 and it would still be plenty fast, as fast an the Stock 9 Turbo? Probably not, but it wouldn't be that far behind...

Slap an evo9 turbo on an evo8. Has no mivec and it still makes plenty of power.
Regardless this isn't a thread of why it's a bad idea since we can be like everyone else and run the same setup. It's how to!

 

[dsm-onster]

Agreed. Time and research give the bow to the later turbo here. The physics follow the results. But for what? was it built for rally really? or was it built for just more power. There IS a difference. Yet, I've always maintained that the ev3 compressor needs a larger turbine flow than the same turbine wheel used for the stock 5speed dsm. It's just logical. . . MHI built a hybrid when building the e3 16g. A hybrid can make hella power and spool great for those that know how to use it. But in what most can do, reality, they need a better matching wheel for their compressor to meet the goal the compressor could otherwise yield.

Still the evo 8-9 turbo has made better track results, given the weight of the car, than the evo3 turbo. This is with a NON-mivec car with as shitty a manifold as the evo3: the evo8 manifold. And that's with CB in the mix Maybe there's more to a turbo than compressor flow, which is what you all are saying is what would make the difference. I reserve the right to use all my fluid dynamics knowledge and the reinforcement of the masses results to counter your arguement

 

[CanadianTSi]

Regardless this isn't a thread of why it's a bad idea

I never said it was a bad idea, it just doesn't make sense financially.

 

[Gamble97]

So does anyone know someone with an evo that is willing to donate some parts? Or at least sell for dirt cheap?!?
What I would need is:
Ebay manifold (they are $110 new)
evo8 or 9 turbo
evo o2 housing
And I'm assuming the stock turbo is also water cooled so I'll need some OEM evo banjo bolts.

And a downpipe. Prefer one that is not stock, but doesn't really matter.
I'll pay for shipping. I'll also pay for welding unless you know someone that can do it for dirt cheap.

 

[JusMX141]

There are complete Evo 8/9 turbo setups selling cheap on eBay everyday.

I've been in the market for one myself for a project turbo I'm building for a good friend of mine's Evo VIII. Both wheels can be destroyed as long as the housings are good and the journals are tight. I'd prefer the 10.5 hotside.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'd prefer the 10.5 hotside.

You and anyone else pushing their evo to the limit

 

[RedTurboEclipse]

But these evo8-9 turbos are going for cheap since the morons at evom seem to think that twin scroll doesn't work. They really don't care that every single auto manufacturer in the world incorporating turbocharging have migrated to twinscroll tech. "It's just a marketing ploy."

shhh the EVO guys might start to inflate the price once they hear DSM guys will be on the prowl if an easy way to install their old turbos happen.. like their fuel pumps, injectors, etc

I'm all up for being able to use their turbos conveniently, but it might it might still be a while before that "convenience" happens. Someone would really have to invest some time to mass produce manifolds/lines, etc to make an easy affair kit.

 

[RedTurboEclipse]

I got a pm back from Ron Shearer, both the head flanges are one in the same. Meaning the evo manifold will bolt right up to the 2g or 1g head.
Now I has an idea, since the turbo is backwards, what if someone with a cnc machine or some skills can make a plate out of steel say 3/4" thick to where 4 bolts will go up from the bottom of the turbo into the spacer. Then have holes in the spacer to where the manifold would bolt to it, but make it backwards this way you can turn the turbo around and it's facing the correct orentation. Slap on your intake, oil feed and make a oil drain. All you need is an o2 housing to bolt to our downpipe and it's a done deal.
It would be 2 custom pieces.
Then for the o2 housing, buy a megan o2 housing for a dsm and one for a evo. Cut and weld the 2 pieces together.
Ta Da!
If someone could make it, I would test fit it on my car.




Shit, I wish I had a machine shop.

That spacer idea sounds like what was done back in the day with Turbo XS (NOT SSAC/XS Power)' "KILLER" 16g. Spacer was made bolted from underneath.

 

[Steve93Talon]

That spacer idea sounds like what was done back in the day with Turbo XS (NOT SSAC/XS Power)' "KILLER" 16g. Spacer was made bolted from underneath.

Except the TurboXS 16g "kller" was still a clockwise rotation turbo, so it still "tucked" under the manifold. If you flip an 8/9 turbo around so the comp. housing faces the pass. side on a DSM, it's going to stick well past where your radiator is.

 

[the_mork]

I haven't gone out to look at my car but it seems to me like there should be no issue on at least 2gb cars when it comes to space for an intake pipe and MAF if you have a manual transmission since we have a nice fender well to drop into for cold air if we can get past the alternator and PS pump. Automatics like me would be SOL because of the transmission cooler.