1G Jumped Timing?

[Tina94]

Well I’m doing my timing belt and this is what I found: timing marks line up below the cam gear centerline and the cam dowels are never at 12 o’clock at the same time.

Before I go any farther, what’s my next move?

oil pump, crank, and balance shaft are all lined up with their marks correctly and here’s what the cams look like:

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Now if I line up the cams as best I can, here’s what I get:

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Clearly below the centerline and clearly not at exactly 12 o’clock in the dowels

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And now the oil pump and crank marks are now a bit off

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Help! I can barely do a cam in a pushrod motor! What have I gotten myself into!? Lol

 

[92AWDHX40]

Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

 

[Tina94]

Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

Yeah that’s the article I’m following. I’m trying to follow it to the tee, 100% verbatim. But things aren’t lining up like they’re supposed to in the first place so I don’t want to even pull the belt off until I know what’s going on.

 

[97EagleAwd]

Buy the cam tool that holds them in the correct place. makes it easier

 

[Tina94]

Buy the cam tool that holds them in the correct place. makes it easier

I have it I’m just concerned with how they’re not lining up correctly

 

[97EagleAwd]

If you have the tool that goes between the gear its kind of hard to NOT have them aligned

 

[Tina94]

But they never line up in the correct spot. That’s why I think the timing jumped

They should line up here

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, instead of where they are lining up now. Right?

The article says the cam dowel pins should be at 12 o’clock and the timing marks should be on the centerline between the two cam gear bolts. The exhaust side is more like 1 o’clock and the intake side is like 11 o’clock and the timing marks are below the centerline of the two bolts

 

[97EagleAwd]

Ok, I read that wrong. For some reason I was thinking setting timing. Sorry. Guess its time to pull it and reset and hope for the best

 

[Tina94]

Shoot that’s what I was afraid of. Know of any good articles or resources hat could help me do that? Or can I literally just take off the belt and nudge the cams to there they need to be?

 

[97EagleAwd]

Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

Also, if you have the tool that holds the cam gears it makes things easier.

Extreme PSI Timing Belt Tool: Fixed Cam Gear Position (DSM & EVO)

This tool will allow you to accurately fix the cam gears in position while installing your timing belt. No more using zip ties, vice grips, C-clamps, clothes pins, etc. when turning the exhaust side gear to align the marks. For use on any 4g63 equipped DSM and EVO.

www.extremepsi.com

Extreme PSI Timing Belt Tool Kit: 4G63T (DSM & EVO 1-9) *SALE*

The Extreme PSI Timing Belt Tool kit comes with our 3 most popular timing belt components for the 4G63T (1g & 2g DSM's + Evo 1-9)Kit Includes:1x - Timing Belt Tensioner Tool These are 4140 cr-mo pre-hard material. We heat treated the tips so they don't wear out after repeated use. A little...

www.extremepsi.com

 

[Tina94]

Yeah that’s the procedure I’m following and yeah I got the tools to try and get this damn thing right

 

[97EagleAwd]

Have you watch any of the videos on youtube that may help?

 

[Tina94]

Yeah, I’ve watched just about every 4g63 timing video in preparation for this . The more I think about it the more I know it must’ve just jumped timing. Both cams are off while at tdc and with all the other marks lining up perfect. I’m just going to set the cams according to tdc and the other timing marks and it should be perfect I think.

 

[Stapl3]

It always takes me a few times. The intake gear I think I have to advance a tooth, which initially looks completely wrong, but after the dust settles it lines up. Timing doesn't 'jump' per se, rather you just started in the wrong spot and it settles where it settles. You're going to chase your tail a bit, which is fine.

Redo it.

 

[pauleyman]

Move the crank away from tdc a few degrees. This keeps all pistons away from tdc. Set cams in place either with the tool or your new belt and a couple binder clips. Once cams are set put crank back to tdc and finish the belt install. That ought to get you started. Ask questions as needed.

Read this also.

Are you afraid to change a timing belt? You shouldn't be after you read this.

If you are 100% confident in your ability to change a belt stop here and read no further. This has to be my single biggest pet peeve in the DSM community. We see a tbelt job messed up almost daily on these forums. This has got to stop. This post may sound like a gripe out but if you lack...

www.dsmtuners.com

 

[DSMPT]

You have only 13 teeth between the tooth that should be at 12 o'clock on IN/EX cam, which means it's off. It would be 15 teeth if the cam timing is set properly. Just take your time.

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[Dericsh]

Here’s the Marty way to do it.

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/timing-a-4g63-my-special-method.532805/

 

[wparks]

Hey Tina94- I don't think it jumped timing. I think whoever put that belt on missed the mark and the performance has been suffering since. I bet you will notice a difference once this is redone. The factory service manual is very clear, and it's good you are doing your homework. The cam lock tool is a must as it makes it really easy by holding those cam timing marks in the perfect position.

Since you are tearing this down, you DO need to make sure it did NOT jump timing- the hydraulic tensioner needs to be really checked over- How far is the plunger extended- how large is the gap in mm from the tensioner body to the face of the tensioner arm the pin pushes against? It it's a big gap or all the way out it could have jumped, maybe. How tight is the belt now?

Are you replacing the tensioner with an OEM or reusing it? I bet it would be fine to reuse given the low mileage if it's not leaking. Either way there is a procedure to bleed it- Very slowly compressing the plunger in using a vice, then letting it extend, repeating 3-4 times. I can't remember if you are supposed to do this with the tensioner horizontal or vertical. Guys? - I don't think this is in the service manual but it will tell you how solid the tensioner is holding pressure on the belt.

 

[Mech Addict]

For whatever reason it is currently wrong, I wouldn’t dwell too much about it. This is why you are fixing it. Proceed with the steps to change the belts, and you will know it is correct when you’re done.
Are you replacing water pump too? How did the coolant look? Might be good to drain it and see what all comes out. If it looks ok, the pump may be in good shape. Sort of depends on how fanatical you want to be with replacing parts. Same goes for the tensioner. Should be fine, but kind of hard to verify unless you put in a new one.

 

[Tina94]

Wow thank you all so much for the helpful replies!

As far as the tensioner and the belt tension goes- I’m replacing everything with new oem as long as I’m in there. The belt is very loose after sitting but after rotating the engine and pumping up the lifters, it pulls tight. I did not check the tensioner gap yet as I ran out of time last night.

Thanks for the links dericsh and pauleyman, those are two I haven’t seen yet but will read them before going any further. I will follow your suggestion of staying a few degrees off tdc to start.

Dsmpt- thanks for the visual! That really confirms what I thought. Each cam is one tooth towards center then, no doubt about it. Thought maybe my system just had some slop in it or something but that confirms it.

For whatever reason it is currently wrong, I wouldn’t dwell too much about it. This is why you are fixing it. Proceed with the steps to change the belts, and you will know it is correct when you’re done.
Are you replacing water pump too? How did the coolant look? Might be good to drain it and see what all comes out. If it looks ok, the pump may be in good shape. Sort of depends on how fanatical you want to be with replacing parts. Same goes for the tensioner. Should be fine, but kind of hard to verify unless you put in a new one.

Very true. I just didn’t know if I could simply spin the cams the one tooth needed to get it right or if there was some other factor I had to consider.

I am replacing the water pump. The engine has only 64k on it but it has been sitting for at least 5 years. I’ve been bitten enough times in the past on other projects by trying to cheap out or skip a step that this time, I’m just throwing the whole kit and kaboodle (caboodle? Lol) at it. Especially because this style of engine is foreign to me. I have not checked coolant, but either way I’m going to do a very thorough flush, probably a few complete flushes and fill with the same CAT coolant I run in everything.

 

[wparks]

I think that it is important to dwell a little on whether the belt jumped- at least in deciding whether to replace the tensioner or not. This is all used equipment that has been previously monkeyed with, and a little judicious detective work will help ensure you don't miss and repeat a problem. Since you are replacing the tensioner, great- you will still want to bleed the new one. I have had NEW tensioners go squishy on me in both the 4G63 and in a Mitsubishi V6 and either lost or almost lost my valves twice. The V6 tipped me off because the belt felt too loose. I religiously buy OEM and bleed them now.

Your belt should never feel loose- regardless of whether the lifters have pumped up or not. That is the point of the tensioner. If it is pre-tensioned properly it will have the movement range it needs to last a long life under a wide range of conditions- If the belt ever has more slack (due to high temperature, wear, or stretching) it will suck it up, then give it back grudgingly if the belt tightens. I bet you will find this old one either went squishy or it was not pre-tensioned properly when that belt was installed. If a lack of proper care and diligence is suspected I usually look even harder for other things they may have screwed up. Call me cynical.

I am super glad you are asking questions and taking good pictures. It's nice to be able to see clearly what is going on and to be able to help before you get into a bad situation. I remember my first time through this on the 4G63- seemed super scary, but then I really fell in love with how well this engine is designed, and really how easy it is to work on once you learn what it needs. I think you are paying enough respect and giving enough love, and have a great attitude, and you will fall in love with yours too.

When you are building back up as has been said previously, Loctite blue is your friend, and be super religious about properly torquing everything to the factory manual specs, and check and recheck over it several times to prevent night sweats. I have three different torque wrenches, from 1/4" in inch-pounds up through the bigger ones, and I bet you do too from your other cars. You may also want a spring-bar style in inch-pounds if you want to follow the factory pre-tension procedure to the letter, but these days I usually just use feel to set the pre-tension to lightly snug and let the measured tensioner gap tell me how I did.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Another tip, if you are replacing the timing tensioner (as you said and is suggested), and you think the old unit may still be good, put it into a vice and SLOWLY compress it back to the point that you can put a pin in it to hold it. These tensioners are getting harder to find and you may, some day, need one. I retract mine and re-pin them and sit them on the shelf if they aren't wore out or obviously shot.

 

[Tina94]

Thank you so much for such a detailed reply. I probably would’ve forgotten to bleed the tensioner. But I won’t now. This is the amount of deflection my belt had before monkeying with anything, took a picture because it didn’t seem right:

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But I’ve heard from other reliable sources on here that their belts do the same thing. Maybe it comes down to a procedural difference in the tensioner install? Either way, I’ll be sure to bleed the tensioner, use loctite, and torque to spec.

 

[pauleyman]

Very true. I just didn’t know if I could simply spin the cams the one tooth needed to get it right or if there was some other factor I had to consider.

Yes it's safe IF no pistons are at TDC. Which is why you rotate the crank a few degrees off. With pistons out of the way you can spin the cams as you see fit. Once they're lined up it is safe to put number 1 (and 4) at TDC. That's how I do it if I'm starting with a car that is off timing. Cams first, then crank, then everything else. I will caution you do not turn the crank all the way around. If you're a few degrees away from #1 TDC then just go back to TDC. If you go all the way around 2 and 3 go past TDC and valves will be open on those cylinders. You risk bending valves on 2 and 3. Make sense?

I am replacing the water pump. The engine has only 64k on it but it has been sitting for at least 5 years. I’ve been bitten enough times in the past on other projects by trying to cheap out or skip a step that this time, I’m just throwing the whole kit and kaboodle (caboodle? Lol) at it. Especially because this style of engine is foreign to me. I have not checked coolant, but either way I’m going to do a very thorough flush, probably a few complete flushes and fill with the same CAT coolant I run in everything.

 

[Tina94]

Another tip, if you are replacing the timing tensioner (as you said and is suggested), and you think the old unit may still be good, put it into a vice and SLOWLY compress it back to the point that you can put a pin in it to hold it. These tensioners are getting harder to find and you may, some day, need one. I retract mine and re-pin them and sit them on the shelf if they aren't wore out or obviously shot.

Great advice. I will definitely hang on to it, thank you. I wonder what the solution will be if they become completely unavailable. With all the belt and chain tensioners available, I’m sure something could be adapted to fit.