850cc injectors with e85 ???

[superorange]

I am wondering how much boost i could run on e85 with 850cc injectors, with a fp18g tubo. I have a 255 fuel pump, fpr, dsm link, and basic exhaust, and a front mount setup. I have a eagle/weisco combo with arp studs. just wondering how much boost i can run on e85 with 850cc injectors? Would i be holding myself back a lot by not getting bigger injectors? i got the 850's for free so i was just going to use them. I also have 550cc injectors that are in the car now that are coming out with the 16g this week.

 

[e85_4g63]

you really don't want to run e85 on less than 1450cc injectors. Now I'd sell those puny 850's and step up to the Injector Dynamics 1000cc.

You just contradicted yourself.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

You just contradicted yourself.

That's sad, yet funny.

I'm on a small turbo so results may vary but here are my numbers with E85 on 850 inectors. At 20psi on a 14b flowing 30 lbs/min with E85 through FIC 850 injectors with an AFR of 12.2 at WOT my IDC' are right around 60%.

 

[donniekak]

Why not just look at a chart? With more fuel pressure they will support even more. There is also a user on here that dyno'd low 400's with 750's and e85.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/253452-e85-injector-max-lb-min-calculations.html

 

[Doubleot]

I'd still like to see one of your WOT logs...

 

[superorange]

I would like to see some logs on some of these too

 

[donniekak]

Better than a log. Here is member jrohner's dyno sheet, on e85, and only 750cc injectors.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[Doubleot]

That's not better then a log, Actually it means nothing.

Plus I asked for one of YOUR logs since you claim to run 850s on e85 with 32psi.

 

[91stocker]

That's not better then a log, Actually it means nothing.

Plus I asked for one of YOUR logs since you claim to run 850s on e85 with 32psi.

psi means nothing, 32psi spike on a 14b wouldnt be shit

 

[donniekak]

That's not better then a log, Actually it means nothing.

Plus I asked for one of YOUR logs since you claim to run 850s on e85 with 32psi.

How does that mean nothing? 400+whp on 750's and e85. I don't have any logs handy as the only logs i've taken on my car are on a palm that gets deleted everytime the batteries die.

I don't see the purpose of me lying anyway. If you want confirmation you could simply ask the 20-30 locals that have ridden in my car.

At 3 bar of rail pressure, 850cc injectors flow enough to create a 12:1 afr (gas scale) at almost 50 lbs/min of airflow.

 

[Doubleot]

You are throwing around peoples dyno sheet's like they are your's. I'm not calling you a liar I'm simply asking for proof that you are running E85 on 850cc injectors.

I'm sure it can be done, Safely, is another question that is yet to be answered.

A local ran some 850's but he was seeing 100% IDC which is terrible for the fuel system.

Typical rule of thumb is to keep your IDC at or below 90% so you don't over run the injectors and/or fuel system.

 

[donniekak]

You are throwing around peoples dyno sheet's like they are your's. I'm not calling you a liar I'm simply asking for proof that you are running E85 on 850cc injectors.

I'm sure it can be done, Safely, is another question that is yet to be answered.

A local ran some 850's but he was seeing 100% IDC which is terrible for the fuel system.

Typical rule of thumb is to keep your IDC at or below 90% so you don't over run the injectors and/or fuel system.

On a 1g stock fuel pressure is 36.5 psi, i run 47psi. This makes the injectors operate as if they are 22% larger than at stock fuel pressure.

The problem can be finding a pump to supply enough volume at that high of a pressure. A walbro hp255 can be modified to keep up by modding the relief valve. It's very easy to run out of pump before injector. If the idc's are under 100% and adding fuel does nothing to the afr's the pump is the issue.

 

[bastarddsm]

Do you even read what you post?...



Yeah so you think since you've been running E85 for a long time you're the site guru? And I love this quote "who cares what the number is"? Are you kidding? Just stop giving this "advice."

OP it's just a few simple match calculations to figure this out and I think someone posted some links to it. Better to research this yourself so you don't damage your car by listening to some of the people on here.

Yes in fact I am a site guru. But I'd like to know where you got the 18g at that can flow the 50+lb/min its gonna take to use up those 850's.

You are throwing around peoples dyno sheet's like they are your's. I'm not calling you a liar I'm simply asking for proof that you are running E85 on 850cc injectors.

I'm sure it can be done, Safely, is another question that is yet to be answered.

A local ran some 850's but he was seeing 100% IDC which is terrible for the fuel system.

Typical rule of thumb is to keep your IDC at or below 90% so you don't over run the injectors and/or fuel system.

Hi, do you see the trap speed under my name? That was done on 750s in a full weight awd. That's 450+whp, more than a 18g is gonna make. I was logging 45lb/min and 12:1 afrs. I'd say 850s are plenty big enough for an 18g. You are going off straight heresay on everything you post. Then again what do I know; it's not like I'm finishing up.a PhD in powertrain engineering or anything.

 

[Doubleot]

All the research I've done about running E85 said it needs at least 1000cc injectors. Now, all of the reasearch I've done has been based on 2gs which are different then 1gs fuel systems. Its also mostly been done on the link forums which has a lot of credibilty compared to other sites.

Seems like nothing is getting resolved here. Good luck OP.

Sent From My Sidekick 4g, Because I can.

 

[GsxEcutioner]

Yes in fact I am a site guru. But I'd like to know where you got the 18g at that can flow the 50+lb/min its gonna take to use up those 850's.



Hi, do you see the trap speed under my name? That was done on 750s in a full weight awd. That's 450+whp, more than a 18g is gonna make. I was logging 45lb/min and 12:1 afrs. I'd say 850s are plenty big enough for an 18g. You are going off straight heresay on everything you post. Then again what do I know; it's not like I'm finishing up.a PhD in powertrain engineering or anything.

not to thread jack but if what your saying is true, does this mean I can run my small 16g on E-85 using my PTE 880cc injectors?
-Shane

 

[bastarddsm]

not to thread jack but if what your saying is true, does this mean I can run my small 16g on E-85 using my PTE 880cc injectors?
-Shane

Yes. I doubt you'll see much of 50% idc with them on a small16g.

All the research I've done about running E85 said it needs at least 1000cc injectors. Now, all of the reasearch I've done has been based on 2gs which are different then 1gs fuel systems. Its also mostly been done on the link forums which has a lot of credibilty compared to other sites.

Seems like nothing is getting resolved here. Good luck OP.

Sent From My Sidekick 4g, Because I can.

Hi, get a clue. Your research is extremely flawed. There is no minimum requirement of injector size to run a fuel. The injectors size is based on the amount of power you want to make.

I personally ran 110mph traps on a full weight 1g with a 16g on E85 and the stock 450's. I didn't have a single electronic tuning device on the car either.

The only real difference between a 1g and a 2g is the base fuel pressure. 1gs run 37 2gs run 43. Thats a 7% increase in flow for a 2g. So basically a 2g can support about 7% more airflow on the same size injector. Thats not shit. So what ever works on a 1g will work on a 2g.

 

[Doubleot]

What was your duty cycle on 450cc injectors with E85?

 

[Choch1]

I personally ran 110mph traps on a full weight 1g with a 16g on E85 and the stock 450's. I didn't have a single electronic tuning device on the car either.

So how did your car keep up with the demand for fuel, wouldn't the ECU be confused?...

 

[Black-Out]

Ok....I'm gonna say this and then ya'll can flame away but,

1. This can all be solved by calculating BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) simply by stating a horsepower goal in order to achieve your desired trap speed..(try about 350 all wheel horsepower) and then adding %30 to the injector size for PROPERLY running E85.......

2. Pressure Ratio (manifold pressure) should be totally ignored as flow at any said pressure ratio can be completely different from turbo to turbo. Example: a T25 at 15 psi and a 30R at 15 psi don't flow near the same...manifold pressure is completely irrelevant without knowing approximate flow capability from the turbo...the only exception to this is if everyone commenting is running the exact same turbo which I highly doubt.....

3.IDC shouldn't exceed %85 because the injector begins to run out of time to close which negatively effects the spray pattern which can cause the fuel to begin collecting on the intake runners....

4.Fuel pressure shouldn't be increased much beyond the %10 range for the exact same negative effects as stated above...(pintle failure is an ugly thing on an injector...) bumping fuel pressure is a band-aid for a major fueling issue in terms of proper spray patterns and atomization....some may not agree on this but it is fact..... The proper way to deliver the appropriate amount of fuel is by extending the IDC not by just raising fuel pressure which will add fuel everywhere across the map.....

5. Just because someone sets their car up with out using the proper devices (dsm link,aem,mega squirt,HKS F-Con V-Pro, Hell even an Apexi AFC), doesn't make it better than doing things the safe way....

I'm not trying to be an ass here,so bear with me....But telling some one you ran 450cc injectors on a 16g with E85 and no electronic tuning devices is not a sound bit of bragging rights to pass along to anyone here on the forums because it can potentially cause damage someones car. You may have done it, but what if his set up is different from yours, and the car blows up because its leaning out (and it would). You may have done it and gotten away with it, but what if something as simple as being located higher above sea level allowed your car to pull of this mysterious feat while the rest of us poor saps with denser air may suffer from a lean run condition,which would burn valves,fry pistons and empty bank accounts in the after math?

I'm just saying, when you make comments like that,with out posting all the data about your experience your leading people to possibly try things off of an invalidated view point, that can possibly end up badly for someone with an otherwise innocent, un-educated question about E85.....

To the OP I simply say this......Car makers don't randomly configure fuel system requirements to make the power figures their cars produce, they use scientific calculation through out the engineering process. Anytime you want to find out how much fuel you need for anything be it a V8 or a Turbocharged 4cylinder there is only one RELIABLE method to use to extract fuel requirements and that's finding a power goal, and then calculating BSFC.....you may end up with larger injectors but you'll end up with what you need to get the job done with IDC's no more than the ideal maximum of %85......that will ensure proper fuel system operation for years to come, not to mention better fuel economy, better oil life (from a more complete burn and a better balanced afr) and less carbon deposit build up over time.

William-

 

[bastarddsm]

What was your duty cycle on 450cc injectors with E85?

Don't know. Never cared to log it. I was running a $50 n/t engine who cares if I puked it. They were probably close to 100%

So how did your car keep up with the demand for fuel, wouldn't the ECU be confused?...

Actually it was really easy. The stock 1g fuel maps are really rich (9:1). And thats pretty close to the ~8:1 you want for E85. So I just installed a AFPR and cranked the base up to about 60psi. Now my 450's flowed like 570's, as far as the ecu sees it. I also hacked the maf to lean it out to about 13:1 at wot. I did have a WB on it for a while. Ya it idled shitty but who cares.

Ok....I'm gonna say this and then ya'll can flame away but,

3.IDC shouldn't exceed %85 because the injector begins to run out of time to close which negatively effects the spray pattern which can cause the fuel to begin collecting on the intake runners....

4.Fuel pressure shouldn't be increased much beyond the %10 range for the exact same negative effects as stated above...(pintle failure is an ugly thing on an injector...) bumping fuel pressure is a band-aid for a major fueling issue in terms of proper spray patterns and atomization....some may not agree on this but it is fact..... The proper way to deliver the appropriate amount of fuel is by extending the IDC not by just raising fuel pressure which will add fuel everywhere across the map.....

5. Just because someone sets their car up with out using the proper devices (dsm link,aem,mega squirt,HKS F-Con V-Pro, Hell even an Apexi AFC), doesn't make it better than doing things the safe way....

But telling some one you ran 450cc injectors on a 16g with E85 and no electronic tuning devices is not a sound bit of bragging rights to pass along to anyone here on the forums because it can potentially cause damage someones car. You may have done it, but what if his set up is different from yours, and the car blows up because its leaning out (and it would). You may have done it and gotten away with it, but what if something as simple as being located higher above sea level allowed your car to pull of this mysterious feat while the rest of us poor saps with denser air may suffer from a lean run condition,which would burn valves,fry pistons and empty bank accounts in the after math?

I'm just saying, when you make comments like that,with out posting all the data about your experience your leading people to possibly try things off of an invalidated view point, that can possibly end up badly for someone with an otherwise innocent, un-educated question about E85.....

So nice of you to chime in, but I must ask these questions:
1. What is your backround that allows you to make these statements. Surely it is more than just reading bits an pieces from the internet.
2. Have you ever even run E85? Does your car make more than twice the power it did stock?
3. Do you realize that modding a car isn't an exact science, and all users should be well aware of the risk they are taking.

Now on to your comments.

3. Wrong. Technically Idc's shouldn't exceed 85% because the injector flow per unit of pulse width looses it's linearity. Meaning on a 450cc injector every %dc adds 1cc/min to the flow, but once you get to 85% it falls to say like .3cc/min. Unfortunately you still can't make a blanket statement like that because every injector is different.
Take an old bosch 160lb injector, at around 70%dc on a 60hz square wave the flow becomes massively nonlinear. On top of that the pintle and seat deteriorates rapid with use of liquid fuel. That tidbit of information comes right from a bosch engineer in the motorsports divison.
Now a newer denso injector like one used in a EVO, they remain linear to much higher duty cycles. On the order of 95% actually.
But in the end it doesn't matter if the flow becomes nonlinear and you've tuned for it. Remember that the IDC is more dependent on the RPM than the actual fuel requirement. That makes it pretty easy to tune for, especially when your VE is falling off, and the fuel requirement is plummeting anyway.

Finally the real reason you shouldn't run your injectors past 80% is to reduce electrical failures. Not becuase of fuel issues. The thought was that the increased current flow from having the injectors go static could cause the coils and driver transistors to burn out. My latest setup has pretty much negated that theory.

Finally the whole fuel collecting in the intake runners is bunk too. I hope you realize that at WOT your spraying on a closed intake valve for a bunch of time anyway. Even if your IDC'S are low. At wot the ecu goes into batch fire mode.

4. Your being to close minded. You bump the fuel pressure ( which helps atomization by the way) to increase the size of your injectors. Then you increase your global to compensate.

5. I never suggested that anyone copy my results. Its sketchy enough that any who cares to try it deserves what they get. Honestly, you could go way faster with race gas and a hacked maf than I did. I did it for power on the street, and I knocked down 22mpg like that too! I really added that bit of data to illustrate the point that you don't need huge injectors to run E85. In fact, if your trying to make big power I think you could make the same power on 93 and E85 on the same size injector. I feel that the fuel requirements are actually damn close.

 

[Black-Out]

So nice of you to chime in, but I must ask these questions:
1. What is your backround that allows you to make these statements. Surely it is more than just reading bits an pieces from the internet


No it's not just bits and pieces from the internet....I been an automotive technician for years,starting my carreer at Subaru becoming a master tech then going to Porsche and then working at two different performance shops before working for my self....I've actually been working on cars - and racing them for years....


2. Have you ever even run E85? Does your car make more than twice the power it did stock?


I've set up many cars in my time for customers running E85....The perfomance shops I worked at had an awd chassis dyno...But it doesn't matter if my personal cars made 4 times more power or stock out put I've been around,built, and been on the dyno when E85 swaps have been done.....


3. Do you realize that modding a car isn't an exact science, and all users should be well aware of the risk they are taking.


I can't agree with this, as certain things not taken into account in building a set up, will not yield the desired results.... If what you say were true BMW's M devision, AMG, STI, Rally Art, Cosworth, ect wouldn't waste the amount of time, money, knowledge to produce reliable increases in performance results on production cars. They use a great deal of flow research, and many other hard calculated facts to come to a conclusion that doing X will provide the desired outcome for x amount of power output reliably....They don't hap hazardly come to a conclusion about modification....the same principles apply on the street

4. Your being to close minded. You bump the fuel pressure ( which helps atomization by the way) to increase the size of your injectors. Then you increase your global to compensate.

Maybe so but beyond a certain point the injector spray pattern will change and volume will be effected negatively as volume and pressure are directly related.....as pressure goes up volume, eventually goes down...This is just the physics behind it and nothing more....And as far as the fuel atomization issues within the runner being bunk I can't agree with that either, I do realize that after a certain point on ceratin cars they run batch fire but that doesn't apply to every car.....there fore maybe you've proved a point with this particular case but this can't be painted with that broad a brush...I do realize how ever that fuel injector improvements in mechanical controls have more than impacted the tuning scene and these are things I hadn't taken into account when I initially responded....Point taken...


5. I never suggested that anyone copy my results. Its sketchy enough that any who cares to try it deserves what they get. Honestly, you could go way faster with race gas and a hacked maf than I did. I did it for power on the street, and I knocked down 22mpg like that too! I really added that bit of data to illustrate the point that you don't need huge injectors to run E85. In fact, if your trying to make big power I think you could make the same power on 93 and E85 on the same size injector. I feel that the fuel requirements are actually damn close.


I never suggested that you did either I'm simply saying be careful because there are plenty of people out there who take what they get off the net and hold it as un waivering fact....something that can lead to alot of headache in the long run for said person that is all.....

Finally the real reason you shouldn't run your injectors past 80% is to reduce electrical failures. Not becuase of fuel issues. The thought was that the increased current flow from having the injectors go static could cause the coils and driver transistors to burn out. My latest setup has pretty much negated that theory.

How? are you overdriving your current injectors at %100 IDC just to see if the computer is good enough to take it?....Why would you subject your electronics to such treatment? I'm sure you already know this but,the longer the pulsewidth the more current draw you impose on the injector drivers which in turn subjects the transistors to thermal runaway...... once you get to that point the transistors will continue to bias current through the collector and emitter despite the base being cut off from voltage supply (which turns the transistor off) once that happens you let the magic smoke out..... Why do this just to run smaller injectors when 9 out of 10 times the injectors between 850-1000 and 1100-1400 and 1500-2200 cost the same? It just seems point less cause if your doing it to save a buck it's not worth it IMHO....
Again not trying to be an ass but just questioning if budgetary restriction is the motive for compromising to get to the holy grail of time slips...My close mindedness is simply being around for a while and seeing what works and what hasn't in my own personal experiances......

I'm at work now gotta get back at it but I'll respond more later...


William-

 

[superorange]

welp looks like black out came in here and OWNED . Thanks though it is appreciated. I'm at least getting 1000cc injectors or bigger though.

 

[gofer]

RESOLVED. The OP got their answer, please don't turn this thread into a pissing match. I'm not saying that anyone of you posting in here is right or wrong but without logs its just hearsay and can't be validated.

Plugging the numbers into the equation injector size x 0.67 = injector size on E85 then (450/injector size on E85) - 1 gets injector globals close, but never perfect, from MY experience tuning.

Once again, don't turn this into a pissing match because you'll just get the thread closed. Please fill it with all your knowledge and experience because we're all here to learn.

 

[Black-Out]

RESOLVED. The OP got their answer, please don't turn this thread into a pissing match. I'm not saying that anyone of you posting in here is right or wrong but without logs its just hearsay and can't be validated.

Plugging the numbers into the equation injector size x 0.67 = injector size on E85 then (450/injector size on E85) - 1 gets injector globals close, but never perfect, from MY experience tuning.

Once again, don't turn this into a pissing match because you'll just get the thread closed. Please fill it with all your knowledge and experience because we're all here to learn.

Was never my intentions sir......I'm one who believes that if you stop learning then your soul dies a little. I genuinely want to know the reasons and my posts were not intended to inflict damage to any ones rep or have malice.
I just want to know facts and learn from others nothing more and if any one needs help along the way I try to lead them in the right direction. I was just concerned because with these type of topics there is so much to consider that can make results far different from what others may have experianced with their own cars......

To anyone veiwing this as well as BastardDSM if I offended you or anybody else and came across as harsh then I am sorry that was n ever my intention just wanted stimulating conversation and clearification on the subject.....

William-