evo 3 16g vs new fp 18g

[dsm-onster]

My car is close on pump gas. It weighs ~3400 race weight with driver, it's a street car w/ AC, power steering, cruise, etc. It's AWD so I haven't had it on the dyno but the DSM horsepower calculator puts me at the following on pump gas:

Using the ET method, I come up with 352 horsepower
Using the Speed method, I come up with 373 horsepower

On race gas it gives me these numbers:

Using the ET method, I come up with 420 horsepower
Using the Speed method, I come up with 436 horsepower

It's still a 2.0L. I was running ~18psi on pump gas (12.4 @ 112) and ~25psi on race gas (11.7 @ 118). Those times were ran before I added the JMF SMIM, FP Race Exhaust Manifold and the ARC-2 ignition w/ COP. I plan on getting to the track again a week from today to try and get some better numbers.

Nothing special to my setup, in fact it's quite old school: VPC/SAFC/TMO stage 3 ECU no nitrous. All of the mods can be seen in the link to my car above (minus the good driver mod ).

Also my Evo 16g came ported and clipped from FP. I get full spool at 3500 rpms on my 16g so 3800rpms for the 18g doesn't seem too bad as it's pre-ported and I think I read clipped already?

If anyone wants to buy my 16g for $500 (Cost me almost $800 shipped to my door: ported, clipped, external on the O2 housing - less than 3k miles on it) I'll buy and 18g and do a comparison without changine anything else on my car

Good job on your numbers. Airflow numbers are what's important here.

This 18g compressor has a physically larger inducer w/ identical dimensions otherwise (same blade shape, exducer, compressor cover). This 18g turbine is what is in question. Is it a significant upgrade to the td05h turbine?

Are you questioning the potental for more flow swapping to a larger turbine? or larger compressor? It's obvious that any td06 turbine will exhibit a higher rate of exhaust gas evacation. I wouldn't bother w/ these "guarantees". Most cannot reach your et or MPH w/ 3400 lbs (which I debate) w/ any form of 16g. So you seem to be special . Thus, your fp18g will perform equally special. Logging volume flow (not massflow) from an accurate MAF is what's important here (tell us the altitude and air temp if you want): Can this 18g move more volume than an evo3 16g at the same boost?

The turbine for the 18g is what seams superior. This is a revised td06 wheel. So you read wrong on a 'clipped turbine'. Your new manifolds have been proven to yield no better times w/ an evo3 turbine (to rephrase: 'unlikely for the most of us').

Swapping will definately yield a good comparison on the spool differences!

 

[LaserAWD]

Good job on your numbers. Airflow numbers are what's important here.

I have no way to get airflow numbers that I know of on my pocket logger. I also have a VPC so again the numbers would probably be off if I could.

Are you questioning the potental for more flow swapping to a larger turbine? or larger compressor? It's obvious that any td06 turbine will exhibit a higher rate of exhaust gas evacation. I wouldn't bother w/ these "guarantees".

I'm not questioning anything about the turbo. FP built me a "sleeper 14b" way back around 2001 that was an 18g wheel in a machined 14b housing with a td05 wheel with a big 'ol clip on it. I ran an 11.8 on it with stock cams, stock head, balance shafts, stock 1g compression, etc. I have many more mods than that now and only managed an 11.7 on the 16g so I'm confident I'll see better numbers with the 18g, between 5 and 10% more power especially in the high rpms where the 16g would fall off. The 18g should hold 25+ psi all the way to my shift points.

And I have no idea what "guarantees" you're talking about? Or maybe that wasn't directed at me.

Most cannot reach your et or MPH w/ 3400 lbs (which I debate) w/ any form of 16g. So you seem to be special . Thus, your fp18g will perform equally special. Logging volume flow (not massflow) from an accurate MAF is what's important here (tell us the altitude and air temp if you want): Can this 18g move more volume than an evo3 16g at the same boost?

It just takes the right combination of parts to make a car work. I've been working on these things since 1998 or so and have gone through my fair share of trial and error. So on this latest build I bought what I knew worked well together and the results show. I know many people who've got 11's on an Evo 16g in street cars, hell 2g's even.

I ran an 11.4 @ 120 back in 2001 on a 20g with stock cams, intake, head, 7.8:1 compression, 550s etc on a VPC/SAFC/TMO setup, in my old Laser that weighed 3370lbs but I guess that was special too.

The car might not be a full 3400lbs with me in it but it's gotta be damn close. I had a '92 4/6 bolt Laser from 1998-2002 and it weighed 3370, on scales at a drag strip, with me and a 1/4 tank of gas. I weighed ~165lbs then, I weighed ~190lbs during my current trips to the drag strip, 25lbs more just on me.

Also that old Laser had no sunroof and no abs and I a race seat and harness for the driver and had removed the stock seatbelt motors and such. My "new" Laser had abs which I removed but still has the rear sensors, some wiring, etc and it also has a sunroof and everyone knows glass is heavy. So it might not be a full 3400lbs but I bet it's between 3300 and 3400 race weight with me in it and my guess would be to the higher side.

So with 3300 lbs and the same times I get these numbers on race gas:

Using the ET method, I come up with 407 horsepower
Using the Speed method, I come up with 423 horsepower

Still over 400 to the wheels.

And on pump with 3300lbs I get this:

Using the ET method, I come up with 326 horsepower
Using the Speed method, I come up with 362 horsepower

I'd believe the speed method more than the ET as I wasn't speed shifting those runs..

I ran my current 16g times here: www.mpdragway.com I believe it's somewhere between 600 and 1000 ft above sealevel. Nothing too high or low to try and adjust any numbers. The race gas 11.7 was at about 85* F in the middle of the day. The 12.6 @ 112 on pump was on a cooler night, I'd guess upper 60's.

The turbine for the 18g is what seams superior. This is a revised td06 wheel. So you read wrong on a 'clipped turbine'.

That's why I said I thought I read, so no clip, no big deal. The wheel flows more so there's probably no need.

Your new manifolds have been proven to yield no better times w/ an evo3 turbine (to rephrase: 'unlikely for the most of us').

Swapping will definately yield a good comparison on the spool differences!

I haven't made or manufactured a manifold so I'm not sure who you're referring I have noticed better pull on the top end with the FP Race Manifold. Again I can't log airflow but I installed the manifold and went out with the same tune and above 6k or so my wideband was about .5 leaner than it was before the swap.

I'm still thinking I'll try an 18g, if I do I'll post up with some new numbers. It could be a big disappointment or I could go out and run some mid to low 11's. We'll just have to wait and see

 

[dsm-onster]

I have no way to get airflow numbers that I know of on my pocket logger. I also have a VPC so again the numbers would probably be off if I could.



I'm not questioning anything about the turbo. FP built me a "sleeper 14b" way back around 2001 that was an 18g wheel in a machined 14b housing with a td05 wheel with a big 'ol clip on it. I ran an 11.8 on it with stock cams, stock head, balance shafts, stock 1g compression, etc. I have many more mods than that now and only managed an 11.7 on the 16g so I'm confident I'll see better numbers with the 18g, between 5 and 10% more power especially in the high rpms where the 16g would fall off. The 18g should hold 25+ psi all the way to my shift points.

And I have no idea what "guarantees" you're talking about? Or maybe that wasn't directed at me.



It just takes the right combination of parts to make a car work. I've been working on these things since 1998 or so and have gone through my fair share of trial and error. So on this latest build I bought what I knew worked well together and the results show. I know many people who've got 11's on an Evo 16g in street cars, hell 2g's even.

I ran an 11.4 @ 120 back in 2001 on a 20g with stock cams, intake, head, 7.8:1 compression, 550s etc on a VPC/SAFC/TMO setup, in my old Laser that weighed 3370lbs but I guess that was special too.

The car might not be a full 3400lbs with me in it but it's gotta be damn close. I had a '92 4/6 bolt Laser from 1998-2002 and it weighed 3370, on scales at a drag strip, with me and a 1/4 tank of gas. I weighed ~165lbs then, I weighed ~190lbs during my current trips to the drag strip, 25lbs more just on me.

Also that old Laser had no sunroof and no abs and I a race seat and harness for the driver and had removed the stock seatbelt motors and such. My "new" Laser had abs which I removed but still has the rear sensors, some wiring, etc and it also has a sunroof and everyone knows glass is heavy. So it might not be a full 3400lbs but I bet it's between 3300 and 3400 race weight with me in it and my guess would be to the higher side.

So with 3300 lbs and the same times I get these numbers on race gas:

Using the ET method, I come up with 407 horsepower
Using the Speed method, I come up with 423 horsepower

Still over 400 to the wheels.

And on pump with 3300lbs I get this:

Using the ET method, I come up with 326 horsepower
Using the Speed method, I come up with 362 horsepower

I'd believe the speed method more than the ET as I wasn't speed shifting those runs..

I ran my current 16g times here: www.mpdragway.com I believe it's somewhere between 600 and 1000 ft above sealevel. Nothing too high or low to try and adjust any numbers. The race gas 11.7 was at about 85* F in the middle of the day. The 12.6 @ 112 on pump was on a cooler night, I'd guess upper 60's.



That's why I said I thought I read, so no clip, no big deal. The wheel flows more so there's probably no need.



I haven't made or manufactured a manifold so I'm not sure who you're referring I have noticed better pull on the top end with the FP Race Manifold. Again I can't log airflow but I installed the manifold and went out with the same tune and above 6k or so my wideband was about .5 leaner than it was before the swap.

I'm still thinking I'll try an 18g, if I do I'll post up with some new numbers. It could be a big disappointment or I could go out and run some mid to low 11's. We'll just have to wait and see

I think you'll get great results. . . Is all I'm saying . I'm getting one of these little turbos too.

 

[gdmbat85]

Ok so I have a dsmlink log of a 3rd gear pull from tonight. I still have a knock issue that I need to fix, however here's what I've come up with. I'm seeing full boost (21-24Psi) by 3600-3700RPM's on my current setup. I've also seen a max of 36.3lbs/min of airflow. If anyone knows how I can post up the .dat file of the log, let me know so I can post it up if anyone wants to see it, or I can just send it to you.

 

[pboglio]

Ok so I have a dsmlink log of a 3rd gear pull from tonight. I still have a knock issue that I need to fix, however here's what I've come up with. I'm seeing full boost (21-24Psi) by 3600-3700RPM's on my current setup. I've also seen a max of 36.3lbs/min of airflow. If anyone knows how I can post up the .dat file of the log, let me know so I can post it up if anyone wants to see it, or I can just send it to you.

For a SMIC, thats not a bad airflow number. Cams and an FMIC would yield about another 4 lb/min no sweat.

 

[dsm-onster]

For a SMIC, thats not a bad airflow number. Cams and an FMIC would yield about another 4 lb/min no sweat.

Yea, those are fantastic numbers for the setup you are running. The 'high flow' for the 'low boost' suggests a great flowing turbine wheel. The spool seams really quick for turbines that can flow as well w/ a similar setup.

To post a .dat file simply go to the reply screen and scroll down to "Attach Files" subheading. Click on the "upload/edit photos" button (.dat files are acceptable).

 

[gdmbat85]

Yea, those are fantastic numbers for the setup you are running. The 'high flow' for the 'low boost' suggests a great flowing turbine wheel. The spool seams really quick for turbines that can flow as well w/ a similar setup.

To post a .dat file simply go to the reply screen and scroll down to "Attach Files" subheading. Click on the "upload/edit photos" button (.dat files are acceptable).

AHH very good. Thought it was only picture extentions that are acceptable. With that said, here's the log of the pull. It's the last pull I believe towards the end.

 

[dsm-onster]

AHH very good. Thought it was only picture extentions that are acceptable. With that said, here's the log of the pull. It's the last pull I believe towards the end.

Holly he!! you have alot of knock retard!!!!! 6 degrees of knock retard equals around 21 counts of knock.

 

[Black_Bullet]

For a SMIC, thats not a bad airflow number. Cams and an FMIC would yield about another 4 lb/min no sweat.

Yea I agree...

Holly he!! you have alot of knock retard!!!!! 6 degrees of knock retard equals around 21 counts of knock.

So considering his current air flow and this type of timing retard hes getting, and the fact he doesnt even have fmic or cams yet put it all together and in my opinion this turbo could easy net a good 350whp on pump gas with good tuning and supporting mods pushing around 23-24psi. And with spool right under 3700.... Not too shabby at all... This should be the new turbo upgrade for those still running stock turbos whom wouldve went evo3.

I think a set of fp1s and, fp race manifold with a properly ported cyclone intake manifold, dsmlink tuning and a large core fmic would be an awsome very torquey hard hitting set up for this turbo.


Ps. for those running this turbo try to log how far the power band carries into the higher rpms...
Like for instance my 16g at 21-22 lbs starts dropping on boost at around 6400rpms , where does this new 18g hold its water till? If it can hold set full boost any significant amount of time longer then id say it could have much better trap speeds and top end over a maxed out evo3 set up...

 

[pboglio]

The one thing I like about the 18g is the TD06sl wheel. This is the first time we actually get an option that really addresses the back pressure problem without completely nuking the boost response of the turbo, along with a high flowing compressor section.

I've pretty much hit a wall with my restrictive T28 turbine section. I've considered buying the EVOIII 16g but guys who run it fast seem to need to run it at 28-30 psi. This range is way way out of my comfort zone and plus I'd have to spend megabucks replacing my 30" Hg-25 psi boost gauge I like to run 100 octane unleaded on the street (weekend car) so 23-25 psi is a very comfortable range for me and I'd be happy if it laid down 400-420 at the crank in this psi range.

Regarding the datalogs, yep, get the FMIC on already and save up for cams That and bumping up the timing and tuning should make that 18g pull a lot harder, spoolup looks awesome though. Here's a DSMLink log of one of my runs with the above mentioned mods/timing etc., makes a big difference.

 

[gdmbat85]

Your request is my command, . I'm actually picking up a greddy FMIC tomorrow (tuesday) night. I'll try to get it installed ASAP and get another log up for you guys.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Your request is my command, . I'm actually picking up a greddy FMIC tomorrow (tuesday) night. I'll try to get it installed ASAP and get another log up for you guys.

just make sure you put on your seat belt

 

[gdmbat85]

just make sure you put on your seat belt

Hahaha thanks for the advice.

 

[chavez408]

Not to shabyy, Any more pictures of the turbo install? any luck with the fmi

 

[gdmbat85]

Not to shabyy, Any more pictures of the turbo install? any luck with the fmi

Yea, I have some more pics of the actual install process (incomplete). I started installing the FMIC today. It's completely installed, I just have to finish mounting an external oil cooler and replace the front end. I'll update the photobucket of pictures when I'm done installing the FMIC tomorrow.

 

[gdmbat85]

Ok guys, the FMIC install is complete. Here's a link with the photos of the FMIC install. http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z58/gdmbat85/FMIC%20install/ I still haven't updated the turbo install pics. I'll do that tomorrow, along with a log. First impression after running it was just wow. I actually flew past my street the first time cause there was no way I was stopping in time. Where I would have normally gotten upto about 60 I can now get upto 80. With the childs play done and outta the way I took it onto the highway. Merging from one highway onto another I punched it and was actually able to spin the tires in 3rd gear with 2 girls in the car. It was so hard to believe that I'm actually worried that it might have been my new clutch slipping. And before anyone says this, I couldn't hear for tire spin between the engine, music, and girls talking. All I know was that my RPM's shot through the roof and came back down. Anyways, tomorrow is when the numbers come and hopefully they're good.

 

[gdmbat85]

Ok, here's a log of a run. The first pull starts at 180sec and the second pull starts at 265sec. Airflow has gone up to 37.4lbs/min. Timing has also gone up a lot. The rest you guys can tell from the log. Again this is a DSMLink log.

 

[pboglio]

Getting there. +1.3 lb/min for just slapping on an FMIC is respectable. Gotta get cams now, should get you right around to the 40 lb/min mark. Still a lot of power left in upping the timing though, your still only at 14*. I see another 30 h.p. in timing alone.

What kind of boost are you running? I'm curious to see the airflow numbers when you kick the boost up around 25 psi. Looks good though, right on track

 

[gdmbat85]

Getting there. +1.3 lb/min for just slapping on an FMIC is respectable. Gotta get cams now, should get you right around to the 40 lb/min mark. Still a lot of power left in upping the timing though, your still only at 14*. I see another 30 h.p. in timing alone.

What kind of boost are you running? I'm curious to see the airflow numbers when you kick the boost up around 25 psi. Looks good though, right on track

Acutally, the boostest numbers are fairly accurate. I'm running around 22psi +/-1psi. I don't give a sh*t, I'll crank it upto 25psi tomorrow and see how it runs. I might also try lowering it a psi or 2 and cranking up the timing. I really didn't get a chance to mess with the tune yet so I'll do that and hopefully have some good logs to post up. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[eclipseGSTud]

Any updates?

 

[Black_Bullet]

Acutally, the boostest numbers are fairly accurate. I'm running around 22psi +/-1psi. I don't give a sh*t, I'll crank it upto 25psi tomorrow and see how it runs. I might also try lowering it a psi or 2 and cranking up the timing. I really didn't get a chance to mess with the tune yet so I'll do that and hopefully have some good logs to post up. I'll keep you guys posted.

Are you knocking? If not richen your air fuel ratio, then add some timing till you reach the thresh hold of were it begins to knock. A 10.9/ 11.1 air fuel ratio is plenty rich, dont go richer than that, and you can make more power by not going any leaner than that also and just adding timing/boost... But i wouldnt up the boost, 22psi is actually enough for a street tune thats only on pump gas so dont feel like youd be inadequate by not pumping more psi, at this point you need to tune between timing and air fuel...
I agree that you probably still have another 30hp available out of this set up with timing tuning alone...
Now if you run meth or race gas thats a different story, id then suggest you try something like 25psi, 20degs of timing for beginners ... !!!!

 

[chavez408]

What's the word bro? Is it still alive haha
How much you get the turbo for again?

 

[Black_Bullet]

What's the word bro? Is it still alive haha
How much you get the turbo for again?

maybe he forgot to put on his seat belt like i told him ...

 

[chavez408]

Haha yeah

 

[gdmbat85]

I'M STILL ALIVE GUYS!! . Sorry I haven't gotten back to you with any updates. I've been plenty busy lately and haven't really had a chance to mess around with the tune. I'll try to get around to it whenever I can and give you guys some more numbers. Chavez, I bought it new from FP for $718.** shipped. As far as knock and such, you can download the DSMlink software for free on their website and view the log, but I've tuned out almost all knock. I'm only seeing a spike of .7* of knock at 22PSI and around 11.1:1 A/F ratio.