Bullet Race Engineering Billet Aluminum 4G63 and/or 4G64

[LSM]

I was building a '97 GSX when I accidentally etched one of the main bearing saddles of the block while trying to clean out the oil and water lines since these blocks are getting up there in age now. I never did figure out exactly how it happened, but it did. So now I need a new block. Also, I had decided a while back to do a 2.3L stroker setup, and so I was going to sleeve the cylinders and all of that. Well, unlike 10-15 years ago when I could get a used 4G63 block for $200, I can't seem to find them for under $1200 or so lately, and then I would still have to pay to have the cylinders sleeved, so I'm sure I would be sitting around at least a couple grand by the time it was all said and done.

So then I thought, for another $4,500, I could get a billet aluminum 4G63.....or even better, a billet 4G64 that is made to accept the 4G63 head from Bullet Race Engineering! It already comes with sleeved cylinders, and I could also do a long rod 2.4L setup instead of the 2.3L, which would have a bit of a longer and less cylinder and cylinder wall fatigued lifespan! My question is if anybody here has used one of these blocks, or knows anybody who has?? Are there any downsides to the aluminum block that I'm not thinking of that anybody is aware of?? I know I would have to go with an electronic oil pump, but as far as I know, that would be the only issue I would need to fix. And with that, I would probably go with the Frontline Fabrication Ball Bearing Gerotor Oil Pump if it would work on the aluminum block without any issues. Does anybody have any additional info about these blocks?? I think I'm sold on getting one.....it would just suck to drop $7,500 only to find that there are issues that I wasnt expecting or planning for! Any help will be greatly appreciated!

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Why not align hone your block to fix it?

 

[curt-s]

"etched" in what way? Do you have pictures and measurements?
You'd need to do some pretty serious damage to render a block unusable.

 

[jdxnc]

I don't have any experience with the billet blocks but I know the assembly is not as simple as the oem block, there are some intricacies about it that you need to know. I remember an Evo user bought his own and couldn't get it to stop leaking around the crank seal and Devin Shultz explained some thing that were different vs the oem block.

I believe the block is also designed for a copper head gasket with fire rings, which will require you to have the head machined for receiver grooves.

Count on waiting 1-2 years to receive one of those oil pumps unless you can find one someone wants to part with.

That being said, if you're going to stay manual, stick to 2.0L, the added torque of the 2.4 will wreck the drivetrain if you decide to turn it up. All the quick cars out there are 2.0.

 

[LSM]

"etched" in what way? Do you have pictures and measurements?
You'd need to do some pretty serious damage to render a block unusable.

I honestly didn't think it was too bad.....but everybody on here who has seen the pics has said that the block needs to be replaced.

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I don't have any experience with the billet blocks but I know the assembly is not as simple as the oem block, there are some intricacies about it that you need to know. I remember an Evo user bought his own and couldn't get it to stop leaking around the crank seal and Devin Shultz explained some thing that were different vs the oem block.

I believe the block is also designed for a copper head gasket with fire rings, which will require you to have the head machined for receiver grooves.

Count on waiting 1-2 years to receive one of those oil pumps unless you can find one someone wants to part with.

That being said, if you're going to stay manual, stick to 2.0L, the added torque of the 2.4 will wreck the drivetrain if you decide to turn it up. All the quick cars out there are 2.0.

Yeah man, I think you're right. First off, you are correct. The aluminum block does use fire rings amd they didn't tell me a damn thing extra that I would need to do with the head. Basically, I saw that one of the main bearing saddles had gotten etched, then everybody was saying that I need to replace the block because of that. I was also wanting to do the 2.3l stroker mainly just to reduce the lag as much as possible.....but of course the severe rod angle would put serious stress on the rods, pistons, and cylinder walls.....so THEN I thought, we'll for a few grand more, I could do the aluminum block that already has sleeved cylinders, and I could actually even do 156mm long rods to reduce the angle stress.....but nobody has ever said that it would put a lot of extra stress on the drivetrain! I have all evo 3 internals in my transmission, the Frontline Fabrication transfer case billet brace, a DSS 3.5" aluminum drive shaft, and I was about to get the Volk Tubular Rear Subframe so I won't destroy my rear diff. Besides me still obviously needing stronger than stock axles, I figured my drivetrain was gonna be pretty solid! But this whole 2.3l idea is all just leading to a bunch of headaches. I do have nitrous, so I suppose I could always just spray a little on low rpms so I can hit boost faster if I want to! I might just go back to a stock 2.0l. Anybody want to buy a Manley light weight 100mm crank??! Haha!

 

[curt-s]

How would you be the one to cause that "etching"? What did you do to clean it?

That looks like rust has eaten away at iron for quite some time. The inside of the block and visible cylinder bore appear to back that up.

 

[stealthee]

I was building a '97 GSX when I accidentally etched one of the main bearing saddles of the block while trying to clean out the oil and water lines since these blocks are getting up there in age now. I never did figure out exactly how it happened, but it did. So now I need a new block. Also, I had decided a while back to do a 2.3L stroker setup, and so I was going to sleeve the cylinders and all of that. Well, unlike 10-15 years ago when I could get a used 4G63 block for $200, I can't seem to find them for under $1200 or so lately, and then I would still have to pay to have the cylinders sleeved, so I'm sure I would be sitting around at least a couple grand by the time it was all said and done.

So then I thought, for another $4,500, I could get a billet aluminum 4G63.....or even better, a billet 4G64 that is made to accept the 4G63 head from Bullet Race Engineering! It already comes with sleeved cylinders, and I could also do a long rod 2.4L setup instead of the 2.3L, which would have a bit of a longer and less cylinder and cylinder wall fatigued lifespan! My question is if anybody here has used one of these blocks, or knows anybody who has?? Are there any downsides to the aluminum block that I'm not thinking of that anybody is aware of?? I know I would have to go with an electronic oil pump, but as far as I know, that would be the only issue I would need to fix. And with that, I would probably go with the Frontline Fabrication Ball Bearing Gerotor Oil Pump if it would work on the aluminum block without any issues. Does anybody have any additional info about these blocks?? I think I'm sold on getting one.....it would just suck to drop $7,500 only to find that there are issues that I wasnt expecting or planning for! Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Early Performance has a Bullet Engineering billet block in their Conquest. I know one issue they ran into was they didn't think to check piston to valve clearance when assembling things and ended up kissing valves on the first dyno pull. There were probably a few other hurdles, especially since they're RWD. I wasn't there for the majority of the install, and it's been awhile since they put it in, and I don't really remember everything Jared told me.

 

[jed344]

The billet blocks still require some machine work as any motor does depending on goals and parts used. They also do have some quirks as already said.

The damage to your block looks like from rust honestly.

All the motors i have built i always check piston protrusion and how much was decked off the head. This is needed for me to figure real static compression ratio among other things, but if these two values show up as being risky then i know i must check piston to valve clearance on the motor. I would be surprised that someone building a billet block motor did not check these things. I would take a guess in the dark and the hitting the valves would have more then likely been due to running aluminum rod and not factoring in that they stretch some when they are warm. You have to make sure there is some extra clearance piston to valve cold because that gap will close up some when the rods are hot.

Most of the forged pistons already have deeper valve relief cuts but if that is still not enough you can have it cut even deeper to provide what is needed.

The issue i see is that i do not think a align hone is going to fix this. When you align hone the mains they shave some off the girdle mating surface and then re hone the bores straight.
The mating surface on ur block where the girdle mates too may be the issue. I do not think you can machine that smooth again as then it would move the crank up towards the deck in the block, my understanding that is why they only shave some off the girdle as it does not move the location of the crank.

 

[stealthee]

Yeah. I don't remember the exact scenario, I just remember being told they kissed the valves on a dyno run.

 

[DSMPT]

I myself have no experience with the billet block, so can't tell anything for sure. But once my customer wanted it for RB, so I searched and talked with manufacturers. One thing I could realize was maybe it's not so ideal if you are still planning to use the car on streets. If the car would be for streets, you would probably choose a wet block instead of a dry or solid. If so, you may be struggling with head gasket sealing for coolant and oil. You would probably need more work to seal properly. If it's only for racing, probably not a big deal.
And too much line bore/hone would change the thrust bearing groove height, this would possibly cause the thrust bearing pushed towards outside and causes improper side clearance after installing. So if the damage is more than line bore/hone limit, you would need to repair the block and the cap/girdle. Some machine shop can do that but considering the money for that, you look for another good core may be cheaper. It's just my opinion though.

 

[LSM]

How would you be the one to cause that "etching"? What did you do to clean it?

That looks like rust has eaten away at iron for quite some time. The inside of the block and visible cylinder bore appear to back that up.

I believe I caused the etching by doing electrolysis on the block to try and clear out the oil and water passages. I didn't notice the etching until after that, which is why I think I caused it. All the rust you see is the flash rusting from pulling it out of the electrolysis bath! It didn't have any rust on it prior to that. Sorry, I didn't realize how obvious the rust was showing in the pic I uploaded!

Early Performance has a Bullet Engineering billet block in their Conquest. I know one issue they ran into was they didn't think to check piston to valve clearance when assembling things and ended up kissing valves on the first dyno pull. There were probably a few other hurdles, especially since they're RWD. I wasn't there for the majority of the install, and it's been awhile since they put it in, and I don't really remember everything Jared told me.

Oh really? Damn, so basically there could possibly be all sorts of issues that I wouldn't think would be an issue huh?! I never would have guessed any valve problems with clearing the pistons! Thank you for the info, I appreciate it!

The billet blocks still require some machine work as any motor does depending on goals and parts used. They also do have some quirks as already said.

The damage to your block looks like from rust honestly.

All the motors i have built i always check piston protrusion and how much was decked off the head. This is needed for me to figure real static compression ratio among other things, but if these two values show up as being risky then i know i must check piston to valve clearance on the motor. I would be surprised that someone building a billet block motor did not check these things. I would take a guess in the dark and the hitting the valves would have more then likely been due to running aluminum rod and not factoring in that they stretch some when they are warm. You have to make sure there is some extra clearance piston to valve cold because that gap will close up some when the rods are hot.

Most of the forged pistons already have deeper valve relief cuts but if that is still not enough you can have it cut even deeper to provide what is needed.

The issue i see is that i do not think a align hone is going to fix this. When you align hone the mains they shave some off the girdle mating surface and then re hone the bores straight.
The mating surface on ur block where the girdle mates too may be the issue. I do not think you can machine that smooth again as then it would move the crank up towards the deck in the block, my understanding that is why they only shave some off the girdle as it does not move the location of the crank.

Again, I apologize for not realizing how obvious the rust was showing in the pic! The block was rust free when pulled from the car, its flash rusting from pulling it out of the electrolysis bath!

Well, my financial situation just changed for the worst, so it's looking like buying a $7,500 aluminum block is going to be out of the question! I'm gonna have to stick with a stock block.

To be honest I didn't even look at the mating surface because the etching caught my eye so fast. As far as the bearing saddles, are they not able to be shaved a bit and then the removed material compensated with slightly thicker main bearings?

As far as the girdle mating surface, what issues would that cause? There were no visible leaks from the block when I removed it from the car, just to be clear. Would that cause external oil leaking or would it cause internal issues?? Sorry, I'm not super familiar with all the specifics with clearances and whatnot with the block.....its a lot to learn and too easy to cause a major catastrophe if I screw it up......so I just never bothered with the block internals much at all!

I myself have no experience with the billet block, so can't tell anything for sure. But once my customer wanted it for RB, so I searched and talked with manufacturers. One thing I could realize was maybe it's not so ideal if you are still planning to use the car on streets. If the car would be for streets, you would probably choose a wet block instead of a dry or solid. If so, you may be struggling with head gasket sealing for coolant and oil. You would probably need more work to seal properly. If it's only for racing, probably not a big deal.
And too much line bore/hone would change the thrust bearing groove height, this would possibly cause the thrust bearing pushed towards outside and causes improper side clearance after installing. So if the damage is more than line bore/hone limit, you would need to repair the block and the cap/girdle. Some machine shop can do that but considering the money for that, you look for another good core may be cheaper. It's just my opinion though.

Yeah, I could go with fire rings but then they aren't meant to last for all that long. And yes, this will be my almost daily driver, so I'm pretty much convinced that I'm scrapping the aluminum block idea. Thank you for the info though, I appreciate it for sure!