Altered Mental Status (1G AWD 5spd)

[Anfurnyy]

Here is your SD table - and in the idle area you are pulling out a LOT of fuel. Do you really want to pull fuel here? I think this is working against your global dead times. I know your cams are messing with you, but I would try a stock VE table to dial in Global dead time.

I will say this is my fault. I know idle VE is low but with his global fuel and dead time where it was this is what put his AirflowPerRev roughly in line with where it needed to be and allow his car to at least idle a little bit.
Obviously idle VE will change when he gets his global fuel figured out with a WOT pull but it's hard to even get to that point when the car won't idle right.

 

[CrackedDSM]

I will say this is my fault. I know idle VE is low but with his global fuel and dead time where it was this is what put his AirflowPerRev roughly in line with where it needed to be and allow his car to at least idle a little bit.
Obviously idle VE will change when he gets his global fuel figured out with a WOT pull but it's hard to even get to that point when the car won't idle right.

Yeah, idle VE has to be that low honestly. Because if idle VE isn't that low deadtimes need to be in the negative 200 range which makes throttle response and everywhere but idle absolute dog sh*t. I think a combination of VE and deadtimes will be the key to success. Scott Laird described it as "if you solely use VE it's going like 30, 30, 30, suddenly 60. You're shoving fuel down its throat, where as using deadtime makes it fuel more gradually" which makes sense.


But yeah, please feel free to hit me with an updated VE map(anyone) along with deadtime settings you think will work best. I just know I really like how it idles with VE Adjust and high deadtimes, but I am such a ridiculous inept noob at this stuff that I'll do whatever anyone asks.

Doing the check boxes and putting it back in closed loop though has made significant...significant progress. Noticeably better.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Just a heads up, keep your eyes on the Map Sensor for me fellas. As I'm going through the log it shows me random like millisecond bursts where the MAP sensor is reading -15/-16 then a millisecond later it's back to -6/-8. Loose connection or dying MAP sensor?

 

[Anfurnyy]

Yeah, idle VE has to be that low honestly. Because if idle VE isn't that low deadtimes need to be in the negative 200 range which makes throttle response and everywhere but idle absolute dog sh*t. I think a combination of VE and deadtimes will be the key to success. Scott Laird described it as "if you solely use VE it's going like 30, 30, 30, suddenly 60. You're shoving fuel down its throat, where as using deadtime makes it fuel more gradually" which makes sense.


But yeah, please feel free to hit me with an updated VE map(anyone) along with deadtime settings you think will work best. I just know I really like how it idles with VE Adjust and high deadtimes, but I am such a ridiculous inept noob at this stuff that I'll do whatever anyone asks.

Doing the check boxes and putting it back in closed loop though has made significant...significant progress. Noticeably better.

Glad it's going in the right direction finally, hopefully.
Really gotta work on getting your global fuel figured out by doing that wot @ 5500. Then that should help figure out realistic VE for idle and the rest of the table.

Global dead time only effect idle, and basically doesn't effect anything else.
So basically use WOT to get global fuel where it needs to be (100% at 5500-6k) and then I THINK use idle VE to get your AirflowPerRev where it needs to be and then use global dead time to get your afr where it needs to be.
Then you should be able to start driving and updating the VE table and other little odds and ends like the TipIn and what not.

One of the more senior guys can hopefully either verify that or correct it.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Glad it's going in the right direction finally, hopefully.
Really gotta work on getting your global fuel figured out by doing that wot @ 5500. Then that should help figure out realistic VE for idle and the rest of the table.

Global dead time only effect idle, and basically doesn't effect anything else.
So basically use WOT to get global fuel where it needs to be (100% at 5500-6k) and then I THINK use idle VE to get your AirflowPerRev where it needs to be and then use global dead time to get your afr where it needs to be.
Then you should be able to start driving and updating the VE table and other little odds and ends like the TipIn and what not.

One of the more senior guys can hopefully either verify that or correct it.

That's what people tell me and I believe that's how its supposed to be...but that isn't the case with my setup. And I can prove it honestly with logs and a video.

If I change absolutely nothing and take deadtime away I have to go down to like -200 or so to get AFRest and Wideband to match at idle...and after that throttle input of any kind is noticeably worse with bogging and hesitation.


I feel like hooking a vacuum pump on a solenoid to the FPR so that it pulls fuel at idle and idles at stoich, but when any throttle input is given it cuts it off/puts it back to normal. Because with global at -57.0% and deadtimes at 275 and the stock VE table, I could 100% drive the car. It just wont idle and I'm scared it's washing the cylinders with fuel because it's so rich at idle.

 

[Justin DuBois]

Everybody better make sure their inbox is clear and has space for an extra picture...


Because changing nothing but what @Justin DuBois said has made significant progress. The car started and idled, and could almost...almost be revved w/ WOT. It bogs under WOT like usual, but blipping the throttle is significantly more responsive. I think with a few more tweaks, the car may actually be able to be driven soon!

Logs below w/ descriptive titles. Honestly the car seems to like the VE Adjust with no deadtime maps/settings better. But I'm open to whatever the seasoned vets think looks better. As always, adjust what you see and post it back up so I can try it. This is the first time that I feel real genuine progress has been made though.

-200 dead time is not a bad number. I'd use that with the smoother VE table. Smooth VE table transitions are closer to the truth of volumetric efficiency. If you have to bend the VE table alot, there is likely some physical or sensor issue. IE: My "fake" GM3bar map sensor had a bad bias in the 5k-5.5k area. My VE table was being bent from 5K - 98 to 5.5K - 91 which was causing knock to be introduced, and a weird separation in BoostEST vs MAP values. Long way of saying - VE should be smooth.

 

[CrackedDSM]

To maybe help everyone with what I'm talking about, I just took a video. I'm also gonna attach the exact log from this video so you can see the settings and the OEM VE map.




This thing could 150% be driven with this map all day, but that rich idle makes me so nervous about the sub 200 mile cylinder walls.

Anyway! The log.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Okay, so after some thinking I tried to drive it on the map above with a lot of deadtime and stock VE map.


It didn't go well...but honestly I feel like that's a good thing? It helps to know that it isn't just some perfect tune and only idle is messed up. The entire VE map is screwed. This helps my mental state SO MUCH you have no idea. It won't really go into boost, and leans out quite a lot the closer to 0 the MAP sensor gets.

But yeah, here's the log for those interested.

 

[Anfurnyy]

Okay, so after some thinking I tried to drive it on the map above with a lot of deadtime and stock VE map.


It didn't go well...but honestly I feel like that's a good thing? It helps to know that it isn't just some perfect tune and only idle is messed up. The entire VE map is screwed. This helps my mental state SO MUCH you have no idea. It won't really go into boost, and leans out quite a lot the closer to 0 the MAP sensor gets.

But yeah, here's the log for those interested.

Don't know what the hell is going on here.. you blipped it and your MAP sensor reads -20inhg?

Kinda starting to think you got maybe a bad map sensor or wiring?

Some places in the log it's removing 50% fuel and some it's adding.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Don't know what the hell is going on here.. you blipped it and your MAP sensor reads -20inhg?

Kinda starting to think you got maybe a bad map sensor or wiring?View attachment 746335

Some places in the log it's removing 50% fuel and some it's adding.

Yep. I'm about to pull the trigger on ECMTuning's SD cable. From day one Scott Laird has voiced concern for that non-ecmtuning SD cable, and I figured it seems to work fine. Now I'm doubting. It does this on both MAP sensors I have, but I can throw the other one in just in case to verify.


I'm beginning to think he's correct. The Narrowband voltage also consistently drops to like .02 when driving, like it's dying. Or it might be the MAP sensor coming unplugged/jostled for a split second and the tune cutting fuel because it's way in vacuum.

Progress, man. Progress.

 

[Anfurnyy]

Yep. I'm about to pull the trigger on ECMTuning's SD cable. From day one Scott Laird has voiced concern for that non-ecmtuning SD cable, and I figured it seems to work fine. Now I'm doubting. It does this on both MAP sensors I have, but I can throw the other one in just in case to verify.


I'm beginning to think he's correct. The Narrowband voltage also consistently drops to like .02 when driving, like it's dying. Or it might be the MAP sensor coming unplugged/jostled for a split second and the tune cutting fuel because it's way in vacuum.

Progress, man. Progress.

You can try to OHM the cable and see if there's some resistance or breaks in the cable. You've tried narrowband sim yet?

And your idle vacuum SEEMS low but that could be because the MAP sensor?

 

[Justin DuBois]

To maybe help everyone with what I'm talking about, I just took a video. I'm also gonna attach the exact log from this video so you can see the settings and the OEM VE map.




This thing could 150% be driven with this map all day, but that rich idle makes me so nervous about the sub 200 mile cylinder walls.

Anyway! The log.

Got it.
When it is idling on its own with closed loop, negative dead times, I assume you are getting 14.7 ish AFR.

When you punch in a bunch more fuel with a positive dead time, it goes RICH, and idles smoother. This is normal. Idle usually improves with rich AFR, but it is not where you want to be. If you were to wait long enough like that, the closed loop fuel trims would try and dial the fuel back out attempting to hold 14.7 ish AFR, and the smoothness would go away.

Global dead times are also impacted by this:

I don't use this myself - but you have shifted the graph to increase fuel. If you put this back to stock, where do the dead times end up?

Regardless of which of these you adjust - closed loop fuel trims will increase/decrease until AFR 14.7 is achieved in real time. If your engine sucks at idle burning 14.7 - I would look at the injector spray pattern quality at your given base fuel pressure, or perhaps your cam timing needs to be adjusted to pull a better vacuum.

 

[CrackedDSM]

You can try to OHM the cable and see if there's some resistance or breaks in the cable. You've tried narrowband sim yet?

And your idle vacuum SEEMS low but that could be because the MAP sensor?

The idle vacuum seems to be normal from what I've researched for these terrible ass BC272 cams that aren't degreed. They're just installed straight up. Because the AEM boost gauge matches the map sensor for vacuum, the AFPR also responds equally to if it had -8ish.


And haven't tried narrowband sim. That'll be the next step once I'm back from grocery shopping. What should the normal resistance or OHM's be? I have a multimeter(and I'm not afraid to use it!).

Got it.
When it is idling on its own with closed loop, negative dead times, I assume you are getting 14.7 ish AFR.

When you punch in a bunch more fuel with a positive dead time, it goes RICH, and idles smoother. This is normal. Idle usually improved with rich AFR, but it is not where you want to be. If you were to wait long enough like that, the closed loop fuel trims would try and dial the fuel back out attempting to hold 14.7 ish AFR, and the smoothness would go away.

Global dead times are also impacted by this:
View attachment 746334
I don't use this myself - but you have shifted the graph to increase fuel. If you put this back to stock, where do the dead times end up?

Regardless of which of these you adjust - closed loop fuel trims will increase/decrease until AFR 14.7 is achieved in real time. If your engine sucks at idle burning 14.7 - I would look at the injector spray pattern quality at your given base fuel pressure, or perhaps your cam timing needs to be adjusted to pull a better vacuum.

Got it! That makes sense. It'll be the next thing I try is using stock deadtimes and only using global deadtimes.

I really feel like we're narrowing it down. The injectors are 100% suspect. The cam timing is dead on at 5* BTDC verified with a timing light, and mechanical timing is also verified. I'm 150% sure getting these BC272s dialed in or degreed would help, but that's way beyond my current skillset if I'm honest.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

You might gain 5-10hp, at the most, degreeing in the cams. You are going the right direction just keep playing

 

[Anfurnyy]

Global dead times are also impacted by this:

I don't use this myself - but you have shifted the graph to increase fuel. If you put this back to stock, where do the dead times end up?

You don't adjust your injector dead time vs voltage?

 

[Justin DuBois]

You don't adjust your injector dead time vs voltage?

No, I do not - the stock voltage table works for me. I use global dead time.

 

[Anfurnyy]

No, I do not - the stock voltage table works for me. I use global dead time.

I've never heard of that honestly but i don't see why that wouldn't work. Any issues if you don't have lower voltage?

 

[Justin DuBois]

I've never heard of that honestly but i don't see why that wouldn't work. Any issues if you don't have lower voltage?

If you have a good voltage regulator, and a strong battery, only one value from this table will be applied, and then global dead time is applied on top of that.

To build this table practically, you would need to control the voltage to the engine, let it idle, and at each point on the curve - dial in a dead time that achieves 14.7 AFR. Low voltage affects all kinds of components - from the fuel pump pressure, to the injector coil responsiveness, to the heater coils in the O2 sensors, and this table gives control across the range. I've never been in a position to guess better then the default.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I'll chime in. Currently, on the new motor with bigger cams, i need to adjust the InjVoltageOffsets for when those twin Nascar Spal fans come on. It effects my tune and makes it rich (I think, I need to look at the log again).
Just some "things". I guess I'm saying that the voltage CAN effect the tune if it draws it into a different voltage load.
Marty

 

[CrackedDSM]

Briefly off topic, this is for @Anfurnyy specifically regarding LED lights. With all LED blinkers I was getting hyper flash. So I bought some $8 cheap resistor things and it fixed the hyper flash. I attached it with the included vampire clips but now I know it works I’ll solder them in for a better connection.

you can see the terrible vampire clips.

Video of them at work though.



There’s ever so briefly of a hyper flash at the very beginning but then they kick in and flash normally.

 

[Anfurnyy]

Briefly off topic, this is for @Anfurnyy specifically regarding LED lights. With all LED blinkers I was getting hyper flash. So I bought some $8 cheap resistor things and it fixed the hyper flash. I attached it with the included vampire clips but now I know it works I’ll solder them in for a better connection.

View attachment 746367

View attachment 746368

you can see the terrible vampire clips.

Video of them at work though.



There’s ever so briefly of a hyper flash at the very beginning but then they kick in and flash normally.

I'll definitely have to consider those. I assume with all 4 LED there's just not enough resistance in the power.

 

[CrackedDSM]

I'll definitely have to consider those. I assume with all 4 LED there's just not enough resistance in the power.

I’m not an electrical engineer but that’s my guess. Because only one on the fronts was enough to make a difference. If I put one on the rears it’d probably blink even slower.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Well, tomorrow is my last day to work on it. No one got back to me today on Facebook that said they would help, so not a whole lot of progress today. I admit, it makes me a little sad. I get people have a life outside of facebook, but it sucks when you get told "yeah I'll help you tomorrow" and then just get ghosted. Don't tell me a day somethings gonna happen and then flake. Just be honest and say "no idea, hit me up tomorrow and we'll see if I have time".


100% thankful for all you guys today here that helped.


But depending on how tomorrow goes, I may just throw the MAF back on the car bad or not. So I can drive the car again. It sucks just seeing it sit there and being unable to enjoy boost weather outside. Could always take it to work and swap stuff there and mess with it in the bay.

Either way. Progress has stopped for the day. Can't start the car after dark so.

Hopefully the progress continues tomorrow and I can actually drive the car on speed density. If not though, the MAF is gonna go back on and I'll just slowly tweak on it like I've been doing. I'm leaving the BOV vented though and just using idle air clamp. IDGAF. Lol.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Added an 8mm(or is it 10mm?) hose port on my MAF intake tube so I can run my catch-can. I've been meaning to do that but never wanted to completely pull the intake tube off to do it. So that's cool. Debating painting it silver or something that matches the other pipes a little better than solid red, but we'll see.

 

[Jdm07j]

Just read the entire build thread from beginning to end today. Really have enjoyed the progress you made. Keep it up! Hope you get this SD thing figured out. I’m at a similar stage as well (not doing SD yet) tuning wise.