1G Jumped Timing?

[Tina94]

Well I’m doing my timing belt and this is what I found: timing marks line up below the cam gear centerline and the cam dowels are never at 12 o’clock at the same time.

Before I go any farther, what’s my next move?

oil pump, crank, and balance shaft are all lined up with their marks correctly and here’s what the cams look like:

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Now if I line up the cams as best I can, here’s what I get:

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Clearly below the centerline and clearly not at exactly 12 o’clock in the dowels

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And now the oil pump and crank marks are now a bit off

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Help! I can barely do a cam in a pushrod motor! What have I gotten myself into!? Lol

 

[Tina94]

Yes it's safe IF no pistos are at TDC. Which is why you rotate it a few degrees off. With pistons out of the way you can spin the cams as you see fit. Once they're lined up it is safe to put number 1 (and 4) at TDC. That's gow I do it if I'm starting with a car that is off timing. Cams first, then crank, then everything else.

Now THAT is exactly what I was worried about. Forgetting to stop a bit before tdc and giving those cams a good spin

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Great advice. I will definitely hang on to it, thank you. I wonder what the solution will be if they become completely unavailable. With all the belt and chain tensioners available, I’m sure something could be adapted to fit.

We will have to use aftermarket tensioners. They are still available, but I and a lot of others just don't trust their reliability and longevity, so we try to use OEM.

 

[Tina94]

Just a quick update- whoever did the timing belt didn’t immobilize the cams properly. The #2 exhaust lobes and the #3 intake lobes are compressing the valve springs when the cams are in the correct position. Without immobilizing the cams, they spring back to precisely where the cams were in the previous pictures. That’s a relief to at least know what happened.

Got them set now though

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Now that I can actually see it and how it all goes together in person, it’s a lot less intimidating and makes more sense. I’ll do cam seals and water pump tonight for sure, pull the old tensioner and balance belt if I have time.

Just wanted to say thanks to all of you again, I was having kind of a freakout there wondering if it jumped and bent a valve or something.

Also:

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Power grip brand? I’ll have to look that up.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Parts store brand! I don't care for that cut though.
@Tina94, here is a short video when I thought one of my cars had skipped timing. It didn't, it was just loose from the lifters being bled down and would tighten back up after it ran. I rebuilt it later on and its tensioner was oily so I figured it was on its way out so check yours. Keep it if it holds tension and is dry tho.

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[pauleyman]

it might take you a few tries to get the belt routed over and marks lined up but don't fret about it. You already see how to line cams up. Just take a bit to get it all done. you are aware the rear balance shaft has the oil pump gears behind it? This means there are phases where the mark lined up but it isn't right. Yours is likely correct but I would check it anyway. There are several methods to do this. I can explain if you need. The biggest trick is getting all the slack out of the idler pulley side. It's perfectly acceptable to rotate the crank and oil pump sprocket a little to facilitate belt install and get marks lined up. I've stepped away from the cam lock tool specifically because I like to rotate the cams a little to help install the belt. Even the factory service manual shows you put the belt on, line up cams then install two binder clips to hold the belt to the cams. This does an equally good job holding the cams as does the tool. Once you've got belt on set tension correctly, rotate crank six times and double check marks and tension. If anything is wrong you start over or least backup a step or two.

 

[Tina94]

Parts store brand! I don't care for that cut though.
@Tina94, here is a short video when I thought one of my cars had skipped timing. It didn't, it was just loose from the lifters being bled down and would tighten back up after it ran. I rebuilt it later on and its tensioner was oily so I figured it was on its way out so check yours. Keep it if it holds tension and is dry tho.

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That’s exactly how mine was. I’m hanging on to mine but still replacing it with new oem.

it might take you a few tries to get the belt routed over and marks lined up but don't fret about it. You already see how to line cams up. Just take a bit to get it all done. you are aware the rear balance shaft has the oil pump gears behind it? This means there are phases where the mark lined up but it isn't right. Yours is likely correct but I would check it anyway. There are several methods to do this. I can explain if you need. The biggest trick is getting all the slack out of the idler pulley side. It's perfectly acceptable to rotate the crank and oil pump sprocket a little to facilitate belt install and get marks lined up. I've stepped away from the cam lock tool specifically because I like to rotate the cams a little to help install the belt. Even the factory service manual shows you put the belt on, line up cams then install two binder clips to hold the belt to the cams. This does an equally good job holding the cams as does the tool. Once you've got belt on set tension correctly, rotate crank six times and double check marks and tension. If anything is wrong you start over or least backup a step or two.

I figured I was in the clear on the oil pump since every 6 rotations all the marks lines up. No?

I feel pretty confident now as far as putting it back together. It looked worse on paper than in person.

 

[pauleyman]

I figured I was in the clear on the oil pump since every 6 rotations all the marks lines up. No?

I feel pretty confident now as far as putting it back together. It looked worse on paper than in person.

That is assuming it right in the first place. That's why I say check it. It probably is but now is the time to find out.

 

[Dericsh]

You have already noted your use of the VFAQ, but this is what Paul is talking about in step 24. I’ve had luck with the shortcut method (in red text) depending on if you need to remove the pulley or not.

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[Tina94]

Ahh yeah I’ve seen that trick. I guess I will do it for the peace of mind. Thanks!

 

[pauleyman]

Ahh yeah I’ve seen that trick. I guess I will do it for the peace of mind. Thanks!

Yes the red text trick works well on a used car. It typically does not work well if the seal is brand new. No worries for you. Even if it were new the bolt procedure is no big deal on a fwd. Awd it's a little harder with stuff in the way.

 

[luv2rallye]

Set the cam sprockets so their alignment marks are exactly even with each other at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions with the sprockets pins up FIRST. {Use a ruler between cam sprocket bolt centers to verify them - see my pic "Timing cam shaft sprockets alignment" and other tips here: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/timing-belt-tensioning-tips-for-4g63-turbo.214625/#post-1791544}.

THEN when cam sprockets are set, now set/check the alignment on the oil pump, crank, and front balance shaft sprockets SECOND. The alignment pointer resolution on the oil pump, crank, and front balance shaft sprockets is not as high or easy to see as on the cam sprockets, which is why you need to do the cam sprockets first (cams should end up being exact after tensioning or you're doing something wrong).

Note:
((1)) You often have to start installing the belt with the exhaust cam 1 tooth clockwise (due to cam lobe force) so that by the time the belt is tensioned properly it will end up in the correct place (see note in step 22 of: http://www.vfaq.com/mods/timingbelt-1G.html) and

((2)) All these alignment pointer positions are ending positions after the belt is PROPERLY tensioned (with turning crank 6 times and letting it sit 15 minutes for belt stretch - note that all pointers only align up every 6 crank revs), NOT when you install the belt - KEEP THAT IN MIND!

 

[Mech Addict]

I've only done this once, and need to do it again now once I get my front cover back on, but when I used one of those squiggly cam sprocket locking tools, I was able to get the belt tight enough between them that I didn't "lose" anything any ground after tensioning. Everything lined up very nicely through the six revs, and after giving it stretch-time and re-checking. So it's puzzling why this is sometimes an issue. Murphy's law would dictate that it definitely should have happened to me. BTW, I did use a drill bit to check the tensioner clearance, since it has to be done mostly by feel (at least with the engine in the car), and the round shape was easier to slide in. You need one bit for adequate clearance, and another that is slightly too big, to know you have it just right. Can't recall the size off-hand, but I believe vfaq lays it out (or one of the other guides).

 

[pauleyman]

Just a tip. If you have a mechanics inspection mirror you can look at the tensioner "straight on". The drill bit Go-no-go gauge works good too.

 

[luv2rallye]

Another way to check that the auto tensioner gap is correct (instead of the drill bit method), is to adjust the tensioner pulley so that the auto tensioner holding pin (eg. 1/16 allen wrench) slides freely all the way through the auto tensioner body and pin holes when belt tension is final. Do this and it will automatically make the distance between the tensioner arm and auto tensioner body (drill bit measurement) be about .157 in. (spec is .150 - .177 in.). Don't leave the pin in - it's only for checking!

 

[pauleyman]

Another way to check that the auto tensioner gap is correct (instead of the drill bit method), is to adjust the tensioner pulley so that the auto tensioner holding pin (eg. 1/16 allen wrench) slides freely all the way through the auto tensioner body and pin holes when belt tension is final. Do this and it will automatically make the distance between the tensioner arm and auto tensioner body (drill bit measurement) be about .157 in. (spec is .150 - .177 in.). Don't leave the pin in - it's only for checking!

And this is how I've been doing it for years. I don't even measure anymore.

 

[Tina94]

That was kind of my plan too. Using drill bits as feeler gauges seemed a lot harder than just doing the pin method and double checking with a drill bit

 

[pauleyman]

I forgot about a few thread I wrote that I usually reference. Maybe these can help you.

Why do people still screw up timing belt jobs?

I don't get it. It seems like once a week we have a post on a botched job. I'm tired or reading about it. I just wanted to share my experiences.After 20 years and more belts than I can count I'll summarize by saying this. No matter what method you use to line up marks, put belt back on, what...

www.dsmtuners.com

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/timing-belts-and-tdc-long-writeup.437761/

Sounds like you have it under control but I remember my first timing belt. Took me a few tries.

 

[Tina94]

I forgot about a few thread I wrote that I usually reference. Maybe these can help you.

Why do people still screw up timing belt jobs?

I don't get it. It seems like once a week we have a post on a botched job. I'm tired or reading about it. I just wanted to share my experiences.After 20 years and more belts than I can count I'll summarize by saying this. No matter what method you use to line up marks, put belt back on, what...

www.dsmtuners.com

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/timing-belts-and-tdc-long-writeup.437761/

Sounds like you have it under control but I remember my fist timing belt. Took me a few tries.

Thanks, I’ll reference those as needed. Pretty comfortable with the whole process after actually getting my hands on all the parts and seeing in person how it all goes together. Little worried I bent a valve because I slipped while undoing the cam gears and let the cam rotate but a compression test will tell when I’m done.

My torque wrench failed or I had a defective bolt for the tensioner. One of them broke off but I was able to get everything out without issue. So waiting on new oem bolts before I can go any further. I suspect one of the bolts had a defective heat treat or had been overtorqued past it’s yield point by the previous mechanic because I never got to a point where it tightened up, it just kept spinning at a low resistance until it snapped.