evo 3 16g vs new fp 18g

[chavez408]

$718? You got a deal. Doesn't it go for $799 at fp

 

[Black_Bullet]

I'M STILL ALIVE GUYS!! . Sorry I haven't gotten back to you with any updates. I've been plenty busy lately and haven't really had a chance to mess around with the tune. I'll try to get around to it whenever I can and give you guys some more numbers. Chavez, I bought it new from FP for $718.** shipped. As far as knock and such, you can download the DSMlink software for free on their website and view the log, but I've tuned out almost all knock. I'm only seeing a spike of .7* of knock at 22PSI and around 11.1:1 A/F ratio.

Richen up the tune right were the spike is at. I want to see some dyno numbers by the way!

 

[gdmbat85]

Richen up the tune right were the spike is at. I want to see some dyno numbers by the way!

I'll make anyone a deal, show me a free dyno or pay for the dyno and I'll be more than happy to put it on there and let you dyno the piss outta it.

 

[gdmbat85]

$718? You got a deal. Doesn't it go for $799 at fp

Dang, that stinks. Guess they saw the huge demand they were getting on that turbo and decided to crank up the price like the PTE 5031RE. Here was my original invoice:

NTDSM18G6SL2 DSM 18G-6SL2 Turbo 1
$699.00 $699.00
Shipping: UPS
Ground: $18.69

Sales Tax: $0.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total: $717.69

 

[DoyoFCT]

at 799, i'd rather buy a 50trim, i think 699 was a better price. but i figured they would raise the cost.

 

[chavez408]

Dang so now they raised the price on it.
Might as well get it a 5031e

 

[thekellbeast]

DSM 18G-6SL2 Turbo $799.00 "enough airflow to hit 400whp"

Mitsubishi EVO III Big 16g Turbo $599.00

Precision T & E SCM5031 Turbocharger : Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99 : (460 HP) #17341 (With internal wastegate of course) $ 908.00

Precision T & E SCM5031R Ball Bearing Turbocharger : Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99 : (460 HP) #21092 (With internal wastegate of course) $ 1,158.99

But you're probably going to want to do it right with those 50 trims and go external, right? that's an o2 housing, wastegate, etc....

 

[dsm-onster]

Got to pay to play 'bolt-on'. It's still not too bad of a deal. It's proven to spool VERY quick (a bit sooner than a tdo6h 20g). If you want a garrett, then you're in store for WAY more costs than just the turbo (barring the PTE bolt-ons). Even w/ PTE turbos, you're looking at the added cost oil/water lines.

Still, it's typical for FP to raise the price.

 

[chavez408]

This fp 18g is capable of 400 whp? I need to witness this one but in the other hand this is why this thread is open! I was going to voulanteer to purchase this turbo around jan and give it a go but man It keeps getting more expensive. How's the top end on this thing

 

[chavez408]

ok here it is;
at fp the turbo goes for $799.99
and here Automoto Sports Copyright&copy AMS 2006
it is for $699.99 yay

 

[gdmbat85]

ok here it is;
at fp the turbo goes for $799.99
and here Automoto Sports Copyright&copy AMS 2006
it is for $699.99 yay

Excellent find. Bearing in mind that an evo3 is pretty much 700$ after all the porting work, I think that 700$ is a good price for this turbo. Being that you can get a SBR G50 for 680$ internally gated, I think that 800$ for this turbo was a bit overkill. This turbo is good, but not that good IMO. And I'm not sure how proper this turbo is for making 400whp. Looking at the compressor maps, This turbo is only good for around 37.5Lbs/min at 68* air temps in its most efficient region of 75% This turbo has an absolute max flow of 46.5Lbs/min of 68* air however thats way out of the efficient region at 60%. I calculated these numbers from the map numbers and should be well within +/- .5lbs. People have made 400whp on an evo3 and this compressor map looks far better than a big 16g turbo map so hey I guess anything is possible.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Ive decieded im going with a bb fp3052 or a 30R, and just buy a ext. w.g. cheap somewhere local. 800bucks ia still a friggin lot to pay for 16g like performance with just a little more top end especially since you can find evo316gs dirt cheap now locally...I am still interested in what this new 18g is capable of though as right now theres a lot of speculation

 

[chavez408]

Excellent find. Bearing in mind that an evo3 is pretty much 700$ after all the porting work, I think that 700$ is a good price for this turbo. Being that you can get a SBR G50 for 680$ internally gated, I think that 800$ for this turbo was a bit overkill. This turbo is good, but not that good IMO. And I'm not sure how proper this turbo is for making 400whp. Looking at the compressor maps, This turbo is only good for around 37.5Lbs/min at 68* air temps in its most efficient region of 75% This turbo has an absolute max flow of 46.5Lbs/min of 68* air however thats way out of the efficient region at 60%. I calculated these numbers from the map numbers and should be well within +/- .5lbs. People have made 400whp on an evo3 and this compressor map looks far better than a big 16g turbo map so hey I guess anything is possible.

so what are thought about the turbo as of now? i am sure there is more in it, or am i wrong? how much psi are you running on it as of now?

 

[JayRolla]

This fp 18g is capable of 400 whp? I need to witness this one but in the other hand this is why this thread is open! I was going to voulanteer to purchase this turbo around jan and give it a go but man It keeps getting more expensive. How's the top end on this thing

Its capable but I dont believe it can do it on 93 octane or less without some help, from either alternate fuel or injection of some sort.

 

[pboglio]

I would think a bigger compressor wheel and larger turbine wheel are worth $200 above and beyond the price of an EVO III 16g. I mean that is a trivial difference in terms of price, IMHO. Now whether the actual performance difference turns out to be significantly more remains to be seen.

I'd love to run an FP3052, but the turbo alone is $1399. External wastegate and 02 housing probably another $500-$600. To even push the turbo it'd probably require some internal engine mods, in my case even bigger fuel injectors, bigger fuel pump, etc. etc. I'd be up well over $3000 minimum to even push an FP3052 to its limits.

An FP 18G fills the price/performance gap quite nicely for $800. If you get bored turn around and sell it for a minimum of $500 and your only out $300. Would have preferred paying $699 but oh well. Geez, I think I paid $900 for my FP T28 back in 2001.

 

[chavez408]

The turbo is $699 well if you don't count the lines.. Another $200 I guess?

 

[gdmbat85]

so what are thought about the turbo as of now? i am sure there is more in it, or am i wrong? how much psi are you running on it as of now?

I don't really have anything to compare this turbo to, however what seems to be the issue is that this turbo is a really bad pump gas turbo. I'm running 1.5 Bars (21.75Psi) and that seems to be where the turbo runs real nice, however at those numbers, I run into knock and low spark advance numbers. If i turn it down, the power starts to really disappear quickly. Anything under 20PSI and you might as well keep the T-25. I have my low boost set at 15-16psi and it feels like an N/A car. Also, I hear that the evo3 is a very linear turbo as far as power band. Not so much with this turbo, it's lag lag lag and then a full onslaught of power. Again, I still have a lot of fixing to do as far as tuning and doing boost leak checks, however that is the consensus as of now. I also don't have cams, so the turbo doesn't really shine as I'm sure it will in the higher RPM's.

 

[JWoodley]

Holset FTW.

 

[pboglio]

I don't really have anything to compare this turbo to, however what seems to be the issue is that this turbo is a really bad pump gas turbo. I'm running 1.5 Bars (21.75Psi) and that seems to be where the turbo runs real nice, however at those numbers, I run into knock and low spark advance numbers. If i turn it down, the power starts to really disappear quickly. Anything under 20PSI and you might as well keep the T-25. I have my low boost set at 15-16psi and it feels like an N/A car. Also, I hear that the evo3 is a very linear turbo as far as power band. Not so much with this turbo, it's lag lag lag and then a full onslaught of power. Again, I still have a lot of fixing to do as far as tuning and doing boost leak checks, however that is the consensus as of now. I also don't have cams, so the turbo doesn't really shine as I'm sure it will in the higher RPM's.

IMHO, I don't think the turbo is to blame for your engine not being able to tolerate higher boost levels on pump gas. What causes knock are the following: improper a/f ratio, carbon deposits, improper spark plug heat range, high ignition timing advance, low fuel octane, high intake charge temps, high coolant temps, high boost pressure, high compression ratio, cylinder head design, high exhaust backpressure, etc. etc. You could also be getting false knock as well.

Your turbo is maybe contributing 2 out of the 11 items listed, 1 if you have a big efficient fmic. Even then, I doubt you have high turbine backpressure at 22 psi on a TD06SL2 wheel in a 7cm turbine housing on your current mods setup.

I personally wouldn't run anything over 23 psi pump gas on ANY turbo on a 2g for the above mentioned reasons. Guys running higher boost are using up every available safety margin just to say they are running pump gas, or are manipulating the other 9 variables that can contribute to knock. Your most likely knocking for other reasons.

I'd say there isn't a thing wrong with your turbo. Nothing a couple of cans of seafoam, a boost leak check, and some tuning seat time couldn't fix.

 

[JayRolla]

IMHO, I don't think the turbo is to blame for your engine not being able to tolerate higher boost levels on pump gas. What causes knock are the following: improper a/f ratio, carbon deposits, improper spark plug heat range, high ignition timing advance, low fuel octane, high intake charge temps, high coolant temps, high boost pressure, high compression ratio, cylinder head design, high exhaust backpressure, etc. etc. You could also be getting false knock as well.

Your turbo is maybe contributing 2 out of the 11 items listed, 1 if you have a big efficient fmic. Even then, I doubt you have high turbine backpressure at 22 psi on a TD06SL2 wheel in a 7cm turbine housing on your current mods setup.

I personally wouldn't run anything over 23 psi pump gas on ANY turbo on a 2g for the above mentioned reasons. Guys running higher boost are using up every available safety margin just to say they are running pump gas, or are manipulating the other 9 variables that can contribute to knock. Your most likely knocking for other reasons.

I'd say there isn't a thing wrong with your turbo. Nothing a couple of cans of seafoam, a boost leak check, and some tuning seat time couldn't fix.

I would have to disagree. Any turbo with that small of housings are going to have detonation problems. The turbo just heats the air up way to much. On a stock timing map on a 1g the 16g cant get more than 17-20psi if you are lucky. Now stuff a larger turbine in there and its going to get worse.

Just an opinion I would like to through out. My brother is running a 16g on e85. He was thinking of going up to a 50 trim for a good price but after being in a car with the 50 trim it was not worth the little power gain and the amount of spool you lose. If the 18g shows longer spool I dont think the 20-40 extra cfm is worth it.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I would have to disagree. Any turbo with that small of housings are going to have detonation problems. The turbo just heats the air up way to much. On a stock timing map on a 1g the 16g cant get more than 17-20psi if you are lucky. Now stuff a larger turbine in there and its going to get worse.

Just an opinion I would like to through out. My brother is running a 16g on e85. He was thinking of going up to a 50 trim for a good price but after being in a car with the 50 trim it was not worth the little power gain and the amount of spool you lose. If the 18g shows longer spool I dont think the 20-40 extra cfm is worth it.

Also depends on which 50trim variant were talking about.
But funny you say that because the 50 trim dsms ive ridden in didnt impress me, but i figure some had to do with their older style 50trims and some with the fact that there cars couldve been far from tuned in aggressively.
Felt way more linear than a 16g but didnt feel as fun or hard hitting, it just pulled.
Wasnt a big difference on buttdyno. So for your view point, i can see where you question the 18g.
My opinion is, for ppl looking for 400+ whp dont buy this turbo even if it is capable of making it. I think this is the perfect turbo for a car coming FROM a stock turbo that wouldve been going to an evo3, this 18g should be the new first upgrade snail instead of 16g...

 

[pboglio]

I would have to disagree. Any turbo with that small of housings are going to have detonation problems. The turbo just heats the air up way to much. On a stock timing map on a 1g the 16g cant get more than 17-20psi if you are lucky. Now stuff a larger turbine in there and its going to get worse.

Just an opinion I would like to through out. My brother is running a 16g on e85. He was thinking of going up to a 50 trim for a good price but after being in a car with the 50 trim it was not worth the little power gain and the amount of spool you lose. If the 18g shows longer spool I dont think the 20-40 extra cfm is worth it.

I don't know about this, a 7cm housing isn't "that" small. And the turbine wheel itself is midway between a TD05H and a TD06. I run a restrictive turbine housing/wheel on my T28, thats has some serious exhaust backpressure.

It usually doesn't affect knock so much until you upgrade to a cam setup that has some overlap, like my HKS 264's, then from my experience you start to see a lot more knock from the backpressure. Before cams I actually ran 25 psi on pump gas on my tiny T28 on a 70-80*F day, a little knock to be sure but only a couple degrees pulled back. Car loved it and made big torque. Once I went to cams the car "hated" big boost and knocks at anything over 21 psi on pump, though in winter it maybe can run up to 22 psi.

Everything is so dependant on the "system" tune, his knock is hardly anything from his last data log, though its impossible to tell how bad it could get cause the timing is still low.

Whats cracking me up is that from what I'm reading, guys are expecting big power numbers from pump gas levels of boost, say 21-22 psi. It don't work that way, you need big boost to see the bigger airflow numbers that make the 50 trims or whatever standout. Your average 2.0L is only going to flow 40 lb/min at 6500 rpm on 20-21 psi. You want another 50 h.p. its going to mean bumping the boost up to 25 psi or building the motor to produce a power peak higher up in the rpm band.

This is why most average cars don't show a major difference in power between turbos at your average 20 psi daily boost setting. Crank that 18g up to 25-27 psi, dump in some high octane, jack the timing up, and add cams, then you'll start seeing a low-mid 400 h.p. run.

I wouldn't go blaming the turbo if the above mentioned things aren't done, I'd blame my own conservative tuning and lack of supporting mods.

 

[chavez408]

What if you run meth?

 

[JayRolla]

What if you run meth?

Exactly. Im running a evo16g and pump gas tunes are freakin horrible. I can barely tune the knock out on my car because I'm running 2g pistons on a 1g timing map. The 16g really opens up if you run meth, race fuel or e85.

My brother is running e85 and he can get away with 26psi and 28* timing on his evo16g. I dont have the budget for the supporting mods to run e85 so meth is the way im going.

 

[RipperXX]

Exactly. Im running a evo16g and pump gas tunes are freakin horrible. I can barely tune the knock out on my car because I'm running 2g pistons on a 1g timing map. The 16g really opens up if you run meth, race fuel or e85.

My brother is running e85 and he can get away with 26psi and 28* timing on his evo16g. I dont have the budget for the supporting mods to run e85 so meth is the way im going.

I was thinking about putting higher compression pistons in my 1g/6bolt which is equipped with DSMLink, but anyway do 8.5:1 compressions pistons make that much of a difference? I was thinking about 8.8:1 with my Evo III turbo setup. But depending on what you have to say I may just keep the stock compression ratio.

In short is it better to have 7.8:1 compression and more timing, or less timing and 8.5/8.8:1 compression?