Let's talk 4G63 Turbo Oil Feed / Supply Locations- ALL TURBO BRANDS

Artago · Mar 18, 2009

Hi all,

I sent an email to David Hall at Bullseye Power and here's what he had to say about feeding their JB turbos:

Turbos like to see 50-60 psi at max boost, much less at idle of course. Its best to go off the oil filter housing and use a restrictor if necessary. If the turbo isn't smoking then I wouldn't use one, if it is smoking a little then use a .080-.100 restrictor.

Just thought I'd post that up.

Tom

Artago · Mar 18, 2009

babyviper said:
cut the spring until I achieved this number from the block.

How much length did you cut from the spring?

As an alternative, I was thinking of putting in some crush washers under the spring bolt effectively backing out the bolt/spring so I wouldn't have to cut it. Thoughts?

Tom

nicknorth11 · Mar 19, 2009

I'm running a pte 5031re dual bb sourced from the ofh. I use the restrictor that came with it and my b. shafts removed. I've got over 10k miles on the turbo with no ill effects.

nfernotalon · Mar 19, 2009

So does anybody have any info on the supply for the Holsets? Im gonna do my install very soon.

JusMX141 · Mar 19, 2009

Some important info straight from the Holset service manual for the HX's:

- Oil return pipes are permitted to decline at an overall angle of not less than 30 degrees below horizontal. All turbocharger applications require a pipe of internal diameter greater than 19 mm which has integrated connectors. To ensure oil drains into the engine under all operating conditions, the return connection into the engine sump must not be submerged and the outlet flange of the turbocharger must be 50 mm above the maximum oil level of the engine sump pan.

- Crankcase pressure should be limited to 0.8 kPa (0.12 lbf/in2). Pressure above this level should be
referred for further evaluation. Closed crankcase ventilation (CCV) systems are known to operate at
elevated pressure and all applications must be referred for approval.

- Oil pressure of 150 kPa (20 lbf/in2) must show at the turbocharger oil inlet within 3 - 4 seconds of engine firing to prevent damage to turbocharger bearing system. A flexible supply pipe is recommended.

- The minimum oil pressure when the engine is on load must be 210 kPa (30 lbf/in2). Maximum
permissible operating pressure is 500 kPa (72 lbf/in2) although 600 kPa (88 lbf/in2) is permitted during
cold start up. Under idling conditions pressure should not fall below 70 kPa (10 lbf/in2).

So no more than 72psi under normal operation (88psi at cold startup), no less than 30psi under load, minimum of 10psi at idle, and 20psi must be at the turbo within 3-4 seconds of the engine firing.

I'm planning on supplying my HX40 unrestricted from the head with a -4AN line when my AWD finally hits the road. The engine will be built and balance shaft-less.

98gst14b · Apr 21, 2009

I had a brand new Garrett journal brg. t3/t4 50 trim .63 A/R. Fail on me after 200 miles. I had oil fed from the filter housing unrestricted. BSEK on the engine. After removing for repair I decided to check the pressures both at the housing and at the head.
Housing COLD
Idle-30psi
4K-60psi
6k-80psi

Head COLD
Idle-25psi
4K-30psi
6k-45psi

JusMX141 · Apr 21, 2009

There's no doubt in my mind your turbo died because it was over-oiled. In your case, the head source will provide MORE than enough lubrication for any journal bearing turbo to survive.

Pay close attention to my other thread regarding oil drain flange sizes for the Garrett and Holset turbos as well. It seems if you're dumping too much oil into a turbo and it's draining through a hole that a pea couldn't fit through, it's going to fail.

Car Cannibal · Apr 21, 2009

I wouldn't take PTE's oil recommendations as the END ALL. PTE used to sell an oil filter relocation kit with a -6an turbo feedline and guess what it used to do, blow tons of oil past the turbo seal. They then swapped it for a -4an and it still does this sometimes. :ohdamn:

The DSM head flows plenty of oil volume and pressure for the turbo, I've got a second 91 at 130k miles and the stock turbos still kicking strong and this oil line is probably not 100% free flowing inside. On Journal Bearing turbos I'd use a -4an line from the head and call it a day, starting to smoke, restrictor time. My OFH -3an SS line is even causing some smoking on my PTE so a restrictor is needed.

Turbo death can be traced to many factors, oil pressure/volume is just one.

boosted86 · Feb 8, 2010

in my honest opinion, feeding any turbo from any where but the head (on dsms) is like reinventing the wheel. yes, buying a longer ss line along with the necesarry -AN fittings and restrictors will probally get the job done as effectively as using the head... but why go through all the trouble when the original manufactures oil feed (head) will get the job done perfectly with just about every turbo that i can think of(without the -AN fittings, restrictors, ss lines etc.)
I have yet to see someone come forth and say this turbo (whichever) requires X>65psi of oil pressure to function properly. and have the manufacturer's manual or some other legitimate source back them up.
its a proven fact that turbos do not require high volumes or pressure of oil to operate, they simply just do not have high power loads. it is still astonishing me that people would ever want to draw there oil supply anywhere but the OEM location( head).

boosted86 · Feb 13, 2010

I found some really useful info on MHI turbos. its a oil requirement guideline for all mitsu turbos. it was written by what seems to be, a engineer from MHI.
heres the link : http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/subaru_oil/MHI_Oil_Specs.pdf

keep in mind : 1 kg/cm2= 14.2psi

the recommended full load pressure is 3.5kg/cm2(49.7 psi) which almost excatly what i get at wot. i checked with my mechanical pressure gauge.

just giving some more backbone to feeding all turbos from there original location( head)

JusMX141 · Feb 13, 2010

Holset recommends no more than 72psi, and no less than 30psi under load. Depending on where you're at in the RPM range, some heads never offer 30psi when the turbo needs it....which leads to bearing scoring and instant failure.

TSIMonsteR · Feb 13, 2010

Hmmm, interesting. My E316g was on the car when I bought it, already being fed from the OFH... I just assumed that was correct. Should I switch back to the head, or leave it? Seems to have been fine for 50k miles though, so maybe I should go with the "it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality ...

I am switching to a FF OFH this weekend though, so that'd be the opportunity to switch.

JusMX141 · Feb 13, 2010

The filter housing gives too much pressure for a 16G if it's not restricted. However, if it's working as-is you can just leave it alone. If it starts to smoke and there's no shaft play on the turbo, move it to the head or install a restrictor immediately.

EVIL EAGLE RT · Feb 18, 2010

ok after takin my time out and reading through all this great info there is a lack of info on bep/bw turbos. i have a fully built 6 bolt sitting on the stand waiting for the new bw s366 journal bearing so power it. i have yet to decide on what im going to do for oil, i have heard SO many diff opinions on where and what to use. i do all my bussiness with joe from sbr and after talking with him he was saying to run it from the housing, ok sounds correct, bs are out and housing is ported a bit, if i runn this turbo from the housing what else should i use? from hosing with out restictor or with out ect ect help me out boys. :hellyeah:

JusMX141 · Feb 18, 2010

I recall reading on the Bullseye forums a while back that they want no more than 55psi at the inlet. If that is true, -4AN unrestricted from the filter housing is out. You'll either need some type of restrictor in your filter housing oil source or you'll have to feed it from the head if your head source meets BW's minimum pressure requirement.

I recently took on a BW S259 that was fed from the filter housing with nothing but a FP inline filter, which actually restricts to .100" (smaller than an open -4AN fitting). This turbo had been used for around 10k and had no noticeable play or wear to the thrust plate.

EVIL EAGLE RT · Feb 18, 2010

im having a hard time locating a bullseye forum to research this info

JusMX141 · Feb 18, 2010

Hmm...well it was here:

http://www.bullseye-power.com/forums/

...but the domain seems to have expired or the page got moved somehow. Just email Bullseye or give them a call and I'm sure they'll be willing to help you out.

Artago · Feb 18, 2010

I'm running a BW 256 via -4AN line from the OFH restricted to 0.085", BSE.

It was smoking, so I decided to lower the oil pressure. I did not port the oil relief hole because I did not want to remove the OFH.

Instead, the heat compressed the spring to squash it a bit (reduced the length but 1/4") which dropped my oil pressure. Then I fine tuned the oil pressure using crush washers under the spring bolt which backed out the bolt a hair per washer dropping the pressure further. You can use a maximum of 3 (maybe 4) washers before you run out of thread. To my knowledge, no one has done this before but it worked great and best of all it's adjustable.

Tom

EVIL EAGLE RT · Feb 18, 2010

man i hope to avoid the washer situation LOL

, ya i couldnt get to the forum, im gunna have to shoot them an email if i dont get answers, know anyone good to talk to up there?

Artago · Feb 18, 2010

EVIL EAGLE RT said:
man i hope to avoid the washer situation , ya i couldnt get to the forum, im gunna have to shoot them an email if i dont get answers, know anyone good to talk to up there?

David Hall. He know's his stuff.

EVIL EAGLE RT · Feb 18, 2010

thank you sir, got his email?

slowgsr · Feb 18, 2010

i ran a s258 on my 6 bolt, for a decent amount of time, 1.5 seasons, lots of street time, and over 200passes at 30+psi. I fed from the OFH... I used a -4 with no porting to the relif valve etc.

The turbo now has zero side to side shaft play, but 15 thous of in-out shaft play, no other signs of failure ie. no smoking, no oil in charge pipes/exhaust housing. I spoke with someone who is very knowledgable with these units and they said strange enough in-out shaft play is fairly common with 258/9's run at higher boost levels, and as long as its less then 20 thous its normal enough to consider the turbo in good shape considering all other factors are fine.

If you look in the inlet of Bullseye turbo's you will notice they have a built in restrictor, the inlet is not completely open to the center section. My s258 was like that, as is my s372.

Since the s372 is going on a brand new engine, I am using a earls -4 inline filter, however I still plan to feed it from the OFH with a -4, but I will be porting the relif valve slighly this time on the new engine.

David Hall from BEP, also recommended I feed my turbo this way, using the OFH and -4 line. Be sure your return is pefect as well, no 90's.. I have a -10an fitting welded to the pan in place of that stupid factory style 2 bolt flange which always had a drip of oil on it.

Heres a pic of my old s258.