1G Engine Vibration after Timing belt Install?

[DSMDUDE]

Just changed timing belt and now engine sounds a bit like a coffee grinder between 3-4k rpm. I'm aware this is indicative of balance shaft being out of phase and haven't did the screw driver in back of block check yet. It doesn't sound or feel completely bad so is it possible it's off just a bit instead of being off a full rotation in either direction? I'm assuming if mechanical timing is right the front balance shaft has to be ok? Car runs strong and under boost don't really notice this noise but when accelerating off boost between 3-4k rpm is when I can really hear it. Is running it this way bad for the motor?

 

[DSMDUDE]

I'll be inspecting this recently done timing belt job tomorrow and have more questions:

1) If front balance shaft happens to be the only thing off (ie all timing marks are lined up correctly with auto tension rod in spec) can I just loosen or remove BS pulley to correct that problem without removing timing belt? Does torqueing BS pulley to spec automatically put proper tension on balance shaft belt or do I need to do anything else?

2) If I do need to remove timing belt but auto tensioner is in fact set correctly now, can I leave it alone + slide timing belt off without compressing auto tensioner or moving tensioner arm at all? Would I then be able to get belt back on without moving arm and simply pry belt onto/over pulley or would I have to lever arm a bit so belt can go on? If I do have to move arm then I probably would want to use battery tie down bolt or maybe I should be doing that to begin with to get belt off + on?

 

[Mauispyder]

1) I don't recall doing anything special with my balance shaft belt other than just putting it on. You can get it off and on by turning the crank a little bit without removing the crank sprocket (1999) but you'll need to remove the timing belt.
2) You will have to reset the tension on the timing belt. In the absence of a new tensioner with the grenade pin pre installed, I would remove the tensioner and slowly (like one turn per 5 minutes slowly) compress the pin in a vice until you can put the grenade pin or small Allen wrench through the holes to hold it. If you can't contain yourself to turn the vice slowly you'll have to buy a brand new (oem) tensioner, cuz you'll break it by compressing it quickly.

 

[DSMDUDE]

Since timing belts were changed a few wks ago I just need to check all marks now because of 3-4k rpm engine vibration. If front balance shaft sprocket happens to be only misaligned mark then my question was can I loosen BS pulley and reset BS belt so it lines up without removing timing belt?

To check timing marks, is it correct I have to remove motor mount first and take accessory belts off along with water pump + crank pulleys? Is there anything else or a shortcut to get timing cover off?

Is it possible that instead of loosening belts via proper means to leave them taut and just remove pulleys they're attached to and then reinstall pulleys with belts on them or is that simply not possible?

 

[chrysler kid]

On the 1g you have to remove the crank sprocket to remove the balance shaft belt, however you are asking if you can just loosen the balance shaft tensioner to get slack on the belt so you can try to rotate the balance shaft to match the oil pump being mis aligned.

To answer your question about adjusting the balance shaft without adjusting the oil pump, no I wouldn't risk it. Technically you would be trying to set the balance shaft blindly since it wouldn't be set to the timing point. So your balance shaft could be off a tooth compared to the oil pump and still giving you a slight vibration

Removing the timing belt and then rotating the oil pump sprocket is the best way to do it. To get enough slack in the belt you would have to re do the timing belt alignment regardless of if you were able to slip the belt off (which you can not)

 

[DSMDUDE]

I didn't get your reply at all. If oil pump sprocket is on the mark and I verify via screw driver in back of block that balance shaft is in correct position, and all other timing marks line up EXCEPT for front balance shaft sprocket, then wouldn't the only thing needed to do is loosen BS belt to reposition front BS sprocket?

Btw on my 1g (7-bolt motor) you don't remove crankshaft sprocket to replace belt.

 

[chrysler kid]

Sorry 6 bolt you need to remove sprocket, not 7 bolt.

I'm not aware if you can just rotate the balance shaft sprocket 360 degrees to put it back in balance. Vfaq never mentioned it and the search results only stated to re time the oil pump you had to verify which way the oil pump sprocket would fall

 

[19Eclipse90]

...If oil pump sprocket is on the mark and I verify via screw driver in back of block that balance shaft is in correct position, and all other timing marks line up EXCEPT for front balance shaft sprocket, then wouldn't the only thing needed to do is loosen BS belt to reposition front BS sprocket?

Yes.

 

[DSMDUDE]

I asked earlier:

"If I do need to remove timing belt but auto tensioner is in fact set correctly now, can I leave it alone + slide timing belt off without compressing auto tensioner or moving tensioner arm at all? Would I then be able to get belt back on without moving arm and simply pry belt onto/over pulley or would I have to lever arm a bit so belt can go on? If I do have to move arm then I probably would want to use battery tie down bolt or maybe I should be doing that to begin with to get belt off + on?"

Mauispyder responded:

1) You will have to reset the tension on the timing belt. In the absence of a new tensioner with the grenade pin pre installed, I would remove the tensioner and slowly (like one turn per 5 minutes slowly) compress the pin in a vice until you can put the grenade pin or small Allen wrench through the holes to hold it. If you can't contain yourself to turn the vice slowly you'll have to buy a brand new (oem) tensioner, cuz you'll break it by compressing it quickly.

If my new auto tensioner rod is in spec now (.15-.177) and I need to remove timing belt why would I have to reset tensioner? Did you not understand I just had whole timing belt job done and now going to inspect everything due to engine vibration?

And not sure what you're talking about turning vice 1 full turn and then waiting 5 minutes. Everyone is saying turn vice 1/4 turn, wait 10 seconds and repeat until pin goes in. Your way of doing it would most likely ruin the seals according to everything I've been reading for the past few weeks.

 

[19Eclipse90]

Are you asking the same thing again?

If the auto tensioner is in spec and the other marks are okay, leave the tensioner alone. Fix the front balance shaft and call it good.

If, for whatever reason, you need to compress the auto tensioner with a vice, the slower the better. Too fast and you will ruin it. One full turn every five minutes may be a bit excessive but at least it will be reusable at that point. I don't think there is a spec for how quickly it can be compressed.

 

[DSMDUDE]

If the auto tensioner is in spec and the other marks are okay, leave the tensioner alone. Fix the front balance shaft and call it good.

Ok so if front balance shaft is only thing out I loosen BS pulley and adjust BS sprocket so mark lines up? Front BS can't be out of phase since it's 1:1 ratio with CS sprocket, correct?

For setting BS belt tension, does the 1/4 turn finger check apply or can you give me an idea on how tight it needs to be? Does it compare to accessory belt tension?


I asked this question earlier and didn't get a real answer:

"If I do need to remove timing belt but auto tensioner is in fact set correctly now, can I leave it alone + slide timing belt off without compressing auto tensioner or moving tensioner arm at all? Would I then be able to get belt back on without moving arm and simply pry belt onto/over pulley or would I have to lever arm a bit so belt can go on? If I do have to move arm then I probably would want to use battery tie down bolt or maybe I should be doing that to begin with to get belt off + on?"

 

[19Eclipse90]

Ok so if front balance shaft is only thing out I loosen BS pulley and adjust BS sprocket so mark lines up? Front BS can't be out of phase since it's 1:1 ratio with CS sprocket, correct?

Correct. Its mark either lines up or it doesn't. It has no special tricks.

For setting BS belt tension, does the 1/4 turn finger check apply or can you give me an idea on how tight it needs to be? Does it compare to accessory belt tension?

The tensioner bolt should end up in quadrant four. That is, the tensioner pulley's bolt should be down and to the right of the pulley centerline when proper tension is applied. The measure for tension is pretty generic and has some subjectivity to it: when pressing down on the length of belt running between the balance shaft sprocket and the crank sprocket with a finger, you should get a deflection of 5-7mm (or 0.20-0.28 inches).

I asked this question earlier and didn't get a real answer:

"If I do need to remove timing belt but auto tensioner is in fact set correctly now, can I leave it alone + slide timing belt off without compressing auto tensioner or moving tensioner arm at all? Would I then be able to get belt back on without moving arm and simply pry belt onto/over pulley or would I have to lever arm a bit so belt can go on? If I do have to move arm then I probably would want to use battery tie down bolt or maybe I should be doing that to begin with to get belt off + on?"

If auto tensioner is set correctly, you should be able to slide the "grenade pin" back into it and maintain it's position, making the battery tie down bolt or whatever else useless. When you can do that, remove the tensioner, remove the belt, reset the marks, and redo the belt installation. The tensioner pulley is correctly set when the grenade pin slides in and out of the hydraulic tensioner freely, even after the 15 minutes and six engine rotations.

 

[DSMDUDE]

Correct. Its mark either lines up or it doesn't. It has no special tricks.


The tensioner bolt should end up in quadrant four. That is, the tensioner pulley's bolt should be down and to the right of the pulley centerline when proper tension is applied. The measure for tension is pretty generic and has some subjectivity to it: when pressing down on the length of belt running between the balance shaft sprocket and the crank sprocket with a finger, you should get a deflection of 5-7mm (or 0.20-0.28 inches).

That is some good info I haven't come across yet, Thanks!

If auto tensioner is set correctly, you should be able to slide the "grenade pin" back into it and maintain it's position, making the battery tie down bolt or whatever else useless. When you can do that, remove the tensioner, remove the belt, reset the marks, and redo the belt installation. The tensioner pulley is correctly set when the grenade pin slides in and out of the hydraulic tensioner freely, even after the 15 minutes and six engine rotations.

Believe I got that. So if pin slides in freely I know it's in spec and don't need to adjust tensioner pulley. I can then remove auto tensioner and with it out of the way the arm will have plenty of room to pivot while I get belt in place. Once belt is on reinstall auto tensioner.

Now here's a question, is it better to leave pin in there while turning engine 6 times to make sure marks still line up or pull pin before?

I also read to grease pivot point of arm but not sure exactly where or how much grease or what type is used. Thanks!

 

[19Eclipse90]

Believe I got that. So if pin slides in freely I know it's in spec and don't need to adjust tensioner pulley. I can then remove auto tensioner and with it out of the way the arm will have plenty of room to pivot while I get belt in place. Once belt is on reinstall auto tensioner.

Yes. But once you remove the auto tensioner, you'll have to move the pulley. The two work together to provide the correct tensioner on the belt.

Now here's a question, is it better to leave pin in there while turning engine 6 times to make sure marks still line up or pull pin before?

The pin should be removed when you turn the engine over 6 times. After the six rotations and 15 minutes, you should be able to reinsert the pin with very little resistance, if any. Of course, we recommend you check the actual distance between the auto tensioner body and the arm but being able to reinsert the grenade pin is a good sign.

I also read to grease pivot point of arm but not sure exactly where or how much grease or what type is used. Thanks!

The pivot point is the area where the arm mounts to the engine mount bracket. What type I would say depends on what you have available; something thicker than engine assembly lube, like bearing grease or some all purpose. As to how much, slather it on and wipe off the excess when installed. This is really over-thinking things.

 

[DSMDUDE]

Yes. But once you remove the auto tensioner, you'll have to move the pulley. The two work together to provide the correct tensioner on the belt.

Assuming auto tensioner rod is in spec now, by saying move the pulley do you mean just pivot the arm with pulley in place without loosening or adjusting pulley?

Since you mentioned balance shaft pulley bolt (belonging in quadrant 4) it got me thinking, is there a certain position the idler pulley belongs in too?

Does oil sprocket mark need to be dead on because I seen gravity trick and where it falls is not always exactly where marks line up. Actually is it perhaps better to leave it where it naturally falls instead which would be near mark but off a bit?

Btw is white lithium grease good on pivot point?


Edit: Do you count 39 teeth beginning with belt tooth just above 9 o'clock mark on exhaust cam until even with 3 o'clock mark on intake side? Is main thing 9/3 inner cam marks are perfectly matched up and level or even where head meets valve cover? Do dowel pins need to be exactly at at 12 o'clock and do all 4 cam marks ever line up?

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[19Eclipse90]

Assuming auto tensioner rod is in spec now, by saying move the pulley do you mean just pivot the arm with pulley in place without loosening or adjusting pulley?

If the auto tensioner is in spec now, you should be able to slide the grenade pin into it. Once that is done, in order to remove the belt, the tensioner pulley will need to be loose. When reinstalling everything, you loop the belt around the pulley, install the auto tensioner, and turn the eccentric tensioner pulley to where the grenade pin slides in and out freely of the auto tensioner. At that point, ensure the pulley turns no more when you torque the tensioner pulley to spec. Again, you want to make sure that the specification for the distance between the tensioner arm and the auto tensioner body is correct.

Since you mentioned balance shaft pulley bolt (belonging in quadrant 4) it got me thinking, is there a certain position the idler pulley belongs in too?

The timing belt idler pulley? No, it should be a standard pulley and rotates about its own axis. It is not eccentric like the tensioner pulleys for the balance shaft pulley and the timing tensioner pulley. If it is, you have the wrong pulley. The correct pulley will only go in one spot.

Does oil sprocket mark need to be dead on because I seen gravity trick and where it falls is not always exactly where marks line up. Actually is it perhaps better to leave it where it naturally falls instead which would be near mark but off a bit?

The mark on the front case should aim at the mark on the oil pump sprocket.

Btw is white lithium grease good on pivot point?

I would look for something a little heavier. Axle or bearing grease would be fine.

Edit: Do you count 39 teeth beginning with belt tooth just above 9 o'clock mark on exhaust cam until even with 3 o'clock mark on intake side? Is main thing 9/3 inner cam marks are perfectly matched up and level or even where head meets valve cover? Do dowel pins need to be exactly at at 12 o'clock and do all 4 cam marks ever line up?

Dowel pins must be exactly at 12 o'clock. You are only concerned about the 3 o'clock mark on the exhaust cam sprocket and the 9 o'clock mark on the intake cam sprocket. Those must be straight.
I've never used the "39-tooth-rule". But it appears to me that it is 39 full teeth between the 9 o'clock mark on the exhaust cam sprocket and the 3 o'clock mark on the intake cam sprocket, even if those marks aren't necessarily precisely at those positions -- it's 39 full teeth between those marks when the inner two marks are lined up.

 

[DSMDUDE]

Just checked timing marks and looks like they all line up. Also did screwdriver in block test and balance shaft is in phase too. Did 39 tooth and 12 valley counts and it's good. I didn't like exactly how tensioner plunger appeared, although it seemed real close to spec with drill bit test and pin was close to going in but didn't, so I removed it and found divot on arm (see pic).

I'm going to check all marks real closely again tomorrow and reinstall auto tensioner and if distance between arm + auto tensioner body is good going to button it all up and live with arm divot. Think I'm going to get a feeler gauge so I can measure more accurately though.

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[19Eclipse90]

Do realize that with the divot in the arm, the specification for the distance between the arm and the tensioner body goes out the window. It needs to be smoothed out in order for the specification to be accurately measured.

 

[DSMDUDE]

Since timing belt does appear to be on now exactly where it should be with all marks lined up etc, is it possible to remove arm and replace it and then re-tension pulley so belt doesn't move from where it is now? And still wind up completely good? If it is possible, are the odds actually good I'll be able to do that because have serious doubts I'd be able to reset timing belt correctly if it does move. I guess I would try clamping belt to cam gears, cs + oil pump sprockets? Could use suggestions, thanks.

 

[crash]

I wouldn't put anything back together until you fix those oil leaks or else you'll be pulling the head next...

When you pull it all back apart (you know, to fix the oil leaks...) just follow the vfaq or the FSM step-by-step. Don't take any short cuts, don't try to out think it. Just read through the whole thing start to finish, perform step 1, then go to step 2, etc. If you follow every step then you will know it is done correctly and you will not be second guessing yourself or the job.

 

[babyviper]

HAHAHA! don't forget to do a leak down test when your done.

 

[DSMDUDE]

When you pull it all back apart (you know, to fix the oil leaks...) just follow the vfaq or the FSM step-by-step. Don't take any short cuts, don't try to out think it. Just read through the whole thing start to finish, perform step 1, then go to step 2, etc. If you follow every step then you will know it is done correctly and you will not be second guessing yourself or the job.

I just took it all apart yesterday and took pics seen in earlier post today. I'm not sure what's leaking or even what all could leak oil in that area. Can someone give a me a clue what specifically to look for or what seals could be leaking? I just replaced valve cover gasket 2 wks ago but didn't use any rtv in specified areas like half moon or cam gear side transition area so will take care of that.

In case anyone wasn't following whole thread, a fellow dsm'er changed my timing belt then after hearing engine noise sounding like possible balance shaft out of phase, I decided to take a look but appears all marks are good and balance shafts are in phase, but did discover arm divot.

 

[pauleyman]

If car did not run exactly as it did before id say something is not right. Double check.

 

[chrysler kid]

Your cam seals are leaking, both of them. Under neath the crank gears I can see oil build up and I can see fresh oil on yor water pump. I can tell it's a new water pump and there is fresh oil dripping from it

As I mentioned a page or two ago a misaligned oil pump sprocket is extremely
noticeable and a Hard vibration. It's not a rattle or noise it is the engine shaking the crap out of the chassis making the noises.

Welcome to the fabulous life of dsm maintenance. These cars are what makes a man a mechanic, if you want it done right you have to get your knuckles dirty

For reference I marked the timing belt and the cam and crank teeth before I pulled my belt off of the car. That way I knew exactly tooth to tooth I was putting the belt back on correctly

You can see the silver stripe I put on the belt and on the teeth of the cam and crank gear

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[DSMDUDE]

I'll have to take a closer look at cam seals for leakage because like mentioned new valve cover gasket may be leaking since I didn't use any rtv in that area and bolts needs to be rechecked too.

If I do replace cam seals are you saying to remove timing belt from cams only and chalk mark the belt and cam gears but somehow keep belt clamped to crankshaft + oil sprockets?

 

[pauleyman]

This needs to be said. How long are you going to keep, over analyzing this job? If you have to remove the belt then do so then put it back on. If you have to adjust tension then do so in either direction. What matters at the end of the job is that the marks line up and the tensioner protrusion is correct. You must rotate the engine first before you check tension. Why? To remove slack on the idle side. I have a few posts about this over the years and there are some you tube videos. This job is tedious but very very objective which makes it difficult to mess up if you understand the very objective instructions. If you have never done this you will likely take a few tries getting the marks lined up and a few tries getting tension right. I don't because ive done more than 100 belts but I sure did on the first one but I knew 100% it was right when I finished because it was so easy to check and make sure. Hope this helps.