Forward facing filter "Important Info"

[SBstar]

Haters = People unwilling to accept an opinion without facts, and wishing to further test



Most have said it, you "could" be right. However, it's important to not state something as fact when it has yet to be proven. You were shown the errors in your testing method, and yet can't accept that. If you indeed turn out to be correct in that it can cause an issue, depending on setup, then we will all congratulate you on bringing a valid discussion to the table. But, instead you wish to call people names for not accepting your beliefs. The biggest issue most here have is that the ffofh has been used on numerous builds and the issue you claim it causes has only been seen in one or two occasions. This would lead most to believe that it was not the cause of the failures of a few engines out of the hundreds that have ran this housing. Proper testing must be conducted to find out if this discussion has any possible validity.

 

[keltalon]

Haters = People unwilling to accept an opinion without facts, and wishing to further test



Most have said it, you "could" be right. However, it's important to not state something as fact when it has yet to be proven. You were shown the errors in your testing method, and yet can't accept that. If you indeed turn out to be correct in that it can cause an issue, depending on setup, then we will all congratulate you on bringing a valid discussion to the table. But, instead you wish to call people names for not accepting your beliefs. The biggest issue most here have is that the ffofh has been used on numerous builds and the issue you claim it causes has only been seen in one or two occasions. This would lead most to believe that it was not the cause of the failures of a few engines out of the hundreds that have ran this housing. Proper testing must be conducted to find out if this discussion has any possible validity.

its not about furthering a test its about proving me wrong but you know what It will not happen I stated facts in post one. enjoy this video in the mean time road to success!

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Nw_Oe6309Hk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[1qkfwd]

Not true this is not personal at all I would love to be on your side I think with both of our experience together , all on the boards will benefit from which I think is the purpose of the forum in the first place! You guys have me wrong I would love to team up with you dsmers against Hondas and other cars enthusiast but sometimes war is fought within before unity is attained. There has been good sound arguments put op in this thread both for and against the hole and when this is settled the less powerful will have to support the powerful against the real enemy which is any cars that line up againstus at the track and our united dsm community and I am all for that Do your test and the results will be what they will be and I am confident the community will benefit

Fair enough. I'm working on the car right now. Getting it ready for march 2nd hits with the 14b and a couple small upgrades. This is perfect because I need to find a pressure for my car that's low enough to keep the engine alive yet not to high that it creates the slightest decrease in power.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

You really strained credibility once you called me a "racist."

Unless you are actually an english speaking, computer savvy tiger. In which case I could see why a hypothetical object intended to keep you at bay would be offensive.

In seriousness, how did you determine that we are not the same ethnicity/color in the first place? I don't post pictures of myself and I've never seen one of you.

I'm not out to prove you wrong. That part is inconsequential to me.

The position I've taken is not opposite of yours.

 

[Phantom DSM]

Fair enough. I'm working on the car right now. Getting it ready for march 2nd hits with the 14b and a couple small upgrades. This is perfect because I need to find a pressure for my car that's low enough to keep the engine alive yet not to high that it creates the slightest decrease in power.

If you can share data with us justin, it would be much appreciated ! I think everyone will benefit with more info on this thread. Sharing knowledge is better for the whole community. Im very interested in the outcome so all this can be settled guys

 

[1qkfwd]

Cleaning up my shop and I have 3 FFOFH laying here. The one on my car is ported. The other two are brand new

I found a few other different OFHs and you'll be a bit shocked as to what I found. When I get to a computer ill add the pics.

 

[keltalon]

You really strained credibility once you called me a "racist."

Unless you are actually an english speaking, computer savvy tiger. In which case I could see why a hypothetical object intended to keep you at bay would be offensive.

In seriousness, how did you determine that we are not the same ethnicity/color in the first place? I don't post pictures of myself and I've never seen one of you.

I'm not out to prove you wrong. That part is inconsequential to me.

The position I've taken is not opposite of yours.

Well I guess it was all a misunderstanding!

 

[dsmreck]

with my ffwd ffofh 2.4 bottom end 63 top Autometer oil pressure installed on the bottom of the ffofh I had 30 psi at warm idle and 100 psi at wot. 2.2 main and rod clearances brad penn 20 50 oil. I ended up porting the ffofh a bit to bring down the pressure. I ended up having 25 psi warm idle and 85 wot. I since have sold the motor and have no doubt it will last a long time like it is.
My current motor will be a high rev 2.0 and I will again most likely use the ffofh because I have no room for a filter with my turbo setup so if I do have an issue I will look into the fix kel did. if not oh well.

 

[1qkfwd]

Little info Ill just drop off here for you guys.

Aparently Mitsu decided that the FFOFH wasn't the only thing that needed an oil relief port.

Top pic: N/A 4G housing. Has oil relief port Little bit bigger than FFOFH
Second pic: 98 Hyundai Sonata housing (Same as N/A 4G 6-bolt) Had oil relief hole and is just about double the size of the FFOFH
Third pic: 90 Air cooled housing. Not that the spot where the relief hole is on the FFOFH. Same casting just no hole.
Last pic: N/A Sensor location. The gauge sensor is Post filter and the dummy light is Pre filter.

Also pulled a down facing housing off a 4G64 later year and no relief port.

 

[pneumo]

Sorry if this has been asked already, this thread is long and I haven't read the whole thing, but has anyone noticed if the extra oil bleed hole was only used on engines that did not come with balance shafts? Or SOHC vs DOHC? Or some other mechanical difference that uses up oil volume?

 

[1G Eclipse94928]

Sorry if this has been asked already, this thread is long and I haven't read the whole thing, but has anyone noticed if the extra oil bleed hole was only used on engines that did not come with balance shafts? Or SOHC vs DOHC? Or some other mechanical difference that uses up oil volume?

This is talking about FRONT FACING FILTERS. (aftermarket)
E: But if you look right above you this is some info on what your asking.

"Top pic: N/A 4G housing. Has oil relief port Little bit bigger than FFOFH
Second pic: 98 Hyundai Sonata housing (Same as N/A 4G 6-bolt) Had oil relief hole and is just about double the size of the FFOFH
Third pic: 90 Air cooled housing. Not that the spot where the relief hole is on the FFOFH. Same casting just no hole.
Last pic: N/A Sensor location. The gauge sensor is Post filter and the dummy light is Pre filter."

 

[ceedawg]

This is talking about FRONT FACING FILTERS. (aftermarket)


Why bring up more BS when were getting to the facts now? Its not about bias opinion its facts and the fact is he didn't even measure oil pressure. EVER. let alone test it on multiple places. Seems like your the one nut swinging.

You're right angry dude! Mine is welded Sorry you sound quite angry in all your posts. Don't worry you'll be alright!!!!

 

[1G Eclipse94928]

You're right angry dude! Mine is welded Sorry you sound quite angry in all your posts. Don't worry you'll be alright!!!!

I just use capitalization to highlight main points that I dont want you to miss.

Did you do any pressure measurements?

 

[SpoolinTalonAWD]

Wow. This thread is ridiculous!!

I'll chime in with my FFOFH experience. I run an unported FFOFH that was pulled of a clean truck from the scrapyard on a 6bolt with no balance shafts in my 99GSX. At operating temp, I see 15/16psi at idle, 85psi at 4500-7500prm and 60psi at cold starts. This is on a generic parts store mechanical oil gauge. (easier to believe than the stupid dash needle at least). Pressure is measured off the bottom port, post filter, from a brass ''T" which also feeds my HX35

Before this topic was brought up by keltaon, I was unaware of the possibility of the tiny hole in the housings, so I am unsure if my housing has the hole or not. Once I did find another SOHC 4g64 truck at the scrapper and pulled the FFOFH off of it to check it for the hole out of curiosity and it DID NOT have it.

 

[ceedawg]

I just use capitalization to highlight main points that I dont want you to miss.

Did you do any pressure measurements?

No not yet my car is in South Jersey 80 miles away from NYC where I live. Right now there is too much snow and its too cold to work on at the moment . Car is under a car cover outside of the garage. Hopefully the weather man is correct in his predictions of 50 degree weather coming up in one week or so I hope. I do have an aftermarket gauge in my car but I will get another gauge to connect to the oil port on the side of the head since my turbo is fed from the ofh. Hang in there with me I will certainly test when mother nature has mercy on us over here on the east side(best side I'll add)with this inclement weather.
Just promise us that you won't be the angry dude in the mean time

 

[1qkfwd]

That's everyone's story. We are all experiencing bad weather at the moment.

I have a pressure sensor already tapped in the head port towards the front of the head next to the turbo oil feed.

 

[pneumo]

This is talking about FRONT FACING FILTERS. (aftermarket)
E: But if you look right above you this is some info on what your asking.

"Top pic: N/A 4G housing. Has oil relief port Little bit bigger than FFOFH
Second pic: 98 Hyundai Sonata housing (Same as N/A 4G 6-bolt) Had oil relief hole and is just about double the size of the FFOFH
Third pic: 90 Air cooled housing. Not that the spot where the relief hole is on the FFOFH. Same casting just no hole.
Last pic: N/A Sensor location. The gauge sensor is Post filter and the dummy light is Pre filter."

I don't think you understand what I'm asking.
IMHO the extra hole in the FFOFH exists because oil pressure would be too high without it, but only on the engine it was originally intended for.

 

[pneumo]

dammmm. I have to remember to not jump into the middle of an argument.

Land-Speed-DSM wrote,"Now let's deal with a proper substantiation of Kelvin's claims which are fairly extraordinary. (Unmodified FFOFH are responsible for spun bearings)"

Oh is that what this is about? rofl. Sorry again for not reading the whole thread, I'm on my lunch break right now. Have there been any experienced engine builders in this thread yet? I'll offer my opinion; spun bearings are usually caused by tight oil clearance, thick oil and high rpm. Oil pressure does play a minor part in spun bearings, but usually it's from having oil pressure way too high.

Who's up for a friendly bet? No money on this since this is just the internet, and I don't know if anyone will actually test this, but I'll 'bet' the extra hole in the FFOFH lowers oil pressure by 35psi.
Do I hear 50psi?
who'll take 10psi?

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

dammmm. I have to remember to not jump into the middle of an argument.

Land-Speed-DSM wrote,"Now let's deal with a proper substantiation of Kelvin's claims which are fairly extraordinary. (Unmodified FFOFH are responsible for spun bearings)"

Oh is that what this is about? rofl. Sorry again for not reading the whole thread, I'm on my lunch break right now. Have there been any experienced engine builders in this thread yet? I'll offer my opinion; spun bearings are usually caused by tight oil clearance, thick oil and high rpm. Oil pressure does play a minor part in spun bearings, but usually it's from having oil pressure way too high.

Who's up for a friendly bet? No money on this since this is just the internet, and I don't know if anyone will actually test this, but I'll 'bet' the extra hole in the FFOFH lowers oil pressure by 35psi.
Do I hear 50psi?
who'll take 10psi?

Yes, Darren @ FFWD called BS on page #1.. for basically the same reasons everyone else has.

I'm staggered that my contentions were even the least bit controversial to some here, on a "Tech" forum.

 

[1qkfwd]

My vote is that yes oil pressure will be lower with the hole. But itll be lower at idle and not as much the higher the rpms. Not enough to damage a bottom end.

My guess is this. We shim for high pressures at higher rpm. We hog out the ofh return port to prevent a pressure creep in the same case as our FPR. But we drill or enlarge an oil relief to get our idle pressures in check.

 

[1qkfwd]

Well I got the car running and got an AEM 100psi sensor hooked up to link. Didn't change anything just logged off the head and then swapped the same sensor to the OFH that ive been running. My FFOFH is hogged out as you can tell by the pic. Im running 10-30 Brad Penn oil and a factory mitsu filter. Car has no B/S and does have the oil squirters.

Let the car warm up and with the sensor in the head I got the same results as I did with a mechanical gauge. It was 4-5psi at hot idle. It would raise with rpm and not go anything over 34-36psi. One strange thing I noticed is that the reading was very unstable.

So then I changed out the sensor and installed it to where the gauge port is on the OFH. Let the car warm up to 203 degrees again and hot idle it never dropped below 14 psi. Slowly revved the engine up to about 4000 stopping at each 1000 mark. By the time I got to 4000 oil pressure was already up to 75-80 psi. Got on the two step set to 6500rpm and the pressure had a small spike and settled in the mid 80s. Not enough to lose a bottom end.

After the readings, im not even sure its going to be worth anyone's time to compare vs a welded FFOFH because of how high my reading are. If you go by the 10/1000rpm rule of thumb, I'm way over that. As my gut told me, in a way I think that the relief hole should be bigger. Im getting way to much oil pressure at such a low rpm.

Heres two pics I took. The first is my housing with the gasket. That little relief sure has pressure just as I stated that it would. Low volume high pressure. Look how it blew a hole in the gasket. Second pic is a brand new FFOFH next to mine so you can see how hogged out mine is.

Ill leave this for a bit and let you guys discuss this data while I decide if its worth buying more gaskets and paying the $20-30 to weld the hole shut.

 

[chuckd]

Fwiw. I've only ran un modded unported ffofh. With no balance shafts, My cars run rotella 15-40 and they all see high boost high rpm and super high oil pressure

Most recent was ran for close to a year. On a 6262 42 psi and 9500 rpm shift points. Stock bottom end with arp rod bolts in UN recond rods I bent the rods due to to much timing and nitrous yet the bearing was mint. I think the port hole in the ffofh isn't effecting anything except idle pressure. Specially if your pump is worn.

 

[T is for TURBO]

Well I got the car running and got an AEM 100psi sensor hooked up to link. Didn't change anything just logged off the head and then swapped the same sensor to the OFH that ive been running. My FFOFH is hogged out as you can tell by the pic. Im running 10-30 Brad Penn oil and a factory mitsu filter. Car has no B/S and does have the oil squirters.

Let the car warm up and with the sensor in the head I got the same results as I did with a mechanical gauge. It was 4-5psi at hot idle. It would raise with rpm and not go anything over 34-36psi. One strange thing I noticed is that the reading was very unstable.

So then I changed out the sensor and installed it to where the gauge port is on the OFH. Let the car warm up to 203 degrees again and hot idle it never dropped below 14 psi. Slowly revved the engine up to about 4000 stopping at each 1000 mark. By the time I got to 4000 oil pressure was already up to 75-80 psi. Got on the two step set to 6500rpm and the pressure had a small spike and settled in the mid 80s. Not enough to lose a bottom end.

After the readings, im not even sure its going to be worth anyone's time to compare vs a welded FFOFH because of how high my reading are. If you go by the 10/1000rpm rule of thumb, I'm way over that. As my gut told me, in a way I think that the relief hole should be bigger. Im getting way to much oil pressure at such a low rpm.

Heres two pics I took. The first is my housing with the gasket. That little relief sure has pressure just as I stated that it would. Low volume high pressure. Look how it blew a hole in the gasket. Second pic is a brand new FFOFH next to mine so you can see how hogged out mine is.

Ill leave this for a bit and let you guys discuss this data while I decide if its worth buying more gaskets and paying the $20-30 to weld the hole shut.

Thanks for taking the time to do this. I would agree that you are in no short supply of oil pressure in the upper RPM band and clearly your relief valve is doing it's job. Your bottom end is certainly not in danger with those numbers. What kind of RPM do you rev to when at the track? Do you know what the oil pressure is at when your at your max rev-limit? Also, if I may ask, why do you feel your oil pressure is too high at low RPM?

Fwiw. I've only ran un modded unported ffofh. With no balance shafts, My cars run rotella 15-40 and they all see high boost high rpm and super high oil pressure

Most recent was ran for close to a year. On a 6262 42 psi and 9500 rpm shift points. Stock bottom end with arp rod bolts in UN recond rods I bent the rods due to to much timing and nitrous yet the bearing was mint. I think the port hole in the ffofh isn't effecting anything except idle pressure. Specially if your pump is worn.

That rod

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I'm sure Kelvin will be here to rationally discuss Justin's results, as soon as he's done calling me a racist in response to a technical dissection of his latest over-statements in this cam thread:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...492-thruth-cam-advertised-duration-etc-3.html

 

[Archer Fabrications]

^ really? You had to bring that up here to?