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1G Best non-Dogbox we can get?

90moneypit

Proven Member
422
6
Mar 2, 2010
treefall, Washington
Wow! After letting her hibernate for a decade, I've finally got some resources to finish off the Moneypit (aka Looseal) now all the transmissions options have disappeared...

Still rocking the 90 AWD tranny and tcase but now that I can upgrade the from the E3 manifold/turbo/O2 (yes, that old of a setup) it looks like upping the power is going to break everything else downstream.

The question then is: Now that all the E3 transmission bits are gone, how far can I or anyone else take the stock parts with shotpeening, EMF, and/or Liberty gearing what is still available? The original goal was 500awhp and all the internals are there for that.

Current plan is to upgrade to full ECMLink from 2.5, new clutch for whatever power level doesn't grenade the drive train and pick another turbo to match.

Tim's busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest and still seems to be the man in the know. I tried searching but all I could find was the defacto 400 ft/lbs of torque on stock internals. He offers both the detail/shot peen and REM options, but how much more is each option going to extend the transmissions capability?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mech Addict

Supporting Member
964
405
Jun 9, 2019
Jackson, Wyoming
This might also come down to how you really intend to use that power and torque, and how long do you intend it to last. Drag racing must be the hardest on everything. If your basically cruising around and romp it from time to time, very different scenario. Road race is probably somewhere in between.
You could also upgrade the trans/xfer to a 91+. I purchased a set of 90 units to swap with my original 90 units. Had the “new” ones rebuilt at TRE. There are a few other shops I considered, and likely would have been happy with any of the dsm platform specialists. I did have some shot peening for best shifting a longevity, but my mill is stock. I don’t want to stray far from stock on my restoration. One thing I’ve considered in the future would be a 6 bolt stroker, but not convinced forged pistons are so great for dd.
I was told by my transmission guy (Jon Ripple) that a 90 is safe up to 350hp. After that, chance of damage goes up. A dsm can’t be all things, of course, and some options are dwindling, as you’ve noted. With more power you’ll need stiffer motor mounts, and get vibration. You’d do well with stiffer suspension, with harsher ride. What are you willing to give up for the rush of power? If the answer is smooth shifting, it’s dog box time.

BTW; brilliant username! LOLLOLLOLLOL
 

Chewy4g63

Proven Member
88
23
Sep 8, 2021
Lakeside, Arizona
Wow! After letting her hibernate for a decade, I've finally got some resources to finish off the Moneypit (aka Looseal) now all the transmissions options have disappeared... Still rocking the 90 AWD tranny and tcase but now that I can upgrade the from the E3 manifold/turbo/O2 (yes, that old of a setup) it looks like upping the power is going to break everything else downstream. The question then is: Now that all the E3 transmission bits are gone, how far can I or anyone else take the stock parts with shotpeening, EMF, and/or Liberty gearing what is still available? The original goal was 500awhp and all the internals are there for that. Current plan is to upgrade to full ECMLink from 2.5, new clutch for whatever power level doesn't grenade the drive train and pick another turbo to match. Tim's busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest and still seems to be the man in the know. I tried searching but all I could find was the defacto 400 ft/lbs of torque on stock internals. He offers both the detail/shot peen and REM options, but how much more is each option going to extend the transmissions capability?
Evo 1-3 gearboxes, and 92+ 4 bolt rear diffs can get you there as far as I know
 

twicks69

Supporting Vendor
4,020
1,224
Mar 12, 2004
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Regarding gearsets, well, there is only so much we can do with OEM Mitsu anymore. Especially being a 90 trans with the early shift rails, and the 90 style gearset. There are two variations of 90 style gearsets. 1989-early 1990 use a unique intermediate shaft, 1st and 2nd gears with small diameter needle bearings, small diameter 1st needle bearing sleeve, small diameter 1st/2nd hub and slider. The late 1990-early 91 gearset uses a large diameter 1st needle bearing sleeve (late 90-94 style), large diameter 1st/2nd hub and slider (late 90-99 style), large diameter 1/2 needle bearings (late 90-99), and matching large diameter 1st/2nd gears (late 90- mid 91 style before the dog tooth version change).

If it is an early 90 gearset with the small diameter needle bearing 1/2, there is very little that can be done with it's 1/2 cluster or intermediate shaft because the 1st bearing sleeve, intermediate shaft, 1st/2nd hub and slider, 1st/2nd gears are not interchangeable with the late 90-early 91 shaft parts.

With a 90 also, you have the long tab shift selector which correlates with 90-91.5 style shift rails that are puny and weak. The conversion parts to 91.6-92.5 style stuff are all discontinued.

There are limited to zero late style new intermediate shafts, center diff housings, 3rd/4th gears. I have some parts sitting on shelves that are in decent shape as backups though. I don't think there are any remaining new 1st gears, and very limited double synchro 2nd gears.

Center diff housings, center diff covers, center diff pinion gearsets and nearly every single center diff oiling shim are discontinued. I have some machined housings remaining, but zero pinion gearsets to make a 4 spider center diff unless the customer supplies them. The covers are discontinued but I have a couple remaining. My machined tool steel cross shafts should be back in stock around February 2022. So that means essentially welded center diff is your only option with usable components, or supply your own spider gears and wait a few months for a batch of cross shafts to arrive.

There are no more 3rd/4th hub and sliders. Like zero, zilch, nada, kaput. Synchros are available, but only the 1/2 hub and slider is remaining as of right now. There is one guy trying to machine hub and sliders, but they will be expensive and are not completed by him yet. He showed me a few pictures and they look really nice, but I have not test fit any of them yet.

Now with that said, it can only be a limited rebuild using OEM parts. If you are intending on doing a surface treatment, the best choice would be to debur and detail the gearset and shot peen the components. Best bang for buck.

There are no more shift rails. None whatsoever new from Mitsu. I have extremely limited 91.6-99 style 1st/2nd, 91.6-92.5 and 92.6-99 style 3rd/4th with a small stash of Evo 3 3rd/4th rails, and extremely limited 91.6-96 and 97-99 5/R rails remaining. The Evo 3 rails are new, the others are used on the shelf.

As for alternatives to the OEM gearset,
PPG Dogbox -
best quality components, quickest and easiest to get the initial parts and spare parts down the road during refreshing, excellent customer service. A PPG 1-4 gearset with spool center diff option is your best choice. The 4 spider center diff option is useless if there are no pinion gearsets or diff covers available anymore. Most reputable place. You will still need numerous OEM parts for the assembly, along with machining of your transmission case, and significant time clearancing all the components so it plays nicely with everything internally.

MTM Custom Gear Ratios (facebook) - they have worked on a bunch of gears and shaft manufacturing for all different platforms. I am sure he could make a straight cut synchro or dog engagement gearset with spool center diff, but expect designing time, R&D, and cost. He has done some pretty darn nice stuff though. He is in Thailand.
His facebook page is - https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=mtm custom gear ratios

Liberty Gears - The face plating option removes the synchro cone and the gear gets machined down and a face plate dog engagement ring welded onto the gear. They use their own 1/2 and 3/4 hub and sliders which are more durable than the OEM parts. Benefits - fast shifting, more durable hub and sliders. Negatives - same weak gear that will fail and strip teeth off. Insanely slow services, expect 6-12 month turnaround for the machining services because they are so short staffed.

PAR Engineering - if you want to wait 3 years to get your parts, have spotty customer service / communication, and simply want to suffer, here you go. In the past they were excellent, but over the last 6-7 years it has gone down in quality across the board. Though they have a straight cut synchro gearset, there are no 3/4 hub and sliders from Mitsu, so you are wasting time.

There is some Malaysia place out there selling a straight cut intermediate shaft, 3rd/4th gearset and spool center, I think it is the same place that made the knockoffs of the boostin bearing plate, Frontline Fab valve cover and rear diff cover, etc. I don't have the information for this place, but with some looking you could find it.
 

clutchtamer

Proven Member
45
11
Apr 29, 2015
Concrete, Washington
Wow! After letting her hibernate for a decade, I've finally got some resources to finish off the Moneypit (aka Looseal) now all the transmissions options have disappeared... Still rocking the 90 AWD tranny and tcase but now that I can upgrade the from the E3 manifold/turbo/O2 (yes, that old of a setup) it looks like upping the power is going to break everything else downstream. The question then is: Now that all the E3 transmission bits are gone, how far can I or anyone else take the stock parts with shotpeening, EMF, and/or Liberty gearing what is still available? The original goal was 500awhp and all the internals are there for that. Current plan is to upgrade to full ECMLink from 2.5, new clutch for whatever power level doesn't grenade the drive train and pick another turbo to match. Tim's busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest and still seems to be the man in the know. I tried searching but all I could find was the defacto 400 ft/lbs of torque on stock internals. He offers both the detail/shot peen and REM options, but how much more is each option going to extend the transmissions capability?

Don't forget clutch engagement control devices to reduce impact on the gears, which effectively increases the amount of power you can get thru a given gearset before shucking teeth. Here's a page with a list of devices that can be found on the web...
https://grannys.tripod.com/clutchcontrol.html

Grant
 

streetraceboi

Moderator
818
348
Sep 4, 2002
San Antonio, Texas
Regarding gearsets, well, there is only so much we can do with OEM Mitsu anymore. Especially being a 90 trans with the early shift rails, and the 90 style gearset. There are two variations of 90 style gearsets. 1989-early 1990 use a unique intermediate shaft, 1st and 2nd gears with small diameter needle bearings, small diameter 1st needle bearing sleeve, small diameter 1st/2nd hub and slider. The late 1990-early 91 gearset uses a large diameter 1st needle bearing sleeve (late 90-94 style), large diameter 1st/2nd hub and slider (late 90-99 style), large diameter 1/2 needle bearings (late 90-99), and matching large diameter 1st/2nd gears (late 90- mid 91 style before the dog tooth version change).

If it is an early 90 gearset with the small diameter needle bearing 1/2, there is very little that can be done with it's 1/2 cluster or intermediate shaft because the 1st bearing sleeve, intermediate shaft, 1st/2nd hub and slider, 1st/2nd gears are not interchangeable with the late 90-early 91 shaft parts.

With a 90 also, you have the long tab shift selector which correlates with 90-91.5 style shift rails that are puny and weak. The conversion parts to 91.6-92.5 style stuff are all discontinued.

There are limited to zero late style new intermediate shafts, center diff housings, 3rd/4th gears. I have some parts sitting on shelves that are in decent shape as backups though. I don't think there are any remaining new 1st gears, and very limited double synchro 2nd gears.

Center diff housings, center diff covers, center diff pinion gearsets and nearly every single center diff oiling shim are discontinued. I have some machined housings remaining, but zero pinion gearsets to make a 4 spider center diff unless the customer supplies them. The covers are discontinued but I have a couple remaining. My machined tool steel cross shafts should be back in stock around February 2022. So that means essentially welded center diff is your only option with usable components, or supply your own spider gears and wait a few months for a batch of cross shafts to arrive.

There are no more 3rd/4th hub and sliders. Like zero, zilch, nada, kaput. Synchros are available, but only the 1/2 hub and slider is remaining as of right now. There is one guy trying to machine hub and sliders, but they will be expensive and are not completed by him yet. He showed me a few pictures and they look really nice, but I have not test fit any of them yet.

Now with that said, it can only be a limited rebuild using OEM parts. If you are intending on doing a surface treatment, the best choice would be to debur and detail the gearset and shot peen the components. Best bang for buck.

There are no more shift rails. None whatsoever new from Mitsu. I have extremely limited 91.6-99 style 1st/2nd, 91.6-92.5 and 92.6-99 style 3rd/4th with a small stash of Evo 3 3rd/4th rails, and extremely limited 91.6-96 and 97-99 5/R rails remaining. The Evo 3 rails are new, the others are used on the shelf.

As for alternatives to the OEM gearset,
PPG Dogbox -
best quality components, quickest and easiest to get the initial parts and spare parts down the road during refreshing, excellent customer service. A PPG 1-4 gearset with spool center diff option is your best choice. The 4 spider center diff option is useless if there are no pinion gearsets or diff covers available anymore. Most reputable place. You will still need numerous OEM parts for the assembly, along with machining of your transmission case, and significant time clearancing all the components so it plays nicely with everything internally.

MTM Custom Gear Ratios (facebook) - they have worked on a bunch of gears and shaft manufacturing for all different platforms. I am sure he could make a straight cut synchro or dog engagement gearset with spool center diff, but expect designing time, R&D, and cost. He has done some pretty darn nice stuff though. He is in Thailand.
His facebook page is - https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=mtm custom gear ratios

Liberty Gears - The face plating option removes the synchro cone and the gear gets machined down and a face plate dog engagement ring welded onto the gear. They use their own 1/2 and 3/4 hub and sliders which are more durable than the OEM parts. Benefits - fast shifting, more durable hub and sliders. Negatives - same weak gear that will fail and strip teeth off. Insanely slow services, expect 6-12 month turnaround for the machining services because they are so short staffed.

PAR Engineering - if you want to wait 3 years to get your parts, have spotty customer service / communication, and simply want to suffer, here you go. In the past they were excellent, but over the last 6-7 years it has gone down in quality across the board. Though they have a straight cut synchro gearset, there are no 3/4 hub and sliders from Mitsu, so you are wasting time.

There is some Malaysia place out there selling a straight cut intermediate shaft, 3rd/4th gearset and spool center, I think it is the same place that made the knockoffs of the boostin bearing plate, Frontline Fab valve cover and rear diff cover, etc. I don't have the information for this place, but with some looking you could find it.
Long story short. Go auto or cough up $$ for a dogbox :|
 

90moneypit

Proven Member
422
6
Mar 2, 2010
treefall, Washington
Regarding gearsets, well, there is only so much we can do with OEM Mitsu anymore. Especially being a 90 trans with the early shift rails, and the 90 style gearset. There are two variations of 90 style gearsets. 1989-early 1990 use a unique intermediate shaft, 1st and 2nd gears with small diameter needle bearings, small diameter 1st needle bearing sleeve, small diameter 1st/2nd hub and slider. The late 1990-early 91 gearset uses a large diameter 1st needle bearing sleeve (late 90-94 style), large diameter 1st/2nd hub and slider (late 90-99 style), large diameter 1/2 needle bearings (late 90-99), and matching large diameter 1st/2nd gears (late 90- mid 91 style before the dog tooth version change).

If it is an early 90 gearset with the small diameter needle bearing 1/2, there is very little that can be done with it's 1/2 cluster or intermediate shaft because the 1st bearing sleeve, intermediate shaft, 1st/2nd hub and slider, 1st/2nd gears are not interchangeable with the late 90-early 91 shaft parts.

With a 90 also, you have the long tab shift selector which correlates with 90-91.5 style shift rails that are puny and weak. The conversion parts to 91.6-92.5 style stuff are all discontinued.

There are limited to zero late style new intermediate shafts, center diff housings, 3rd/4th gears. I have some parts sitting on shelves that are in decent shape as backups though. I don't think there are any remaining new 1st gears, and very limited double synchro 2nd gears.

Center diff housings, center diff covers, center diff pinion gearsets and nearly every single center diff oiling shim are discontinued. I have some machined housings remaining, but zero pinion gearsets to make a 4 spider center diff unless the customer supplies them. The covers are discontinued but I have a couple remaining. My machined tool steel cross shafts should be back in stock around February 2022. So that means essentially welded center diff is your only option with usable components, or supply your own spider gears and wait a few months for a batch of cross shafts to arrive.

There are no more 3rd/4th hub and sliders. Like zero, zilch, nada, kaput. Synchros are available, but only the 1/2 hub and slider is remaining as of right now. There is one guy trying to machine hub and sliders, but they will be expensive and are not completed by him yet. He showed me a few pictures and they look really nice, but I have not test fit any of them yet.

Now with that said, it can only be a limited rebuild using OEM parts. If you are intending on doing a surface treatment, the best choice would be to debur and detail the gearset and shot peen the components. Best bang for buck.

There are no more shift rails. None whatsoever new from Mitsu. I have extremely limited 91.6-99 style 1st/2nd, 91.6-92.5 and 92.6-99 style 3rd/4th with a small stash of Evo 3 3rd/4th rails, and extremely limited 91.6-96 and 97-99 5/R rails remaining. The Evo 3 rails are new, the others are used on the shelf.

As for alternatives to the OEM gearset,
PPG Dogbox -
best quality components, quickest and easiest to get the initial parts and spare parts down the road during refreshing, excellent customer service. A PPG 1-4 gearset with spool center diff option is your best choice. The 4 spider center diff option is useless if there are no pinion gearsets or diff covers available anymore. Most reputable place. You will still need numerous OEM parts for the assembly, along with machining of your transmission case, and significant time clearancing all the components so it plays nicely with everything internally.

MTM Custom Gear Ratios (facebook) - they have worked on a bunch of gears and shaft manufacturing for all different platforms. I am sure he could make a straight cut synchro or dog engagement gearset with spool center diff, but expect designing time, R&D, and cost. He has done some pretty darn nice stuff though. He is in Thailand.
His facebook page is - https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=mtm custom gear ratios

Liberty Gears - The face plating option removes the synchro cone and the gear gets machined down and a face plate dog engagement ring welded onto the gear. They use their own 1/2 and 3/4 hub and sliders which are more durable than the OEM parts. Benefits - fast shifting, more durable hub and sliders. Negatives - same weak gear that will fail and strip teeth off. Insanely slow services, expect 6-12 month turnaround for the machining services because they are so short staffed.

PAR Engineering - if you want to wait 3 years to get your parts, have spotty customer service / communication, and simply want to suffer, here you go. In the past they were excellent, but over the last 6-7 years it has gone down in quality across the board. Though they have a straight cut synchro gearset, there are no 3/4 hub and sliders from Mitsu, so you are wasting time.

There is some Malaysia place out there selling a straight cut intermediate shaft, 3rd/4th gearset and spool center, I think it is the same place that made the knockoffs of the boostin bearing plate, Frontline Fab valve cover and rear diff cover, etc. I don't have the information for this place, but with some looking you could find it.
That's what I was afraid of. Being the Moneypit, it is, of course, a Dec 89 built chassis with all the red flags for a build that I ignored 17 years ago when I bought her: ebay 3GT, rattle can paint, clear Daddy issues if ever a car could have them, she does have the long tab selectors on the transmission and a 90 shifter inside along with an aluminum t-case. The weird part is, she still shifts good without any lockouts or grinding. It looks like my best bet for a street car would be to swap to 92+ transmission before you run out or transplant to the 92 tsi (I'd planned to flip her since she was a well documented stocker) and send in that transmission before you run out. Finding the gears will suck but I don't mind waiting on your shafts until Feb, I've waited a decade already. Hmmm, time to find out what's hiding underneath the tsi's tail and think about turning the Moneypit into the Savings bond and cashing her out.

Or adjust your build plan to make less torque.
Did I mention already that it's a moneypit? From the AMS machined block I drove through a blizzard to pick up in Chicago, its been all about over building to survive, well, ME. Honestly though, it's becoming more of a quest to honor my buddy who drove with me through that blizzard and started this journey. He died this year so all my excuses have run out and it's time to finish that plan.

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Chewy4g63

Proven Member
88
23
Sep 8, 2021
Lakeside, Arizona
Honestly though, it's becoming more of a quest to honor my buddy who drove with me through that blizzard and started this journey. He died this year so all my excuses have run out and it's time to finish that plan.
Thats a good cause man. My build is going to shows to raise awareness for my son's rare medical conditions.
 

NWHTanK

Proven Member
1,388
270
Apr 23, 2011
Odessa, Missouri
You might have to contact them directly. If my old memory is correct they came out with these durring covid last year. Don't quote me on it but I think they make them in batches. Face book search should give you thier number. They are in Australia.
 

ist dwa

Proven Member
534
295
Nov 5, 2009
Centerville, Ohio
Face plating an OEM gear is a waste of $$$, it doesn't make the gear stronger which is the real problem. I promise you I could rip a face plated gear into pieces with no problem. It does help shifting.....but that isn't the real problem is it. IT"S POWER!

Dog box life or nothing.
 

twicks69

Supporting Vendor
4,020
1,224
Mar 12, 2004
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Correct, the only thing stronger because of the face plating is the 3/4 hub and slider. The rest is a speed shifting benefit vs the downfall of the fact that you are still on borrowed time with a stock gear, even if it has surface treatments.

As for Matthias' gears, I have used them before and it ended very prematurely in failure. Thousands wasted. Only to be replaced with a PPG, and no problems since.
 

jdxnc

Proven Member
336
245
Sep 15, 2009
Stanstead, Vermont
Correct, the only thing stronger because of the face plating is the 3/4 hub and slider. The rest is a speed shifting benefit vs the downfall of the fact that you are still on borrowed time with a stock gear, even if it has surface treatments.

As for Matthias' gears, I have used them before and it ended very prematurely in failure. Thousands wasted. Only to be replaced with a PPG, and no problems since.
I know Dan Hamilton has had Mattias' gears in his Talon for a few years, working well for him but I would agree, spend a bit more and go all the way to PPG....which I did.
 

iugrad92turbo

Supporting Member
12,869
807
May 22, 2007
Kalamazoo, Michigan
If it was all too easy. I went to tre and spoke to John. Grim reality for our transmissions. Keep what you have try to be like realistic about making power. Things break too easy, be prepared .
 

twicks69

Supporting Vendor
4,020
1,224
Mar 12, 2004
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
I ordered 10 sets, they are shipping out today.

I also had another batch of billet cross shafts made, 12 remaining of the batch are available.
Just an FYI, I was able to order a couple of sets of spider gears from NEAT in Australia with a tentative shipping date in early Feb.
 
Last edited:

bastarddsm

Proven Member
5,416
1,252
Aug 26, 2003
Mendota, Illinois
This looks promissing. Everyone has been so debbie downer for a long time on this. So far I've been able to get almost any part I've needed to build a trans from mitsu. Some shit takes a while, but it gets here. You have to have a good corpse to start with, but I can still get a "built" trans out the door. Can't always build the trans I want to build, but it doesn't matter much. I've gone just as fast on a pile I slapped together out of junk used up stuff, old fiber synchros, chipped gears, mismatch bearings/races, ect. Did not shift quite as good as a nice new fresh one, but it wasn't bad at all. Lasted just as long as any of the high $$ new parts, detailed, shot peened, bad ass build deals I had.

We all get the tunnel vision, there are places other than the US, and the 4g/w/f5m is a pretty common drivetrain, and lots of people play with them. Seems like most with more money and care than us. The need is there, the parts will show up. Quit crying and forge ahead, or get out of the way.

For example, look at the old ford top loader. There was a time when you could not get ANY new hard part for them, cores were going for big money. Now you can buy literally every part new. And it isn't like theres a stick shift ford on every street corner.

I know tim is worried about the 3/4 sliders, but I don't think thats a huge deal. In 10 years of building these for people, I've seen like 2 3/4hub/slider that was trashed - some wear yes, but very useable. Now the 1/2 hub slider that is a BIG deal. They are all trashed. That's the one we need to worry about right now today.

I think the next biggest need is transfercase couplers and a reasonable output shaft. I got a lot of tcases here, but they all have worn couplers. Almost every trans that comes in has a junk output shaft too.

Personally, I'm working on shift forks (since the magnus ones suck), and chromo shift fork ends. Going to try and do them so they will work with early or late select lever things. I might tinker with 3/4 synchros since mitsu ones are months out anymore. Eventually I'll make gears. I've talked to the MTM guy, and tried to get him to do a run of the dsm ones with a center diff body, so I could be a stocking dealer. but the language barrier kinda squashed that, and I don't think he really wants to do "production" type work. Anyway I think I can do them in my shop for a better price. We will see though.
 
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