Before I get started on Jackal...

[91stocker]

As for Jackle whats with you guys? Its understanable you like what you have, but dont act all Jehova's whitness and go door to door preaching the gospel.

Its not preaching, its showing people the light, haha thats a joke. But really its hard to see jackal threads cluttered up with arguments about link. Especially when you have people sponsored by link voicing their opinion, or people that have never used one or the either voicing their opinions. I dont claim do know all that much about it, maybe after i fully understand hex coding i can get on the level of some of you guys. But untill then any small step ive ran across has been an easy fix. I can calculate airflow with jackal and some math, changing ve's is insanely easy to me.

Some of you guys talking about changing tunes for anti lag or for the weather, you realize you can save more then one tune right? And know you can switch between tunes on the fly right?

But on technical side, it works, and well. Get the job done, and cheap. GUI could use some work, and logging could use some work.

Thats the only thing ive tried to push in any Jackal thread. If there are people in the 10's running jackal then its good enough for 90% of the people on this site. Even if at sometime you grow out of it your not out anything.

Id like to hear some input from Mr. Peepers, hes the fastest Jackal user that i know of.

As far as tuning, first and formost, ECM link logging. No need for serial adapters (v3 only) or a laptop with a serial port. 70 sample per/sec data rate with LIVE graphing! <one feature I've not seen in any other setup (cant say much for Jackle and Tunerpro, been a year or so since I last touched one, but then logging was through MMCD/TMOlogger/Evoscan).

I get 45/sec with my homebrew cable on Jackal and tp with all parameters selected. Ive read a few threads where some people say the ecu itself is the reason for the speeds. Has anyone logged faster on a 1g ecu?

Jackal also has live graphing and doesnt require a serial port...

Driveability is slightly effected by the load cap (similar to V2 of link)

Why have i never heard of this? But its brought up on Jackal conversations though


But im glad this thread turned out so well. Lots of great info on 1g, ostrich, tp and jackal. Glad the discussion is still going.

 

[H4G64T]

Thats the only thing ive tried to push in any Jackal thread. If there are people in the 10's running jackal then its good enough for 90% of the people on this site. Even if at sometime you grow out of it your not out anything.

Id like to hear some input from Mr. Peepers, hes the fastest Jackal user that i know of.



I get 45/sec with my homebrew cable on Jackal and tp with all parameters selected. Ive read a few threads where some people say the ecu itself is the reason for the speeds. Has anyone logged faster on a 1g ecu?

Jackal also has live graphing and doesnt require a serial port...



Why have i never heard of this? But its brought up on Jackal conversations though


But im glad this thread turned out so well. Lots of great info on 1g, ostrich, tp and jackal. Glad the discussion is still going.

Only if 90% of the people on this site own 1Gs. You continue to overlook the fact that logging on Jackal with a 2G is pretty much worthless.

 

[91stocker]

Only if 90% of the people on this site own 1Gs. You continue to overlook the fact that logging on Jackal with a 2G is pretty much worthless.

True on a 2g it is, but i meant performance wise its enough for 90%.

That will probably be flamed, but 10% in the tens or faster seems pretty close to me.

 

[Sam@RRE]

I wouldnt judge any engine managment systems based on how much power it made or how fast a car is. There are fast cars without any sort of management. Just a carb, small wrenches and a screw driver.
Power is denoted by parts on the car, boost level, and tuner competance. You can have a $12,000 Motec System used in formula cars and make sub AFC horsepower if you dont know what you are doing or just bad set up car on the mechanical side of things. So the whole "this car goes this fast on this system, its better" is irrelivant. To me what makes any system worth anything is:
First and formost, control. Both offer full control of the basics, fuel and timing idependantly via direct control of injector pulse width and actual ignition timing.
Among other things, how much definition it offers, if the adjustments are only made every 2000RPM and everything between is interpolated, it sucks. 500RPM increments, perfect. 250rpm...a little overkill but workable. 125rpm increments...to much numbers to look at, makes me dizzy and give me carple tunnel. Load definition will define day to day drivability in any condition and throttle input. And how consistant the car is during the changes in conditions like elevation, tempurature and throttle input is another factor in how good a system is.
(speaking of consistancy, I tuned a powerFC in a SR20 that freaking lost 100whp after being tuned at 370whp on our dyno here, then we ran it at Willow springs the car was running slow. We threw it on our dyno again out there and it was down 100whp. The elevation caused it to over shoot airflow causing it to richen up really bad and pull timing, basicly elevation unduced boost leak symptoms causing the power loss in addition to actual loss in air density due to elevation.
3rd in importance- ease of use, features, flexability, logging, map switching, knock lights, bugginess, etc.
4th-Price. Is it worth the money vs what you get.

All in all, the basic necessities, to tune a car is there in both systems. But its the time put to perfect a system to cater to every aspect of the car from cold start hot start, elevation, hot days cold days, humidity, air metering, WOT performance, partial transitioning cause there is more than just 100% throttle (some people turn at high speeds !! and WOT not always the best in some turns) multiple maps among other features is what makes the value of any system.

On the note of people having to constantly adjust for weather, temp or altitude...my car on both the EMS or Link, once tuned it worked. Never had the thing change. If you have to adjust anything, you got a setting wrong like the AIT weighing in link or possible 10 things wrong on AEM. Last I checked in on Jackle they were having AIT compensation issues being to agressive or not doing what it needed to do at all.

Edit:
Looked up Jackle again right now. Looks like it has graphing now...it looks scarily similar to LinkV3 UI. And its $20 now, and werewolf is $200 for more load/rpm breakpoints, kinda like a Link Lite and Full

 

[autotalon]

Apples to apples, Jackal was the beginning phase of DSMap. Much like link had previous versions, DSMap has now grown to Werewolf. True pressure based timing and fuel. If comparisons are to be made they should be between the most recent versions. i.e. V3-Werewolf. I used to run Jackal, now I run Werewolf. In all honesty, the only thing that Werewolf lacks is better logging. The thing that V3 lacks is on the fly changing of the tune. Thats just my opinion, take it as that.

 

[Sam@RRE]

This is true, you cant adjust the DA tables as the engine is running and it needs to be shut off ECUflash style. AEM is on the fly. Currently Thomas is working on that to enable on the fly DA changes, hence development in the next update or so is what it seems like. But really how much would it kill you to pull over, review your log, make changes, shut the motor down, flash it and turn it back on. But I have to admit I do get lazy sometimes when that last run was just perfect except for 1~3 breakpoints was off by 2%. I just make the changes on the fly through the sliders and call it done. Or if Im nearing the end of the tune and Im just trying to find the last bit of timing here and there, or wanna lean the whole thing out by 3% to see if any reasonable gains are made, I make the change in the sliders on the fly instead of adjusting cells in the DA tables. If it doesnt work out, I just switch it back on real quick, if it works well, I apply those changes to DA, key off, and flash it in.

Speaking of apples to apples...explain the similarities in GUI? .
Joking aside, I feel Lite has more to offer than Jackle, but that $195 Jak/Ostrich vs $425 Lite price tags. Yhea you win that one. $230 saved is a good chunk of cash that can go towards fuel system upgrades. For what I'd reccomend Lite or Jak for would be people not trying to get all the bells and shiney whistles. People that are looking into AFC's and I want to save their lives, kind of people. And those kind of people, dont really need all the foo foo stuff that Lite has to offer. If the price came down to say $345 and you get a free beer voucher, maybe it'd be a closer battle.*edit* And if you consider the people going for this low level tuning, the MAF would work just fine, no need for SD. So you factor in the required MAP sensor and AIT sensor to even run Jak in the first place, it brings the pricing closer. But if the Lite guy goes SD, then its back to square one with saving the $230 going Jak.*edit*

But those that want more, ecu controled boost, on the fly map switching, 40~50+psi of boost tuning, the whole shebang.
$545 Link Full vs $374 for Werewolf and Ostrich.
$151 dollars is easier to swallow granted the features, logging and simplicity. Link's Logging alone is worth the $150 in my eyes. The $0.15 is the boost control, $0.35 the fly map switch to have 2 maps to switch without having to pull out the laptop, power it up, plug it in load the software, load the map. $0.25 is the consistancy of the system, $0.20 is all the other misc features/options, and $0.05 is what they are paying me for each person I convert to DSMlinkianity, going door to door preaching the gospel of DSMlink and showing people to open their heart to Thomas.

 

[eclipsh]

So I did a little poking around on the DS-MAP site this afternoon and found some stuff about how Jackal is using the IAT sensor. It looks like it functions as a multiplyer in 10 degree increments. Given that the ideal gas law used to do the actual airflow is based on absolute zero (add 459 to the temp), the percentage difference between 50 and 60*F is 3.6%. Since air density doesn't change that much with so small a difference I think the breakdown is probably fine. I don't know how frequently that temperature data is updated in the calculations though. I do know the heat soaked sensor at start up goes away after a bit so it must be refreshed somewhat regularly.

 

[pneumo]

To reduce the hot start problem, just put the IAT sensor low in the engine bay. The intercooler outlet is a good spot. If you put the IAT next to the throttle body it'll heat soak easily when a hot engine is shut down.

 

[Sam@RRE]

My AIT died using at one point due to spraying water/meth at it. Car ran spot on and I didn't even notice it ws dead till one day for whatever reason decided to pay attention to AIT's because the logged ignition timing and what was denoted didnt match up and realized ait's was -70F. AFR's were still consistant, granted Link uses a combination of AIT and Coolant temp data to factor in air density. Possibly it defaulted to the coolant temps only once it noticed a -70* ait error. I'll run that by Tom and see if Link has an error default. I dont know why my AFR's werent effected but timing was.
Piled through logs a few months back, and it was dead for several months. Ran several 12.0 passes on my DD with the thing dead.

 

[Kapok6]

To reduce the hot start problem, just put the IAT sensor low in the engine bay. The intercooler outlet is a good spot. If you put the IAT next to the throttle body it'll heat soak easily when a hot engine is shut down.

Adjusting the IAT enrichment helped me combat heatsoak.

 

[big_d]

Adjusting the IAT enrichment helped me combat heatsoak.

Same here. No problems after tweaking the IAT comp table. Good points Sam, thanks for sharing.

 

[airmail96]

Yup I think there have been a couple of people on the forum that have done that, I remember one person going pretty in-depth on it.

 

[91stocker]

I never had a problem after installing the magnus heat barrier gasket and fiav delete. Tb stays nice and cool, well cooler .

 

[pneumo]

I'm glad the IAT adjustments are working for you guys. FYI a bad hot start issue is when the IAT is heatsoaked and showing hot intake temps when the air going into the engine is actually cool. Dense air needs more fuel, so the car runs lean until the IAT cools down, which usually takes a minute or two.

Here's a post I submitted 1/24/2010

Yahoo! Groups

Hi all,
I thought I'd share my findings while I was looking at the hot start section of our ecu.
 To summarize, hot start code adds a certain ammount to the fuel calculations, 
it's triggered by either air temps hotter than the preset temp, or engine coolant 
temp hotter than preset temp.  Hot start enrichment is gradually reduced by a
 timer. This might be helpful for those of you who have bypassed the FPR
 solenoid, or who's air temp sensor tends to get heatsoaked by a hot engine bay
 like my car.  Hot air is less dense so I'm seeing very lean AF ratios until the IAT
 sensor cools down.   
 
- IAT threshold located at D94B/ 594B The stock value is $3A or 60*C/140*F
- ECT threshold located at D951/ 5951 The stock value is $18 or 93*C/ 199*F
- Hot start fuel adder located at D92B/ 592B The stock value is $30 which is added to stoich ($80) for a target AF ratio of 10.7:1
That's $30+$80 = $B0, convert to deci (176) then divide 1881.6 by 176 = 10.69
- Hot start timer located at D95E/ 595E The stock value is $F0. This is a 2Hz timer, so F0 Hex = 240 deci /2 = 120 seconds. 
After starting the timer begins counting.  The hot start adder ($30) is reduced by the ammount of time already counted down.
  Hot start enrichment is zero when the timer reaches zero.
HTH
 
Dave W.

A few days later I found a small error in that post. Both IAT and ECT need to be above the thresholds to trigger hot start enrichment. So it's an AND function, not an OR function.

When DS-MAP first started it was an open source extension of the DSM-ECU list. File sharing and free thinking was encouraged. Members could add code changes anytime and share it with others. That was gradually squashed to the point where Jackal is encrypted. Only one person can change Jackal now, and he doesn't have a DSM.


Personally I just want to share my findings with the general DSM community for the benefit of the entire DSM community, not just one misguided person. Keep your cars running good, keep them on the road, and make them faster, too!

 

[Sam@RRE]

Whatever happened to the OP?

 

[GSLENK]

I got lost. sorry to dissapoint, but i got dsmlink v3 lite with socketed ecu for $200. local pickup. beats the hell outta ostrich at that price point

I was really optimistic about jackal. And I learned more than I could understand yet. I guess I had a good thread title.