Jacks Trans Super HD gears and durability ?'s

[mavericktsi83]

As the title states, I’m looking for feedback/review from those of you running this trans w/ the larger tooth HD 3/4 gearset. The gears Jacks offers are different than those used by Shep, TRE, etc. in their top of the line helical builds and are claimed to be stronger than the Evo III treated/shotpeened as well as the DSM late-1991 early 92 gears.

I’m sick of sheering the teeth off 3rd or 4th gear and wondering how these gears are holding-up? I’m skeptical of the 700HP claim. There is little to no info out there about these aside from having “much larger teeth” so anyone with knowledge please post.

To better gauge longevity/durability/strength, please include relevant info such as mileage, # of passes, weight, clutch, RPM and HP/TQ est. or dyno, etc…


Thanks,
Mike

 

[Fullthrottle7]

I've also asked this several times and its tough to get much of a response since those in the know are typically actual vendors that have money on the line and can't be publicly defacing their competitors without looking like children. I actually changed my plans of building my 2.3l that was in the works for two years since almost every person I know with a stroker strips the teeth off 3rd or 4th in under 5k miles. The OEM and EVOIII gears just aren't strong enough to support the TQ level of the added displacement and quicker spooling of big turbos.

I don't want to be negative and someone who knows the process better than me can give specifics if this isn't 100% right but the HD gears that Jack sells are the same gears as the normal 1990 HD gears with the synchro cones beam welded since he is using the ones that are not beam welded from the factory. Basically it makes it so the gears can take a bit more abuse during shifting but in essence the overall fatigue strength doesn't change.

Now that's not to say that Jack won't take care of you if the set does fail and you are under 700hp, I have seen solid customer service in past cases from his shop. I just wouldn't count on this gearset holding up to the abuse if your current built trans isn't either. Best bet at the moment is to either get a set Faceplated by Liberty or to buy the straight cut gears from Matthias B in Germany. If I had $3k I'd go the German route hands down I think his FB for the company is Boldt Mechanix or something similar! Gl with your ride...

 

[mavericktsi83]

I've also asked this several times and its tough to get much of a response since those in the know are typically actual vendors that have money on the line and can't be publicly defacing their competitors without looking like children. I actually changed my plans of building my 2.3l that was in the works for two years since almost every person I know with a stroker strips the teeth off 3rd or 4th in under 5k miles. The OEM and EVOIII gears just aren't strong enough to support the TQ level of the added displacement and quicker spooling of big turbos.

I don't want to be negative and someone who knows the process better than me can give specifics if this isn't 100% right but the HD gears that Jack sells are the same gears as the normal 1990 HD gears with the synchro cones beam welded since he is using the ones that are not beam welded from the factory. Basically it makes it so the gears can take a bit more abuse during shifting but in essence the overall fatigue strength doesn't change.

Now that's not to say that Jack won't take care of you if the set does fail and you are under 700hp, I have seen solid customer service in past cases from his shop. I just wouldn't count on this gearset holding up to the abuse if your current built trans isn't either. Best bet at the moment is to either get a set Faceplated by Liberty or to buy the straight cut gears from Matthias B in Germany. If I had $3k I'd go the German route hands down I think his FB for the company is Boldt Mechanix or something similar! Gl with your ride...

Thanks for your reply Fullthrottle7.

I understand vendors protect their intellectual property to a degree. With that said, I think there can be meaningful and civil conversation regarding the products they offer and how well they perform in real world applications—this should be encouraged and is beneficial for both the vendor(s) and the consumer, in this forum.

I am running a 2.0l and I agree with your sentiments on a 2.3l—I didn’t build one for the same reason. I was under the impression that the late 1991-early 1992 3rd/4th gear (and hub/slider) was the strongest with the 1990 gears being weaker, respectively. Does anyone have any further insight on 1990 vs. L 91- E 92 gears in terms of strength/being less prone to striping teeth?

I remember seeing a post describing Jacks Trans “laser welding” gears, however welding a double synchro assembly to a gear suggests this is being performed solely to accomplish a smoother shift/high rpm requirement. Same goes for Liberty’s face plate—shifting is improved but the gear itself strips teeth just the same, as gear strength itself remains unchanged in the process.

Before looking into exotic straight-cut gear offerings from Europe, it would be nice to know how the 700hp gears Jacks offers are holding up on Dsmtuners member cars. If you are running one of Jacks HD drag builds or have his HD 3-4 installed please chime in…

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Well I have a JACKS Transmission Stage 2 Race Transmission with Double Syncro 1st/2nd, Hd 3/4 and 4 gear spyder dif but I haven't got the engine running yet (it's all new, motor, trans clutch etc). As soon as I do, I can give feedback as to what I think of this setup. I'm working every night to get all the loose ends buttoned up so that it runs and drives again, so bear with me.

 

[donniekak]

The 1990 gears are thicker than the 91+, and have a different pitch. I Have no clue if that is what jack uses.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I'm hoping that it is a good durable transmission. I'm not going to beat it to death but it will see some track time for sure!!!

 

[mikgsxx]

Im also very interested in the reviews of this set up.

 

[mavericktsi83]

The 1990 gears are thicker than the 91+, and have a different pitch. I Have no clue if that is what jack uses.

From what I've seen, Jack does not disclose what he uses—other than, the gears in question are manufactured by Mitsubishi and “no one knows about them or how to get them”. That’s fine and I understand why he chooses to keep that quiet.

The prevailing wisdom from the community, and experts, has been that the late 91-early 92; 3rd/4th gears are the absolute strongest oem type gears. So considering the 1990 gears have thicker teeth it really makes me wonder if these are indeed a better design/stronger option considering. Pitch certainly plays a role as does pressure angle in fatigue limit—radial thrust load can put a lot of pressure on the bearings and case though. There isn't too much info out there and most, if not all, have dismissed the 1990 gears in their builds—doesn't make sense, at least on the surface.
--

My main interest is in how well the gears contained in the 700HP rated JT Super HD trans perform—if they are staying together or shredding teeth in short order, etc.…

The JT Super HD build has been out since ~2012 so there must be a fair amount of people on this forum who have or who are running this trans for the past 1-2-or 3 years…please post!

 

[bastarddsm]

If I was a betting man, I'd say they are the 90-91 gears. The only other possiblity I can think of is if the AWD N/T 3/s cars had different stuff in the trans than the dsm w5m33's. I can't find that car on any of the caps's to look up the numbers.

While mathias's straight cut gears may be a little better than stock, I'd be carefull with that. There is only so much you can do with a material imrpovement, and a pitch increase. Changing the pitch, profile and helix angle is a big comprimise. Improvements in one area can cause a deficit in another area. Making the gears coarse and straight cut might have a big improvement in brute strength, it can also severly reduce the fatigue strength. The failures we experience are in fatigue.

The #1 that needs to be done to improve the w5m33 trans design is seperate the output from 3rd gear. That can't be done without a massive redesign so the next best thing is to make 3rd and 4th much wider, and make a billet sandwhich plate that can accomidate a 1" longer cluster. ( which is was should have been done with the ppg and par set.)

 

[kchaazz]

I always thought the EVO 3 gears were the strongest helical gears available?

 

[mavericktsi83]

I always thought the EVO 3 gears were the strongest helical gears available?

Well the Evo III gears are shotpeened from the factory whereas the DSM gears are not. However, most people assembling a trans will get this done to their gears anyway, so that’s a wash in my opinion. TRE, for example performs the proper 2 stage process which results in a gear that exhibits strength 25% larger in cross section. Additionally, the DSM 3rd (1.115) and 4th (.0833) gears are taller and reduce shockload to an extent vs. the Evo III 3rd (1.160) and 4th (.0862) ratios.
---

4th gear is ridiculously narrow. I noticed that TRE offers a Evo III “stronger billet” 4th gear in their stage 4 build. I have no further info on this or idea on how it has been performing in high HP/TQ setups. Not sure if this is a custom cut gear or not? TRE also offers what they call a “High Torque” transmission. Anyone, feel free to comment with experience on longevity/strength.

The 1990 DSM gears and or whatever Jacks uses in his Super HD builds sound promising due to the larger teeth on these gears, opposed to the others. 3rd and 4th gears are the Achilles heel of this platform and there has not been any reviews/consensus regarding the larger tooth gears.

As aforementioned, I think it would be beneficial to the DSM community/Dsmtuners forum to hear from those of you running the Jack’s Super HD trans. Real world testing is best and to determine if the larger tooth gears are holding up better or just the same. Like I said, the Super HD has been out for at least 3 years…there must be a lot of them out there, so please post with your experience and findings. Thanks!

 

[kchaazz]

I have the TRE stage 4, with all EVO stuff and the TRE 4 spider center and Kaaz front diff ( I already had the front LSD). Im not sure if he put the "stronger billet 4th" in there or not, but Id suspect not as I told him the most I was planning on making was 450ish WHP. I was merely curious, as I had heard the Evo stuff was tougher. I do enjoy the shifting, and it shifts smoother and faster with NLTS. Im kind of afraid of breaking stuff myself, though Im not making near the power you guys are.

 

[bastarddsm]

The biggest problem with the evo gears is that they are 1 less tooth than stock and the intermediate shaft isn't changed to compensate. That increases the tip loading which increases the bending stresses in the teeth.

 

[awdmonster1904]

I've been runing the HD Trans from jacks for 1 year and Half granted that my dsm is only 660hp and 512 tq
I beat on the car when I'm in the track
I haven't had any issues I always used the oem oil they recommend

But ..... Next reason the setup changes and I'm hoping it will last with 850 hp
God who knows how much torque

 

[mavericktsi83]

I've been runing the HD Trans from jacks for 1 year and Half granted that my dsm is only 660hp and 512 tq
I beat on the car when I'm in the track
I haven't had any issues I always used the oem oil they recommend

But ..... Next reason the setup changes and I'm hoping it will last with 850 hp
God who knows how much torque

Awdmonster1904 thanks for your reply. Just so I’m clear your profile lists the Jacks Trans 2.2 and I am unsure if this is different than his “Super HD” trans rated at 700HP? Does your trans have the “larger tooth” HD gears? Is your gearset shot peened (any other gear treatments?)?

I noticed that you run a Quartermaster twin. Do you preload when launching? What kind of street driving do you do...a lot of launching/3rd/4th gear pulls or are you pretty easy on it?

I see that that your JT 2.2 has held up 1.5 years…could you please provide the following:

a. Weight of your car?
b. Mileage on trans?
c. Number of quarter mile passes on trans?

Thanks!

Mike

 

[awdmonster1904]

Awdmonster1904 thanks for your reply. Just so I’m clear your profile lists the Jacks Trans 2.2 and I am unsure if this is different than his “Super HD” trans rated at 700HP? Does your trans have the “larger tooth” HD gears? Is your gearset shot peened (any other gear treatments?)?

I noticed that you run a Quartermaster twin. Do you preload when launching? What kind of street driving do you do...a lot of launching/3rd/4th gear pulls or are you pretty easy on it?

I see that that your JT 2.2 has held up 1.5 years…could you please provide the following:

a. Weight of your car?
b. Mileage on trans?
c. Number of quarter mile passes on trans?

Thanks!

Mike

- according to jacks I got the HD 2.2 Trans that's what I payed for. I never asked for "special coatings or finishes ..
According to Tim it has a "large 4th "
And he did not wanna discuss there trade secret .... Trust me I asked him several times my last Trans I killed 4th


- the quarter master 7.25 v drive
When I purchased the Trans I specifically told them on my clutch selection I figured since this clutch has the ability to shift in to the next gear at high RPM the prob shimmed the tras at a tighter tolerance when the Trans was cold it felt very tight till I warmed it up and did pulls it would go in like butter
As for the preload yes I preload the clutch can take the beating I have. Cnc staging brake
I used to drive it on the street did several freeway pulls but never back to back I Always let the Trans "rest " diving it normal. I know the Achilles' tendon of the Trans will always be 4th


- weight of the car is 3200 lbs with me in it I'm a big guy : (.
- miles on the car I don't really keep track
- passes prob 40-50 since I got the Trans

 

[94awdcoupe]

there are four different common sets of 3/4 gears.
big syncro. these are the late gears 92.5up. its not so much that the gears are weak. its the big slider that works with the big syncro . the slider is cut too thin to accommodate the larger syncro. and it shatters with power. this would be the easiest set to break.
91-92.5 hd. these gears are same strength as the big syncro gears. but use the smaller syncro hub. the slider is very strong. so the gears are hd compared to the big syncro gears.
next is the evo 3/4 gears. these gears have one less tooth than the hd gears. this does make them stronger. the base of the tooth that is attached to the gear is wider. wider base equals a stronger tooth. the base of tooth is always what fails. it snaps off at the base. leaving you a whole tooth for your viewing displeasure.
last is the 90-91 gears. super hd to jack. these gears where cut with a different pitch than the hd gears. the different pitch leaves a larger base for each tooth. to me the base is as wide as the evo 3/4 base. but according to john at TRE these gears are the strongest. the way the teeth were machined leaves them very strong. reason they are 90-91 only was because the tooling needed to make the cuts wore down quickly so they were expensive to make. all subsequent gears where machined with longer lasting tooling which made them cheaper to make but resulted in a weaker tooth.
the big syncro, hd, and evo 3 gears all mate to the same 3/4 cluster gear. this cluster gear limits power as well as the 4th gear on the cluster is undercut to fit the bearing. the 90 gears mate to a different 3/4 cluster as the pitch of the gear teeth must match the cuts of the 3/4 gears they mate to.

I dont know anything about the billet gear TRE is now offering. sounds like I need to give him a ring. last time we spoke i specifically asked if anyone was making aftermarket stronger 3/4 gearset with matching cluster. like out of 300m. and he said no.

 

[keltalon]

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

there are four different common sets of 3/4 gears.
big syncro. these are the late gears 92.5up. its not so much that the gears are weak. its the big slider that works with the big syncro . the slider is cut too thin to accommodate the larger syncro. and it shatters with power. this would be the easiest set to break.
91-92.5 hd. these gears are same strength as the big syncro gears. but use the smaller syncro hub. the slider is very strong. so the gears are hd compared to the big syncro gears.
next is the evo 3/4 gears. these gears have one less tooth than the hd gears. this does make them stronger. the base of the tooth that is attached to the gear is wider. wider base equals a stronger tooth. the base of tooth is always what fails. it snaps off at the base. leaving you a whole tooth for your viewing displeasure.
last is the 90-91 gears. super hd to jack. these gears where cut with a different pitch than the hd gears. the different pitch leaves a larger base for each tooth. to me the base is as wide as the evo 3/4 base. but according to john at TRE these gears are the strongest. the way the teeth were machined leaves them very strong. reason they are 90-91 only was because the tooling needed to make the cuts wore down quickly so they were expensive to make. all subsequent gears where machined with longer lasting tooling which made them cheaper to make but resulted in a weaker tooth.
the big syncro, hd, and evo 3 gears all mate to the same 3/4 cluster gear. this cluster gear limits power as well as the 4th gear on the cluster is undercut to fit the bearing. the 90 gears mate to a different 3/4 cluster as the pitch of the gear teeth must match the cuts of the 3/4 gears they mate to.

I dont know anything about the billet gear TRE is now offering. sounds like I need to give him a ring. last time we spoke i specifically asked if anyone was making aftermarket stronger 3/4 gearset with matching cluster. like out of 300m. and he said no.

Thanks great post!

 

[Thruapole]

I have the TRE "High Torque" transmission in my car. I run an aluminum rod 2.4L and a 6766 turbo at around 40psi, which is what made me go with the High Torque. I have never made a full 1/4mi pass, but have been 7.4 @99 in the 1/8. Not very impressive for my engine combo, but the car always had electrical issues holding it back. Trans has 3400 miles on it. The synchros for 3/4/5 blew out twice. Mushroomed the slots for the keys until they locked in place and couldn't shift. Synchro springs are gone within 50 miles. The slider also wore out beyond use. TRE just said its because I run the PTT twin and offered to sell me replacement parts. No thank you, I gave my business to JT at that point. Replaced all these items about 100 miles ago and just waiting for it to happen again once I start driving her again. I would NOT recommend buying this trans, and regret not going with the JT Super HD.

 

[keltalon]

I have the TRE "High Torque" transmission in my car. I run an aluminum rod 2.4L and a 6766 turbo at around 40psi, which is what made me go with the High Torque. I have never made a full 1/4mi pass, but have been 7.4 @99 in the 1/8. Not very impressive for my engine combo, but the car always had electrical issues holding it back. Trans has 3400 miles on it. The synchros for 3/4/5 blew out twice. Mushroomed the slots for the keys until they locked in place and couldn't shift. Synchro springs are gone within 50 miles. The slider also wore out beyond use. TRE just said its because I run the PTT twin and offered to sell me replacement parts. No thank you, I gave my business to JT at that point. Replaced all these items about 100 miles ago and just waiting for it to happen again once I start driving her again. I would NOT recommend buying this trans, and regret not going with the JT Super HD.

Wow.

 

[bastarddsm]

Your PTT clutch will tear the shit out of your trans. Any solid disc clutch will be hard on the trans.

Do you at least have a good damper on your car?

It sounds like you have some other issues causeing problems as well.

 

[94awdcoupe]

I have the TRE "High Torque" transmission in my car. I run an aluminum rod 2.4L and a 6766 turbo at around 40psi, which is what made me go with the High Torque. I have never made a full 1/4mi pass, but have been 7.4 @99 in the 1/8. Not very impressive for my engine combo, but the car always had electrical issues holding it back. Trans has 3400 miles on it. The synchros for 3/4/5 blew out twice. Mushroomed the slots for the keys until they locked in place and couldn't shift. Synchro springs are gone within 50 miles. The slider also wore out beyond use. TRE just said its because I run the PTT twin and offered to sell me replacement parts. No thank you, I gave my business to JT at that point. Replaced all these items about 100 miles ago and just waiting for it to happen again once I start driving her again. I would NOT recommend buying this trans, and regret not going with the JT Super HD.

I build my own trans and open them up when they break to see what failed. car ran a best of 6.6 at 112 in the 1/8th. I have seen none of those issues you report. You dissing TRE is you being ignorant. You should listen to those with more knowledge and experience than you. rally twin plate clutches will kill anyones build in short order. I use a soft engaging tilton carbon/carbon twin for this very reason. you wont find anyone with more trans knowledge than john at TRE. I have working and talked to everyone who builds trans. having good knowledge myself I better recognize whos here to help and who is here to take your money.

keltalon, that whole post was directed at AWD trans. but the gears you pictured does show the same difference between hd gears . the 90 gears from AWD cars look like the ones on the left. with thicker profile at the tips.

 

[Thruapole]

Your PTT clutch will tear the sh** out of your trans. Any solid disc clutch will be hard on the trans.

Do you at least have a good damper on your car?

It sounds like you have some other issues causeing problems as well.

ATI Super Damper.

I understand that my clutch is rough on any transmission.
I am not trying to disrespect Jon at TRE. I talked to him a while and seems to know his stuff. I also know that the transmission works like crap in my car. Jacks says he has incorporated a way for his transmission to hold up to the twin discs. Whether or not that is true I can't personally say. I have a friend who bought the Jacks and runs the ACT twin so I will find out eventually.

 

[bastarddsm]

He bevels the edges of the synchros so it has to get really mushroomed before it's an issue. The problem is, that now there is less material there.

 

[94awdcoupe]

ATI Super Damper.

I understand that my clutch is rough on any transmission.
I am not trying to disrespect Jon at TRE. I talked to him a while and seems to know his stuff. I also know that the transmission works like crap in my car. Jacks says he has incorporated a way for his transmission to hold up to the twin discs. Whether or not that is true I can't personally say. I have a friend who bought the Jacks and runs the ACT twin so I will find out eventually.

jack is big winded and will take your money. you cant do anything to a transmission to reduce the shock of an on and off switch clutch. you are gullible.