evo 3 16g vs new fp 18g

[dsm-onster]

Boosted, thanks for decoding that. But you know, easier said than done man..... I suppose this is an appropiate response.

Lifting your foot defeats the purpose of accelerating though....

I don't want to get this off topic, so I'll keep my personal turbo needs out of this topic as much as possible and continue to keep reading up on this new 18g from FP.

I've been waiting a long time for a turbo of this particular nature to come out, so I have high expectations.

Not really. Having no traction prevents accelerating. You canot get but so much acceleration from 0-60 w/ your car FWD AWD whatever. For FWD it is a smaller unit of acceleration. If you overcome that number you do more than NOT accelerate quicker . . . You slow down!

I think this subject is relevant to purchasing an 18G (the theme of this thread) because many of us have FWDs and are concerned abotu the characteristics of this turbo vs. an evo3 16g or any turbo that has the same potential as these two turbos.

I feel that transient response is worth paying attention to accelerating in first gear. If you ahve a turbo that can recover boost quicker in 3rd than otherwise, you have a better chance of gaining back the time you lost in your 60ft. This turbo *looks* to do that. . . Only further testing and experience will tell the truth.

Bottem line (from my experience), more hp is neccesary to beat one w/ better off the line traction, not slower spool or higher power band. If all other characteristics can remain the same (spool, transient response, power band) then you have a better chance of catching a guy modded exactly the same as you otherwise. The higher the HP you have the less you need transient response and an early powerband (as long as you rsetup can support such hp levels for a long time in the rev range).

 

[ryboj]

dsm-onster.... thanks for taking the time to properly explain. I understand your points completely and they make a lot of sense. My comment of: Lifting your foot defeats the purpose of accelerating though..." was purely sarcastic in nature. I do understand that taking my foot off the gas to modulate throttle control is crucial to actually accelerating given my constraints, but I guess I've always been spoiled in the fact I have great traction now in stock form, so I'm not happy about losing it when I go modified. It's just the way it is not having AWD, I'll have to get used to it.

Sounds like this turbo still might be appropiate for me, I would just need to keep in mind throttle control off the start and lean to ease or lay into it, rather than hammer it.

I'm just nervous about any turbo behaving like my T-25, which spools at idle, for the sake of the argument, with TONS more power. I would have massive traction issues.

Always learning here.... I've been a long time member, but not a big poster, just a big reader on the site, but this new FP18g caught my immediate attention, hence all the posting.

 

[dsm-onster]

dsm-onster.... thanks for taking the time to properly explain. I understand your points completely and they make a lot of sense. My comment of: Lifting your foot defeats the purpose of accelerating though..." was purely sarcastic in nature. I do understand that taking my foot off the gas to modulate throttle control is crucial to actually accelerating given my constraints, but I guess I've always been spoiled in the fact I have great traction now in stock form, so I'm not happy about losing it when I go modified. It's just the way it is not having AWD, I'll have to get used to it.

Sounds like this turbo still might be appropiate for me, I would just need to keep in mind throttle control off the start and lean to ease or lay into it, rather than hammer it.

I'm just nervous about any turbo behaving like my T-28, which spools at idle, for the sake of the argument, with TONS more power. I would have massive traction issues.

Always learning here.... I've been a long time member, but not a big poster, just a big reader on the site, but this new FP18g caught my immediate attention, hence all the posting.

Keep your mind open. Perhaps the 18g is not your best choice. It could be. What are your goals and what have other FWD guys needed to reach that goal? That should head your research. The 50-trim has been proven to be very streetable but still has plenty of transient response and enough kick for a 49 lb/min log. Pump gas and streetability go hand in hand. Who wants a car that is fun as hell on the street but cannot put pump fuel in it on a regular basis!?? The 50-trim fits that bill. And has enough to *catch* most any evo3 16g AWD guy on this forum.

Glad to see another FWD guy wanting a streetable car w/ semi-AWD times .

 

[ryboj]

Keep your mind open. Perhaps the 18g is not your best choice. It could be. What are your goals and what have other FWD guys needed to reach that goal? That should head your research. The 50-trim has been proven to be very streetable but still has plenty of transient response and enough kick for a 49 lb/min log. Pump gas and streetability go hand in hand. Who wants a car that is fun as hell on the street but cannot put pump fuel in it on a regular basis!?? The 50-trim fits that bill. And has enough to *catch* most any evo3 16g AWD guy on this forum.

Glad to see another FWD guy wanting a streetable car w/ semi-AWD times .

What you say still makes a lot of sense and is sentiment of what I've read on this site over the years. That is a 50 trim "like" turbo is the pump of choice so to speak and is quite streetable.

I'm breaking my rule on this thread and discussing my own car/needs, I'm sorry.

I'm honestly not the best driver out there, but I'm not crap either, and I'm also no drag racer at the strip. I understand these cars for the most part having owned mine for many years and having a brother that had a built '92 AWD TSi years back when 16gs were considered cool to have, well they still are, they're now called Evo 3's... AS WE ALL KNOW!

For me, I'm just a guy who loves my DSM that would like to get a bigger grin when I lay into into it. Too much to ask for?

Goals are simple but lofty.

-High 11's wish, low 12's more realistic since FWD (not going to the drags at all, this is just an idea of what range I want to be in, assuming I would drag it)
-Crappy CA gas I must use
-350-400whp (gives me a chance to start off a little melow then turn it up once the car gets where it needs to be) RELIABLY on a stock 7bolt(for now), and not stressing the turbo (20-23psi range).
-Turbo design/reliability must be awesome (don't want a turbo I have to replace every 10k miles). The HX-35 sounds amazing, but a few more nuts and bolts during install along with a few caveats and I'd also be running it a little bit outside its efficiency range, which is in the upper PSI range.
-Must be very streetable, but also have a fun mid-top end for the fun freeway pulls.
-Stock cams (for now)
-Prefer to be internally gated to keep cost down, along with passing smog with ease visually.
-CA Smog compliant

I've been in search of the ultimate Turbo setup for a few years, that is why I'm still stock. (money too). The FP Green is one I always cross paths with but am not sure I like paying that higher premium, along with running it internally gated.

Well, I'll shut up now and let the 18g keep taking for itself here.

I like the price/power of this 18g unit by the way, quite appealing.

 

[chavez408]

Who mention that we are only going to see a 15% difference of power compare to a evo3? Dont you guys think that is very little since a brand new evo3 goes for $570 shipped compare to the 18g $720 shipped?
rybol - cali 91/93oct + meth = kickass!

 

[DoyoFCT]

UMMMM, 2g n/t water pipe is from a 420a and wont work. Neither will a 1g water pipe. Maybe he is lucky enough to know someone in Europe that can get their hands on a 2g 4g63 n/t waterpipe but it is unlikely.

I thought he had a 1g, but yea, you can plug the block return, and the thermostat housing feed on a 2g, or loop them as stated. but since this turbo is water cooled anyways looping/block off won't matter


I keep hearing people say the new Turbine wheel is made by MHI, or was it produced by a "mystery knock off company"

 

[92awddsm]

I thought he had a 1g, but yea, you can plug the block return, and the thermostat housing feed on a 2g, or loop them as stated. but since this turbo is water cooled anyways looping/block off won't matter


I keep hearing people say the new Turbine wheel is made by MHI, or was it produced by a "mystery knock off company"

Its a td06 mhi wheel. The td06 18g has been around for quite some time, just now hitting the dsm market. I was standard on some diesel engines. Dont know exact models but I have seen them in the past.

 

[dsm-onster]

Who mention that we are only going to see a 15% difference of power compare to a evo3? Dont you guys think that is very little since a brand new evo3 goes for $570 shipped compare to the 18g $720 shipped?
rybol - cali 91/93oct + meth = kickass!

No, 15% is minimum difference likely to be seen considering the conservative tune and boost of the dyno sheet provided by AMS. The 18g compressor is significantly more efficient than an evo3 16g at 22+ psi. This 18g turbine flows more than the evo3 16g turbine. By how much will determine the potential of this turbo. There is no dyno proof that this turbo outflows an evo3 16g at all. That is what we are here for. If it flows more than an evo3 16g, then it will cost more to buy an evo3 16g and modify it to flow enough to match an 18g.

It is still cheaper than a 20G and according to FP it flows more. We're going in circles. . .

 

[dsm-onster]

Its a td06 mhi wheel. The td06 18g has been around for quite some time, just now hitting the dsm market. I was standard on some diesel engines. Dont know exact models but I have seen them in the past.

The td06 or the td06sl? I've wondered about this, too.

 

[DoyoFCT]

Its a td06 mhi wheel. The td06 18g has been around for quite some time, just now hitting the dsm market. I was standard on some diesel engines. Dont know exact models but I have seen them in the past.

this is not a regular TD06 wheel, that's on the FP18g... i do not believe its an MHI wheel. but i wasn't 100% on that, i just remember reading a post in the main introduction thread stating this, but i think mods deleted it.

The td06 or the td06sl? I've wondered about this, too.

thats what i was asking. the TD06SL


But im sure this is why FP is not charging 1k+ for this turbo because it obviously uses a generic/copy compressor cover, and turbine housing, with a MHI CHRA/Comp wheel, and i believe a mystery company Turbine wheel. im sure it meets FP's standards and has been tested extensively. I highly doubt they would release a product that would explode like some of those generic turbos have done hah.

 

[chavez408]

any other dyno runs

 

[eclipseGSTud]

Any new updates?

 

[gdmbat85]

I'm going to be getting either the Evo 3 or this 18G in the next few days. Still trying to decide. I fully believe that this 18G can outpower the evo3, however the real question is: is that extra power worth the loss in reliability? Not that I don't have faith in FP, but until I can see turbos running over 100k miles no problem, I will always consider every turbo inferior to a MHI turbo as far as reliability. "While all FP turbochargers are built in our Dallas Texas plant, castings may have various countries of origin other than the US. Some castings are made in Japan, Tiawan, and Canada. " That statement doesn't exactly make me feel anymore comfortable about the 18G either. The way I see it, the Evo3 and the 18G are the same exact price, unless you don't plan on porting the evo3, at which point it's got nothing against the 18G which comes cast ported. Guess I'm going to have to flip a coin for this one....

 

[Black_Bullet]

I'm going to be getting either the Evo 3 or this 18G in the next few days. Still trying to decide. I fully believe that this 18G can outpower the evo3, however the real question is: is that extra power worth the loss in reliability? Not that I don't have faith in FP, but until I can see turbos running over 100k miles no problem, I will always consider every turbo inferior to a MHI turbo as far as reliability. "While all FP turbochargers are built in our Dallas Texas plant, castings may have various countries of origin other than the US. Some castings are made in Japan, Tiawan, and Canada. " That statement doesn't exactly make me feel anymore comfortable about the 18G either. The way I see it, the Evo3 and the 18G are the same exact price, unless you don't plan on porting the evo3, at which point it's got nothing against the 18G which comes cast ported. Guess I'm going to have to flip a coin for this one....

It could last longer for the hardcore tuners considering its way more efficient then a 16g youd not likely be taking the thing up as high in boost trying to eck out more power as you would do for a 16g since this will meet those type of airflow requirments at a lower psi... I dont see why 40-50 thousand miles of hard 20+ psi boosting would be a problem for this turbo unless theres oil flow problems or user error but maybe im wrong..

 

[keltalon]

You can easily get to 380whp with a 16g.

Please send me a link where 380 was easily made without nitrous. I ask because i have not seen one as of yet

 

[keltalon]

I wouldn't "upgrade" from a 16g to an 18g. They're pretty damn near the same turbo. If I had a tdo5h 16g car, I would upgrade to a tdo6 20g. I'm running a tdo5h 18g right now, and I'll probably upgrade to an HX40. If you're gonna upgrade, make sure you're gaining enough performance to warrant the price. I'm sure the FP18g is going to be a great turbo, and I wish it was available when I got my 18g - but it's gonna face the same problem that the 18g always has. It's in the middle step of the 16g and 20g, that everyone usually steps over.

Especially for the the price, why not just upgrade to a 50trim.

 

[DSMSpyder99]

What you say still makes a lot of sense and is sentiment of what I've read on this site over the years. That is a 50 trim "like" turbo is the pump of choice so to speak and is quite streetable.

I'm breaking my rule on this thread and discussing my own car/needs, I'm sorry.

I'm honestly not the best driver out there, but I'm not crap either, and I'm also no drag racer at the strip. I understand these cars for the most part having owned mine for many years and having a brother that had a built '92 AWD TSi years back when 16gs were considered cool to have, well they still are, they're now called Evo 3's... AS WE ALL KNOW!

For me, I'm just a guy who loves my DSM that would like to get a bigger grin when I lay into into it. Too much to ask for?

Goals are simple but lofty.

-High 11's wish, low 12's more realistic since FWD (not going to the drags at all, this is just an idea of what range I want to be in, assuming I would drag it)
-Crappy CA gas I must use
-350-400whp (gives me a chance to start off a little melow then turn it up once the car gets where it needs to be) RELIABLY on a stock 7bolt(for now), and not stressing the turbo (20-23psi range).
-Turbo design/reliability must be awesome (don't want a turbo I have to replace every 10k miles). The HX-35 sounds amazing, but a few more nuts and bolts during install along with a few caveats and I'd also be running it a little bit outside its efficiency range, which is in the upper PSI range.
-Must be very streetable, but also have a fun mid-top end for the fun freeway pulls.
-Stock cams (for now)
-Prefer to be internally gated to keep cost down, along with passing smog with ease visually.
-CA Smog compliant

I've been in search of the ultimate Turbo setup for a few years, that is why I'm still stock. (money too). The FP Green is one I always cross paths with but am not sure I like paying that higher premium, along with running it internally gated.

Well, I'll shut up now and let the 18g keep taking for itself here.

I like the price/power of this 18g unit by the way, quite appealing.

There is NO WAY you are going to get 350whp from a 16G/18G on straight 91 octane. Also, if it does not have a CARB sticker on it, it is illegal in CA. Your car will not be smog compliant, I hope you know someone who can look the other way when he pops you hood for the visual test. Your best bet would be paint all piping flat black, keep stock intake box, get a 1G BOV, and get a sleeper exhaust from RRE. As for the turbo i would recommend a 50trim or run meth injection on a 16/18G to boost 25+PSI.

 

[caliboy23]

I am curious of this as well. Seeing as I am shooting for 380whp.

Since your looking to make 380 to the wheels you would probably want a turbo thats a lot bigger than an 18G. I say that because most street driven 16/18G's rarely make over 300 to the wheels unless the boost is turned all the way up on an engine that is fully worked over to make big power. Not to mention that those numbers are usually on race gas.

Most hybrids/Garrett style turbo's will have more potential on the street with reasonable boost and pump gas. My teammate's car has an Innovative dual ball bearing T66 that makes 402 to the wheels on pump gas. And that's with a built motor with minor porting to the head, cams, intake manifold upgrade, and every other supporting mod that can be had. And yes that is with lots of dyno tuning on an AEM stand alone.

 

[RipperXX]

Read my mod list, I am already making a hair over 300hp. My car is still untuned and on stock cams with only 2.5" exhaust. no meth injection or anything @ 20psi I am hoping after an engine rebuild since my compression #'s go like 140, 138, 125, 135, cams & 3" exhaust and meth injection. With all that I figure I should be coming close to my goal on 93 pump gas.

If not then I will go to a bigger turbo or look to do more mods like gaskit porting, larger TB, intake manifold etc. But seeing as this car is NOT a drag I am NOT going to build it like one. Fast spool and practicly no lag are very important to me and the reason I am building the car the way I am. So basicly I want to SMALLEST turbo I can make X amount of power with.

Thank you for your input but I do not plan on going to a larger turbo unless I have too. And if I do it will likely be either the FP 18g or something in a BB flavor.

 

[Black_Bullet]

seeing as this car is NOT a drag I am NOT going to build it like one. Fast spool and practicly no lag are very important to me and the reason I am building the car the way I am. So basicly I want to SMALLEST turbo I can make X amount of power with.

Thank you for your input but I do not plan on going to a larger turbo unless I have too. And if I do it will likely be either the FP 18g or something in a BB flavor.

Same here....

Id go 50 trim + if i was building a stroked motor
the only fear then would be drivetrain part longevity as I hear well built 2.3s w/ tdo6 20gs lunch trannys...

 

[gdmbat85]

Ok so here's an update. I just ordered the FP18G today, I'll post up some pics as soon as I receive it.

 

[chavez408]

nice

 

[RipperXX]

Stroking is a good option, especially if your in my boat and are looking to rebuild your engine in the near future. And far as drive train longevity, well I guess we have to bite the bullet again and pump out the $ for a more upgraded tranny.

 

[chavez408]

any information

 

[gdmbat85]

Yea, I have some information. I got the turbo and installed it over the weekend. Still making a few fine adjustments, but its pretty much there. I have it running at 1.45 Bars (21PSI; for some reason my EBC won't go any higher). My first impressions were quite bad. I had it running at around 18psi and the turbo was nothing special. It's very laggy and doesn't reach full boost till 3800RPMs. I started kicking myself as to why I didn't get the Evo3 16g. This was all until I actually did the calculations and realized that I was running at 18psi and not 21-22psi. Lemme just say that a turn of a knob was like night and day. This turbo showed what it could really do over 20PSI. I have full bolt ons with the exception of a FMIC which should be coming in today and the stock snorkel.

Final thoughts: This turbo is great if you plan on running 20+ psi and you don't mind some turbo lag (us FWD cars don't argue too much) This is deffinately more on the drag side yet still easily streetable. If you don't plan on running over 20psi, I wouldn't bother with this turbo. The evo3 would be a far better choice for low boost lvls or people looking for minimal turbo lag. If you run the FP18g right and don't mind some extra lag, you won't be disappointed. I kinda wish they made this turbo with a TD05 housing also.