Before I get started on Jackal...

[GSLENK]

I guess Ill look for the best prices i can find on both systems and see what the difference really is. If it really is only a $200 difference it might just be worth it to have a stronger support group, because this will be my first attempt at tuning a car. It just seemed like ecmlink is a shiny overpriced product (like apple ). But i wouldnt want to sell myself short of possible options in the future. Like i said, my immediate plans are to max out the factory setup on the 14b (WB, boost guage, MBC) then add fuel upgarades for a 16g etc... Im going for a fast/fun street car that doesnt guzzle gas, especially if i stay out of boost.

And thanks for the replies, pretty much everyone has been extremely helpful. I can understand bias from owners experience, thats why im asking for it... If enough people say something is good, then there is a good chance it is. If a lot of people have issues, theres a fair chance I will have the same happen to me.

I can also factor in the fact that a non-eprom socket is gonna cost me ~135 from ecmlink alone, whereas its a lot cheaper (just the conversion part) as part of the whole ecm link package. (i got a pretty decent quoted package "deal" just asking the owner)

 

[JAX2Ganey]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tun...al-speed-density-tuning-software-1g-dsms.html Go with Jackal.

 

[bastarddsm]

Two other points about about jackal. Its setup to not use closed loop, and it does not support a oem narrowband sensor.

If your only looking for a very mild street car, just stick with the 1g maf. Get the ostrich, start with the basics: rev limit, launch control, injector compensation. Then play with the timing and fuel maps. Once you get that down, you can move up to SD if you want.

 

[GSLENK]

Two other points about about jackal. Its setup to not use closed loop, and it does not support a oem narrowband sensor.

If your only looking for a very mild street car, just stick with the 1g maf. Get the ostrich, start with the basics: rev limit, launch control, injector compensation. Then play with the timing and fuel maps. Once you get that down, you can move up to SD if you want.

Closed loop, like when the car is at operating temp? (dumb question, but i had to be clear) wouldnt that make the car idle high run rich fan off etc? or it that a moot point because all of those parameters will be tuned with jackal.

For those of you saying ECM link, besides the better/easier GUI, What can ECMlink do specifically that JAckal cannot?

So far I gather (ecm can, jackal cant):
-Run factory Maf, maft etc (I eventually plan to go SD... so this is negligable)
-no static timing after 15psi?
-costs 200-400 more ( just had to add that)

 

[Tyeler18]

Your nuts.

Jackal - 20 (free, unless you buy updated payware version for 20)
ostrich - 100(used everywhere)
map and iat - 60

That doesnt add up to 450.

Link v3 - 545
sd bundle - 95
shipping to my house - 60

Looks like 180 vs 700 to me. Both need an eprom, which puts links price to nearly $1000. You can get aem standalone for that. Besides thats what a 1g gsx is worth. Pretty ridiculous imo.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Used Jackal to brand new link.

I've bought v3 FULL for $300 shipped used. SD just as cheap as you have. $60 for shipping? Do you live with Santa?

Like I said, I find link to be worth the extra bit of money you spend in comparison. Especially for someone who has to ask a question like this.

 

[rbwtrans]

Two other points about about jackal. Its setup to not use closed loop, and it does not support a oem narrowband sensor.

If your only looking for a very mild street car, just stick with the 1g maf. Get the ostrich, start with the basics: rev limit, launch control, injector compensation. Then play with the timing and fuel maps. Once you get that down, you can move up to SD if you want.

x2

Sign up with yahoo group dsm-ecu. That's where you can find all of the chip files (free!)Use Tuner Pro (FREE!) with your Ostrich. I have had a lot of fun and completely changed my perspective on how to "tune" a car by playing with this. If you play with it for just a little while, you'll understand alot more of what you're trying to do with either Link or Jackal.

(personally, I have both, but run neither)

 

[airmail96]

Closed loop, like when the car is at operating temp? (dumb question, but i had to be clear) wouldnt that make the car idle high run rich fan off etc? or it that a moot point because all of those parameters will be tuned with jackal.

For those of you saying ECM link, besides the better/easier GUI, What can ECMlink do specifically that JAckal cannot?

So far I gather (ecm can, jackal cant):
-Run factory Maf, maft etc (I eventually plan to go SD... so this is negligable)
-no static timing after 15psi?
-costs 200-400 more ( just had to add that)

ECMlink can do boost per gear, ECMlink can adjust your throttle position sensor, control your fans to turn on at a certain point, can test your fuel pump, can guestimate your horsepower level.

Both can control water meth/nitrous, if you get the werewolf version of jackal you can do 10k rpm, everything is based of of psi not load, tables scale to the map sensor that you are using.

 

[91stocker]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Used Jackal to brand new link.

Well since ostrich 2.0 is back ordered/make to order its easier to just buy a used unit. Even new its only 175. I see ostrich set ups with sensors go for 100 quite often. But yea sorry that is a bit misleading, $75. But i can take a screen shot if you'd like, link full v3 with sd bundle, maf cable, and eprom conversion comes to $815 before shipping. I paid 800 for my car....

x2

Sign up with yahoo group dsm-ecu. That's where you can find all of the chip files (free!)Use Tuner Pro (FREE!) with your Ostrich. I have had a lot of fun and completely changed my perspective on how to "tune" a car by playing with this. If you play with it for just a little while, you'll understand alot more of what you're trying to do with either Link or Jackal.

(personally, I have both, but run neither)

Thats some good advice there. Tons of info on the yahoo group, plus http://www.dsmecu.com/ is pretty devoted to using and adapting tunerpro for 1g's. (Note: the site is down atm)

 

[Tyeler18]

Well since ostrich 2.0 is back ordered/make to order its easier to just buy a used unit. Even new its only 175. I see ostrich set ups with sensors go for 100 quite often. But yea sorry that is a bit misleading, $75. But i can take a screen shot if you'd like, link full v3 with sd bundle, maf cable, and eprom conversion comes to $815 before shipping. I paid 800 for my car....



Thats some good advice there. Tons of info on the yahoo group, plus http://www.dsmecu.com/ is pretty devoted to using and adapting tunerpro for 1g's. (Note: the site is down atm)

Like I said, I paid $300 for the complete V3 Full setup. I think that for the OP link is a better route for him. It'll be more userfriendly to learn on.

 

[airmail96]

I don't see how jackal isn't user friendly, I see more post on here asking how to setup link, then I ever see on the dsmap forums. You have your fuel and timing table, your ve tables, and then your table for iat compensation, rev limiter, and launch control, but a lass to each their own.

 

[onefast2gdsm]

I only have experience with link v3, and I dove into speed density with no maf without tuning anything before. It was quite difficult learning everything, but once I figured it out, I love it. I bought v3 with the SD bundle. Best money I spent on my car. Link can do a lot, and Im sure I haven't even explored half of it yet. Op if you have no experience with SD I strongly suggest you consider link. Someone on the ecmlink forums put a full guide together 20 pages long to follow.

 

[bastarddsm]

Closed loop, like when the car is at operating temp? (dumb question, but i had to be clear) wouldnt that make the car idle high run rich fan off etc? or it that a moot point because all of those parameters will be tuned with jackal.

For those of you saying ECM link, besides the better/easier GUI, What can ECMlink do specifically that JAckal cannot?

So far I gather (ecm can, jackal cant):
-Run factory Maf, maft etc (I eventually plan to go SD... so this is negligable)
-no static timing after 15psi?
-costs 200-400 more ( just had to add that)

I mean that it doesn't use the oxegen sensor as feedback to keep your car at 14.7:1 during cruize. It's setup not to use it. It is sort of is a moot point, but you have to pretty good at dialing in the VE table. It's kind of a pain in the ass to do it.

Let me make a few things clear tho. You will not gain power just for switching to SD. The only time you will gain power is if your intake to the turbo is restrictive.

Let me make another thing clear. You can use the Ostrich to do anything you want, however most of it you will have to figure out for yourself. If you use jackal you will run sd, and have less control of your car than ECM link. If you use Tunerpro to make your own bins, you can run a maf, or sd. I'm even working on a way to run a native GM maf.

 

[91stocker]

Let me make a few things clear tho. You will not gain power just for switching to SD. The only time you will gain power is if your intake to the turbo is restrictive.

Like by a maf?....

I don't see how jackal isn't user friendly, I see more post on here asking how to setup link, then I ever see on the dsmap forums. You have your fuel and timing table, your ve tables, and then your table for iat compensation, rev limiter, and launch control, but a lass to each their own.

My thoughts exactly. Every thread in "tuning and engine management" is a link help thread. It just seems entirely overcomplicated.

 

[D's GS-T]

I'd have to imagine there is way more people with link though, so naturally there are more questions. people also tend to ask Qs about alot of stuff that usually isn't complicated on here .

 

[onefast2gdsm]

Let me make a few things clear tho. You will not gain power just for switching to SD. The only time you will gain power is if your intake to the turbo is restrictive.

How does that make sense. More restriction before the turbo means less air to compress. Please elaborate if I'm missing something.

 

[compression]

i am not very familiar with jackal/ostrich, what kind of power are people making with this setup?
people make over 1,000 whp with ecmlink and has an excellent customer service and help in their forums ( ours too obviously ) the other setup may be in the same boat, i'm not sure i just know i haven't heard of it.

i would also look into getting bigger injectors then what you listed thats only slightly more then stock
depending on what exactly you want to do with the car, i went with 650's and wish i had went 750's or higher.

 

[pneumo]

Converting to speed/density is a hot topic lately, but it's not always needed until a car reaches high HP. I've personally run a 1G maf, 2G maf and EVO maf and and have seen the power they can support before they become a restriction. When my car was making low 300-ish HP on a 2G maf I logged the pressure drop, then I swapped an EVO maf and logged pressure drop with it. It was only worth 1/4 psi. That's about 3 HP. I've seen several EVO's at the 400AWHP level convert to speed/density and only gain 5hp. The EVO maf only becomes a restriction when pushing over 450AWHP. Yes a maf is a restriction- No it's not as bad as you think.

Honestly I prefer MAF based tuning for cars making less than 450AWHP simply because it's so freakin easy to tune. Used 2G mafs are very cheap, a used EVO maf isn't much more. Just be honest with yourself, if you're actually making over 400WHP then get a system that can handle speed/density and prepare for a little more complexity and learning. At high power levels it's really nice to have support and feedback from users who have been through it before.

 

[JAX2Ganey]

ecmlink or Ostrich - DSM Forums: Mitsubishi Eclipse, Plymouth Laser, and Eagle Talon Forum: DSMtalk.com
Heres another current thread. Jackal is very easy to use, cheap and effective. Speed density cleans up the engine bay and is still very functional. I cant complain at all.

 

[compression]

i dont think its all about the maf being restrictive, one of the main reasons i switched was the way it monitors the air, and how a boost leak wont totally ruin your tune or affect the whole tuning process ( obviously you could just fix it ) also that i have the ability to monitor my air temps in the uicp, and log boost levels pretty easily.

and without the cable this would be $600, compared to aem ems? ecmlink is dirt cheap they may as well be giving it away for all it does.

<a href="http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/mxdawg121/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=IMAG0197.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/mxdawg121/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0197.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

 

[JAX2Ganey]

Another good point for speed density; blowing a coupler or a big boost leak wont leave you stranded on the side of the road or limping home.

 

[TexasTurbo]

I have a few opinions on this.

Being able to blow off a coupler or run w/ a boost leak constantly is NOT a good thing. If you have problems with couplers blowing off your worries are better spent elsewhere than what tuning software to use to remedy lack of mechanical skills or correct parts for the job (tbolts). I'm gonna tell you guys a little tip. Use wd-40 on your piping/couplers when they're assembled and you will have a bi*** of a time getting that coupler back off with the clamp removed.... let alone trying to do it with boost pressure with a tbolt clamp on it.

DSMLink is a good product. I'm not going to discount that at all. Everything I've read and heard about it has been good except for one thing that people like to whine a lot about, the cost. I understand these cars are not the most expensive speed on the road and I think that causes a lot of people to penny pinch and cut corners with their DSM's. Look into what it costs to be a player in the supra game. I've got a clue.... it's $$$$$. I think with the robust options that DSMLink has added in their software it is a very good option for the beginner to the advanced tuner. The support is supposedly amazing on their forums too. The two guys that own DSMLink I'm pretty sure have degrees from going to college. The product may not have always been as good as it is today but I think they've mostly moved away from the issues that were complained about previously like not having timing past a certain rpm/boost level.

Jackal did start out as a good thing where lots of community input was used to get it where it is. The thing that scares me is that there were so many MAJOR bugs in both the eprom code and the java gui code that were "worked out" on peoples' running builds. This is because the programmer/owner of Jackal doesn't own a DSM and has personally told me that they will never buy another one. That may not be here nor there, but the fact remains that Jackal is not run by a DSM'r or even a Mitsubishi owner. I know that I would not feel comfortable putting an incomplete tuning system software in my car if I had just spent 3k on a built long block. The risk is not worth it. There were guys on the Jackal forums that found out the "hard way" that the timing values would loop back to row 1 after it exceed the final load row. This is INCREDIBLY bad. The issue was fixed, but someone had to nearly blow their motor up to figure out that this was a problem in the software. Who knows what else is not working the way it's expected to. The testing for Jackal is all done by people that are just members of the community and have done the testing just to help. It takes a long time to tune a car that has things that change the VE from stock on Jackal. You will do many runs before your tune is dialed and then the weather changes or you go to another elevation and your tune is out of wack. This is a result of the lack of barometric pressure compensation that is typically included in the better tuning systems and the lack of proper intake temperature compensation.

If I had to do it all over again my options in order of most likely to do to not likely to do would be as follows:

1. AEM EMS if I had the money for it.
2. Ostrich/Tuner Pro (cost effective very robust)
3. DSMLink (a little pricey but gets updates regularly and is tested by professionals)
4. Eprom/Burner/TPro (very cost effective, very robust, a little harder to deal with changing tunes)
5. Jackal (probably wouldn't use this again due to the direction it has taken)

If anyone has any questions about this, feel free to PM me or we can discuss this here in the thread. I always hated how these threads turned into pissing matches and I think it's because people get emotionally invested in the product they've spent their money on. I do not think that's a bad thing, I like to stand behind the products I buy as well.

Edit: I'd also like to add that having a vented BOV isn't the coolest thing in the world. I ran one for a long time using S/D and have now opted to get a recirc'd Tial BOV for the efficiency of the and the fact that it doesn't matter if anyone outside of my car knows I have turbo by way of hearing a loud bov. The maf is also NOT nearly the restriction many of the S/D guys will have you believe it is. If you're really concerned you can measure the pressure drop on the air filter side and on the precompressor intake side to see that the pressure drop is nearly non existent. S/D on Jackal also does not use your IAT to adjust the AFR, it only pulls a few degrees of timing if it thinks that you're running too hot of intake temps. The stock ecu also does this pre compressor. Real S/D systems work using the gas law of pv=nrt. The S/D being used on stock DSM ecu's is not an implementation of this but rather a software emulation/translation into maf hz that the ecu understands. The "air flow input" on the ecu is an input that takes a frequency, not a steady voltage from 1-5v like a MAP sensor puts out. The ecu is doing this translation using code and telling the car "you're flowing this much air" based on what the MAP sensor says combined with the VE table tweaks you have to make.

 

[JAX2Ganey]

I didnt say run the car constantly with a boost leak. I said you wont be stranded on the side of the road.

 

[91stocker]

Jackal did start out as a good thing where lots of community input was used to get it where it is. The thing that scares me is that there were so many MAJOR bugs in both the eprom code and the java gui code that were "worked out" on peoples' running builds. This is because the programmer/owner of Jackal doesn't own a DSM and has personally told me that they will never buy another one. That may not be here nor there, but the fact remains that Jackal is not run by a DSM'r or even a Mitsubishi owner. I know that I would not feel comfortable putting an incomplete tuning system software in my car if I had just spent 3k on a built long block. The risk is not worth it. There were guys on the Jackal forums that found out the "hard way" that the timing values would loop back to row 1 after it exceed the final load row. This is INCREDIBLY bad. The issue was fixed, but someone had to nearly blow their motor up to figure out that this was a problem in the software. Who knows what else is not working the way it's expected to. The testing for Jackal is all done by people that are just members of the community and have done the testing just to help. It takes a long time to tune a car that has things that change the VE from stock on Jackal.

How many years ago was this? Ever since ive got involved in Jackal a couple years ago ive never heard of any of that.

It was an open source project created by a community of dsm'ers. Im sure in the "very" beginning of the project there were a few bugs. How many "updates" has link put out since the beginning? Same idea.

Your entire post seems like a ridiculous attempt to bash a solid product that is offered basically for free.

By that your not only bashing a product but the many dsmer's that donated their time to bring you a better product for FREE.


There are way to many egos evolved in this whole thing. The guys that were around for when they got banned from tuners, the link nutswingers trying to justify spending more then their cars value on tuning software for a car making 16g power, then half of the dsmap crowd that followed flux over to dsmecu.

What people are forgetting is that you get full speed density tuning nearly for free. A tuner which is more then enough for 99% of dsmer's.

After tuning with translators, different mafs, and safc's, Jackal is gift from heaven comparatively. I love it and will never tune a 1g with anything else. Anyone that can say its hard to set up or use has never used it before or should buy a honduh.

 

[TexasTurbo]

That's all well and good but I was one of the people that began testing Jackal in the beginning and even suggested that it be called Jackal and Werewolf. I was around when it was still PDyno and the REAL dsmap. I'm not bashing anything just speaking the truth. I helped test a lot of stuff with that software when the userbase on the forum was pretty much dead. I think there were less than 10 active members posting regularly on that site when I joined. I'm intimately familiar with everything that went into that project and even helped design the freescale based map chips being sold on the site. I would say that my thoughts have some merit more than just bashing a product. I was a bit brainwashed for a while and now I am quite a bit more open to other options. After evaluating other options I realized that, no, Jackal is not as great as some may think and there's really nothing wrong with a MAF at all. If we want to get into who's nutswinging then I'd have to say that the DSMLink guys don't have to swing any nuts because the product is already solid and the few that choose to do so are a rather small minority out of the whole group that uses that software.

Is it not surprising to you that some of the major veteran dsm guys/ecu modders that used to go to that site for good info refuse to go there now? I think that product and website are only existent to further someone's hustle.

Please tell me what I said that was "bashing" that wasn't true while keeping in mind that just because you didn't see something happen or hear about it publicly on the forum doesn't mean it did not happen. How often were you in the chat server where problems were being worked on in real time? I was there every day helping people.

The point is, there are better options for the money and Jackal is mainly re-inventing the wheel. An updated gui isn't going to sell me on a product. The flawless functionality of it will.... and Jackal/Werewolf are far from being there IMO. PDyno and DSMap written by Nick Sanders worked fine for my car before the "revamp" and "transfer of ownership" occurred.

 

[99gst_racer]

Your entire post seems like a ridiculous attempt to bash a solid product that is offered basically for free.

By that your not only bashing a product but the many dsmer's that donated their time to bring you a better product for FREE.

Acknowledging flaws and "bashing" are two completely things.