For 650WHP AWD what can we do

[CrazyGSX]

I would like to build a 650WHP transmission and what’s now on the market to do so.
I would love a evo 3 but that’s long gone.
So what do people do know for are cars?

 

[AndrewG]

Need to find a gear set out of a 90 or dogbox.

 

[EVLGSX]

the 2g trans has a decent 1/2, however 3/4 are a joke.

like mentioned above just look for a good 1990 3/4 setup to use and a 4 spider or welded center diff.

will still break eventually but your best bet for a budget synchro trans

 

[jdxnc]

As said, 90 gearsets with a proper preload and 4 spider center is about the most durable setup you can do on OEM parts, you will break it eventually, 3rd and 4th are usually the weak points.

After that, some people have sent off gearsets to Mathias Boldt in Germany and had him faceplate straight cut gears to 3-4, this takes up most of the weaknesses, however 1-2 are still oem gears. It's a much more robust setup and still retains syncros.

You last strongest/most expensive/least street friendly option is a PPG gearset. Not as friendly for street driving, you can easily money shift it and it's very pricey.

 

[motomattx]

I doubt that much of any of the Evo stuff would fit in our case, we really got shafted when Mitsubishi started clean slate with the Evo 4, but anyway:

https://shop.quaife.co.uk/mitsubishi-lancer-evolution-4-9-heavy-duty-5-speed-sequential-gearbox

https://www.samsonas.com/gearbox/6/

With the loss of factory parts these days I would think that this company would step up to the plate for the Evo 1-3, Galant, 3000gt, Stealth, 1g and 2g Dsm guys that could use a transmission replacement...honestly I cant see the Honda market being bigger for this expensive stuff, if they think that Dsm guys don't spend money, the Honda guys really don't have money to spend, yet the aftermarket companies offer multiple solutions for those guys, same goes for the BMW market, how many heavily modified BMW's do you see out there with sequential shift transmissions? I have never seen a single one, nor have I ever seen a fast BMW drag car at any track, but yet they are catered to because they are seen as having money to spend, yet they really don't spend it.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

I doubt that much of any of the Evo stuff would fit in our case, we really got shafted when Mitsubishi started clean slate with the Evo 4, but anyway:

https://shop.quaife.co.uk/mitsubishi-lancer-evolution-4-9-heavy-duty-5-speed-sequential-gearbox

https://www.samsonas.com/gearbox/6/

With the loss of factory parts these days I would think that this company would step up to the plate for the Evo 1-3, Galant, 3000gt, Stealth, 1g and 2g Dsm guys that could use a transmission replacement...honestly I cant see the Honda market being bigger for this expensive stuff, if they think that Dsm guys don't spend money, the Honda guys really don't have money to spend, yet the aftermarket companies offer multiple solutions for those guys, same goes for the BMW market, how many heavily modified BMW's do you see out there with sequential shift transmissions? I have never seen a single one, nor have I ever seen a fast BMW drag car at any track, but yet they are catered to because they are seen as having money to spend, yet they really don't spend it.

Actually when i was at quaife a lot of bits were being made for hondas and small amounts for mitsu cars! I believe honda do spend alot more then we do (DSM) but the evo still spends more then us but its doen to the people,

I could ask quaife to look into gear sets as its possible but would be thousands for a complete set no doubt. But i believe TMZ was looking into it so he might be able to come up with something state side

 

[Vegas Smith]

What you do is monitor Facebook etc for people selling transmissions and just pounce on any and every transmission you see. When one breaks, you have another to throw in or rebuild.

 

[Canadian_CD9A]

What you do is monitor Facebook etc for people selling transmissions and just pounce on any and every transmission you see. When one breaks, you have another to throw in or rebuild.

I hate this method, it's what lead to shortages in the first place. If you have a big power transmission, build appropriately instead of driving up prices for everyone else too. Buy a damn dogbox if you have that kind of power, there are tons of options and we are still getting more entries and products being developed. Or swap to the 4-9 and have endless options, including the sequentials.

 

[Vegas Smith]

I hate this method, it's what lead to shortages in the first place. If you have a big power transmission, build appropriately instead of driving up prices for everyone else too. Buy a damn dogbox if you have that kind of power, there are tons of options and we are still getting more entries and products being developed. Or swap to the 4-9 and have endless options, including the sequentials.

Meh, I don't agree that prices are being driven up or that there is a shortage of transmissions due to this practice. What does a transmission cost nowadays? 250-$450? That's incredibly cheap. I just bought one for $150. If you told me you had to fist-fight a guy for a $1200 broken core then maybe you'd have a point. I'm not going to buy a dogbox because I don't feel like dropping $6500 on a transmission when I can buy one for $150 and have it last me a year or two. To this day I've never broken a transmission but I'll have plenty extras when I do.

 

[Canadian_CD9A]

Meh, I don't agree that prices are being driven up or that there is a shortage of transmissions due to this practice. What does a transmission cost nowadays? 250-$450? That's incredibly cheap. I just bought one for $150. If you told me you had to fist-fight a guy for a $1200 broken core then maybe you'd have a point. I'm not going to buy a dogbox because I don't feel like dropping $6500 on a transmission when I can buy one for $150 and have it last me a year or two. To this day I've never broken a transmission but I'll have plenty extras when I do.

$1200 is very close to the going rate on an Evo 3 transmission and there is a ton of competition, which prices people out of the market. They used to be $500 but spiked because people kept buying them for the sake of running them until they broke, and then getting another. It's almost a weekly occurrence here that people ask for an Evo transmission to put behind their 500+ HP engine, because it's the easy and convenient thing to do. There is a reason why the question is asked more often now - it's because we're running out of spare and easily available Evo/HD transmissions to ruin, when people just called up an importer 5 years ago and got what they wanted shipped in. DSM and Evo owners took the parts for granted and ran them thinking they would never run out.

 

[Vegas Smith]

$1200 is very close to the going rate on an Evo 3 transmission and there is a ton of competition, which prices people out of the market. They used to be $500 but spiked because people kept buying them for the sake of running them until they broke, and then getting another. It's almost a weekly occurrence here that people ask for an Evo transmission to put behind their 500+ HP engine, because it's the easy and convenient thing to do. There is a reason why the question is asked more often now - it's because we're running out of spare and easily available Evo/HD transmissions to ruin, when people just called up an importer 5 years ago and got what they wanted shipped in. DSM and Evo owners took the parts for granted and ran them thinking they would never run out.

It's the ole "if I don't do it, someone else will" mentality, and I don't think people should necessarily be judged harshly for that. We can't expect people to drop 6k on a dogbox for their hobby car because they know that in 7 years a guy in Iowa will have a rough time looking for a transmission. It's not how the human brain works. We do what's best for us and that includes grabbing a couple spare transmissions and letting the chips fall where they may. The answer is for someone to step up and have these discontinued parts made so that we drop $450 when we break something, not $6k.

 

[1cleangsx]

I’ve got my old original 90 trans tucked away for that same reason. It still wasn’t grinding in any gear but I’m sure it could use a refresh, I’ve now swapped over my shifter base/cables to a 91-94 to run the jacks hd unit, but keep thinking maybe one day I’ll tear into the 90 trans and harvest something, but then again I know there’s a lot of incompatible parts between the 90 and every other year so who knows

 

[EVLGSX]

I’ve got my old original 90 trans tucked away for that same reason. It still wasn’t grinding in any gear but I’m sure it could use a refresh, I’ve now swapped over my shifter base/cables to a 91-94 to run the jacks hd unit, but keep thinking maybe one day I’ll tear into the 90 trans and harvest something, but then again I know there’s a lot of incompatible parts between the 90 and every other year so who knows

good parts in there for sure

-good 3/4 gears

- good 3/4 hub/slider that can be machined for use with evo3 3/4 if desired in any year DSM

-entire gear set can be used in any year

 

[DSMPT]

I’ve got my old original 90 trans tucked away for that same reason. It still wasn’t grinding in any gear but I’m sure it could use a refresh, I’ve now swapped over my shifter base/cables to a 91-94 to run the jacks hd unit, but keep thinking maybe one day I’ll tear into the 90 trans and harvest something, but then again I know there’s a lot of incompatible parts between the 90 and every other year so who knows

Sorry off topic. You don't need to swap the shifter base and cables to use a 91-94 transmission in a 90 (or vice versa). just swap the selector arm and the cable bracket on the transmission. Next time when you go back with the 90 trans with 91-94 shifter base and cables that you already have, that would make it easier.

 

[bastarddsm]

idk why everyone boners over the evo stuff. If you have any turbo and cam first is too tall, none of it is any stronger, you don't need double synchro's to shift fast if you fix the clutch, and the 5th is too tall if you have any cam in a 2.0. Unless you have the Evo finals, then the first and 5 kicks ass.


FWIW, there are only like 3 things you can do to a dsm trans with oem gears to improve strength/durability.
1. upper torrington bearing mod
2. 4 spider/welded cd
3. 92 and earlier 3/4 gears and hub/slider.

Anything else is a waste of time, and any "builds" outside of that do nothing but marginally help shift quality. So really this hole "wasting trans by running them till the break shit" is bs. They ain't gonna live longer no matter what you do.

Guys should be bitching at everyone who recommends a mega clutch. I'm guilty of running more clutch than I needed, and it's hard on the trans. But I've been backing it off and going faster as a result. (i'm down to an ebay XTD STG4 right now 9's, 144mph,3200lbs - You don't need a twin, or a 2900, or a 3200, or some 5000lbs pressure plate and puck disc) If you have a 700 ft*lbs clutch, your trans will see 700 ft*lbs regardless of what your engine makes.

Guys should be bitching at the shops and 1320vid, and the bs posers who glorify having some mega power car. a 500hp dsm is a fairly fast car, it's enough to get out of hand, it's enough to put you in jail, it's enough to kill you, it pulls hard enough to impress some bimbo with big tits. And guess what, they stay together pretty well at that level if your not an idiot. Even the trans does! you start thinking you need 7-8-900, and shit goes downhill fast. And yet every broke dick in the world runs these poor cars into the ground trying to do it.

Anyway, if you have a 650whp car, budget a trans a year. Use a sensible clutch, and keep the torque low, it will last pretty well. At the bare min, I recommend taking it apart and checking over/repair/weld/4spider the cd, make sure bearings are good, and some fresh synchros, even if they are good used ones . That's what I did till I bought a PPG.

For those wondering about replacement parts, I wouldn't hold your breath. It will be a massive undertaking, and they will be expensive. A stock replacement set, might end up costing just as much as a PPG set, and it will likely be a pay upfront, and wait 2 years kind of deal. I'm thinking it's gonna need like 100 sets at $3-4k paid upfront. Start saving your pennies.

 

[1cleangsx]

So along with say a 2600/SSX pressure plate, what’s your favorite disc? Organic? Feramic or Ceramic, I’m at a deciding point and you just talked me out of a twin disc , my car will always a full weight car, that’s the way I like’em

 

[1cleangsx]

Sorry off topic. You don't need to swap the shifter base and cables to use a 91-94 transmission in a 90 (or vice versa). just swap the selector arm and the cable bracket on the transmission. Next time when you go back with the 90 trans with 91-94 shifter base and cables that you already have, that would make it easier.

I appreciate the input, I just read thru some old threads on here of people swapping out 90 trannies into 91-94’s and vice versa having shifting issues, due to one of the cables being different lengths and I know the shift levers are different, I just wanted everything to match for hopefully less headache

 

[bastarddsm]

I don't really know. I've not ran personally any SBC products. My brother has a SS pressure plate in his gallant with a parts store stock disc, and it's been 12.8@108 on a 20G. I can say that the pressure plates seem to be made from excedy (OEM) parts which is a good thing. The pp stays flatter longer, more crack resistant ime. Old ACT was like this, new ACT is SEECO, and shit. XTD is the same stuff, light duty pressure ring, (cracks and warps easy) thin light duty cover, which hurts release.

I probably don't think much of the SBC discs, just from what data I've collected through observation. If they had a 4 puck and it was competitve $$ with ACT I'd try them.

I really like the ACT discs. The ACT pucks are the meanest grabbiest grippiest disc there is, and a rubber band will wold power with them . There is a tradeoff, they are soft, and they don't last a long time. I got maybe 50 hits out of a 6 puck with the PPG, but it has a really tall first gear and it's really hard on the clutch. I really like the ACT street discs too. ACT has been good to me on a couple warranty issues I've had (even though it was user error/nature of the beast/abuse), and they have repucked a few discs for me free, and given me a deep discount on stuff I wore out fast.

The xtd shit is cheap, but like i said, I went 9's with thier pressure plate and an ACT disc, and I think the XTD solid disc would hold it, but they don't have one for the PPG input shaft. I will note that the hubs come loose on the solid discs, and I fixed one by adding like 8 additional smash rivets i bought at the hardware store. The sprung disc sucks imo, low u, and it fades bad with heat. Probably need like 6-700lbs more clamp to hold what a solid holds. I'd run an act street disc before an xtd sprung nowdays.

There is sort of a widespread notion that puck discs will hold more torque with the same clamp as a street/organic disc. That's not really true, there are dozens of puck compounds, and some of them are very low friction (u), and some of them loose friction with heat. XTD sprung discs are like this, low u, and loose it with heat. The XTD solid are much higher u, and and gain with heat, they also wear very slow, The ACT's are high friction, get more with heat and wear fast. I think some of the SBC pucks are kinda like the XTD ones.

If you want quick shifts, I'd avoid any 6 puck, and go for the lightest disc possible. That's going to be some sort of a organic street disc or a 4 puck.
I really liked the 2900 street disc combo, and I bet that would have been good for close to 150mph traps, I went 140 with no signs of slipping. If I was starting from scratch, I'd probably go for a 2100/ss/stock pressure plate and try an ACT street disc. if that slips go to the next pp up.

REMEMBER, the clutch companies want to over sell you a clutch, cause if it slips, people complain, and it's a warranty issue. The fastest drag cars in the world slip the clutch the entire pass..... Lastly my experiences/reccomendation are street/drag oriented. You road race guys may have an entire separate set of expectations.

 

[1cleangsx]

Awesome info thank you! Sorry for pulling this thread off topic Right now the money is going into my motor, but after that I’ll need a clutch to go with the trans I bought, so far I have a new act flywheel to replace my old act flywheel, my old 2600 with unsprung street disc was great, I logged over 60 lb/per min on the dsm82 and it never missed a beat, even after roasting it bad one time on a botched launch, I let it cool down and it still held, but now I’m shooting for more power and more clutch I guess, I was strongly considering the 2900/street disc combo but you’ve got me worried on the quality of their pressure plates

 

[EVLGSX]

Ive been liking the Act 2600 pp with the SB full face kevlar disc. Ive been wanting to swap the 2600 pp for a 2100 just to see if I can get away with it and to improve drivability/shift quality

Ive tried an Exedy OEM pp and it just slips (with a full face disc).

 

[clutchtamer]

Guys should be bitching at everyone who recommends a mega clutch. I'm guilty of running more clutch than I needed, and it's hard on the trans. But I've been backing it off and going faster as a result. (i'm down to an ebay XTD STG4 right now 9's, 144mph,3200lbs - You don't need a twin, or a 2900, or a 3200, or some 5000lbs pressure plate and puck disc) If you have a 700 ft*lbs clutch, your trans will see 700 ft*lbs regardless of what your engine makes.

Have you seen my new Hitmaster clutch hit control system? It can make that 700ftlb clutch hit like a 450. You still get all the ultimate holding power of that 700, but with a soft adjustable hit that doesn't hurt anything and is easy to dial in for both intensity and duration. Allows you to buy an overkill clutch, then dial back it's hit to what works best for you. Easily configured to be active on launch only, or active on launch + shifts if you also need drivetrain protection on the shifts as well. Here's a link... http://grannys.tripod.com/hitmaster.html

Grant

 

[bastarddsm]

Yep, all-ready made one and tried it. Slick idea, but damn line-locks are to finicky IMO. Also that bit about dot airbrake line is no good for use. I see 1000psi of line pressure, they failed.

 

[clutchtamer]

Yep, all-ready made one and tried it. Slick idea, but damn line-locks are to finicky IMO. Also that bit about dot airbrake line is no good for use. I see 1000psi of line pressure, they failed.

Your statement about line-locks makes me think we may not be on the same page? In my system the solenoid valve opens roughly around the speed/rpm sync point after launch. At that point the clutch is already locked up, so valve timing isn't super critical to traction as the valve isn't controlling a significant energy discharge.

I'm thinking your system may have been one that tried to use a solenoid valve to stop fluid return flow at a certain point?

Grant

 

[bastarddsm]

A linelock has a check valve in parallel with the solenoid valve. When the clutch is depressed, there is equal pressure on either side, and it is not fully seated. Depending on how you release the clutch changes when it actually seats. This can have quite an effect on where the clutch ends up on the first stage of the hitmaster. Then after a certain ammount of time it dumps the line lock and lets the clutch go.

There's a few things about these cars that make them "different" than your normal clientele. For a lot of us (normal center differential), they behave more like a fwd than a rwd, in first gear with stock ratios they will only hold about 350-400 ft*lbs on a set of hoosiers and average track prep, and then we don't have the weight transfer to help lock them back into the track - so we have to hit them very very soft to keep from knocking them loose right off the bat. For others with stock driveline, and a welded center diff, that limit still exists, it's just a bit higher probably in 500-550 range, and independent of track prep, hit it any harder, and it explodes rear end driveline parts. A welded diff car is especially sensitive after the car has rolled out a bit and planted the rears - the front has been "lifted" and you get like 70+% power transfer to the rear. A clutch lockup here is catastrophic! Not to mention, it left with 15-20psi,and the engine making 400 ft*lbs, to now it having 30+ and being 5-600 ft*lbs.

And that is also a big part of what makes this application difficult, the time/load dependant torque curve. Very few of us can generate the boost levels at the line that we run down track.

 

[clutchtamer]

1st stage TOB pressure in my car typically repeats within 5lbs when the pedal is released from a stop, check valve is spring loaded with an o-ring seal on the poppet. Uses a 13/16" master, system likely operates with more overall fluid displacement than yours.

Are 3/4 stages needed? Bleeds to make stages separately progressive are also a possibility.

I'm working on a system that uses co2 pressure to temporarily reduce clutch clamp after a clutchless shift, some possibilities there as well.

Grant