Resolved 2G Engine Rebuild

[RubyEclipse]

Hello everyone! I just purchased my 1996 Eclipse GST a few months ago, had some issues with a few different things. Most recent was car was smoking and running very uneasy, so I decided to pull the engine. I am going to do a full engine rebuild-ish, I bought new wisco heads, still looking at the rods I want, if there’s anything anyone thinks I should buy and upgrade I would love help! Trying to push more power but not an insane amount seeing how I want this to be more of a daily but not quite. Thank you guys!

 

[RubyEclipse]

For those who regularly use ARP hardware: don’t ARP head studs have differing (higher) torque values than stock? Or is it user preference to go higher than stock spec?

I did a 30-60-90 sequence for them.

 

[19Eclipse90]

Did you re-torque after heat cycling the motor?

A second “easy” check after Hiroshi’s suggestion is to pull the valve cover and make sure all the nuts for those head studs are still tightened to the value you torqued them to.

 

[RubyEclipse]

Did you re-torque after heat cycling the motor?

A second “easy” check after Hiroshi’s suggestion is to pull the valve cover and make sure all the nuts for those head studs are still tightened to the value you torqued them to.

Got it, will do that first. Why not check and make sure, I don’t want to pull off the head if I don’t have too. I made sure the gasket lined up to where is should when I put it on too. I’m thinking the cause is from when I cleaned the block, I think the tool I used too off to much and made it uneven. I’m not for sure, but I do feel like I messed that up badly.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

For those who regularly use ARP hardware: don’t ARP head studs have differing (higher) torque values than stock? Or is it user preference to go higher than stock spec?

Yes, ARP states their torque values for their hardware in every box I've ever had, be it main studs, rod bolts, head studs, etc. I have always followed what was included with the hardware used.

 

[pauleyman]

I did a 30-60-90 sequence for them.

oh boy....that's not correct. That is for a stock torque to yield bolt.
Let's see who else chimes in here. Personally you have nothing to lose by trying to retorque the bolts. Did you clean the thread holes and bottom out the stud?

 

[RubyEclipse]

oh boy....that's not correct. That is for a stock torque to yield bolt.
Let's see who else chimes in here. Personally you have nothing to lose by trying to retorque the bolts. Did you clean the thread holes and bottom out the stud?

Yes I did, that is the torque I was told to do by everyone. Maybe they were thinking I was doing stock bolts.

 

[pauleyman]

Yes I did, that is the torque I was told to do by everyone. Maybe they were thinking I was doing stock bolts.

Even stock bolts there is a procedure and that alone isn't it.
Anyway....before we get too deep the check is easy. I would at least get a torque wrench if you don't have one and see what they are supposed to go to. If coolant and oil hasn't mixed you don't have much to lose. Worst case scenario is you have to do a gasket. I am curious why you think you messed up the surface?
Also my last question stands. Did you clean out the holes, typically with a bottoming tap or equivalent and then bottom out the studs?

 

[RubyEclipse]

Even stock bolts there is a procedure and that alone isn't it.
Anyway....before we get too deep the check is easy. I would at least get a torque wrench if you don't have one and see what they are supposed to go to. If coolant and oil hasn't mixed you don't have much to lose. Worst case scenario is you have to do a gasket. I am curious why you think you messed up the surface?
Also my last question stands. Did you clean out the holes, typically with a bottoming tap or equivalent and then bottom out the studs?

I did the procedure I googled and people said, and the one in my manual. They matched up to each other too. I do have a torque wrench and I’ll check it when I get home. I was saying the surface might be messed up from when I cleaned it, if I accidentally gouged into it too far or something close. I did clean out the holes with air and got the oil, coolant out. But I did not tap them, I was not told I should tap them, do I need too? I did bottom out the studs fully though.

 

[pauleyman]

I did the procedure I googled and people said, and the one in my manual. They matched up to each other too. I do have a torque wrench and I’ll check it when I get home. I was saying the surface might be messed up from when I cleaned it, if I accidentally gouged into it too far or something close. I did clean out the holes with air and got the oil, coolant out. But I did not tap them, I was not told I should tap them, do I need too? I did bottom out the studs fully though.

The tap is just to make sure they bottom out. You are likely correct people thought you were using stock bolts. You aren't so you needed to follow torque procedures for the studs. Had you installed stock bolts there is a torque sequence, then back off, then torque again and THEN 30 60 90. I don't have the torque numbers handy but it's not important for this discussion anyway. I also don't have the torque values for ARP studs in front of me but you should. Others may chime in.

 

[CKOPOCT]

The tap is just to make sure they bottom out. You are likely correct people thought you were using stock bolts. You aren't so you needed to follow torque procedures for the studs. Had you installed stock bolts there is a torque sequence, then back off, then torque again and THEN 30 60 90. I don't have the torque numbers handy but it's not important for this discussion anyway. I also don't have the torque values for ARP studs in front of me but you should. Others may chime in.

Here is the torque spec sheet from ARP for kit 407-4302 (turbo 4g63 head stud kit). ARP states studs should be hand tight. Nuts should be torqued in equal 3-step increments to 100 ft lbs. When I did mine I think I did 30, 70, 100. I used the supplied ARP assembly lube.

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[Justin DuBois]

The tap is just to make sure they bottom out. You are likely correct people thought you were using stock bolts. You aren't so you needed to follow torque procedures for the studs. Had you installed stock bolts there is a torque sequence, then back off, then torque again and THEN 30 60 90. I don't have the torque numbers handy but it's not important for this discussion anyway. I also don't have the torque values for ARP studs in front of me but you should. Others may chime in.

I'm not sure what "Custom Age 625" material is, but It is a good idea to make sure you are reading the correct instructions for the kit you are using.

ARP 11mm stud/nut and 11mm bolt shows 80ft/lb in the ARP instructions, 12mm studs tops out at 90 ft/lb.
If you tighten in sequence (center out) as described in the service manual, and use the 30-60-90 (run the sequence 3 times) then you have done it correctly.

Just use the right grease and max torque from the kit instructions for your kit.

IF it is a Head Gasket issue - the surface prep is key to getting a good seal. Also consider the head might be cracked or have a leak internally. I had two pressure tested at the machine shop that were both BAD.

 

[RubyEclipse]

I'm not sure what "Custom Age 625" material is, but It is a good idea to make sure you are reading the correct instructions for the kit you are using.

ARP 11mm stud/nut and 11mm bolt shows 80ft/lb in the ARP instructions, 12mm studs tops out at 90 ft/lb.
If you tighten in sequence (center out) as described in the service manual, and use the 30-60-90 (run the sequence 3 times) then you have done it correctly.

Just use the right grease and max torque from the kit instructions for your kit.

Then I had definitely done with right, I checked them all many times and made sure it was 90 ft lbs, so it’s not gonna be the bolts I’m thinking.

 

[DSMPT]

ARP torque spec is below. (In 3-steps)
- 90 ft-lbs for 12mm 6 bolt 8740
- 80 ft-lbs for 11mm 7 bolt 8740
- 100 ft-lbs for 11mm 7 bolt CA625

Please refer the link below.

Aftermarket Head Gasket/Head Bolts/Head Studs Part Numbers Catalogs for DSM

This post is for trying to make it easier to choose and order head gasket and head bolt/stud kit.Head gaskets : I excerpted only DSM section from manufacturer's catalogs. You can download it by clicking manufacturer's name below. ARP off the shelf head bolt/stud kits : Please refer the part...

www.dsmtuners.com

 

[CKOPOCT]

Then I had definitely done with right, I checked them all many times and made sure it was 90 ft lbs, so it’s not gonna be the bolts I’m thinking.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Even if 100 was the spec and you torqued to 90 in proper step and sequence, I don't think you ran the car long or hard enough to have this problem due to the head studs and nut torque... too soon.

 

[RubyEclipse]

I'm not sure what "Custom Age 625" material is, but It is a good idea to make sure you are reading the correct instructions for the kit you are using.

ARP 11mm stud/nut and 11mm bolt shows 80ft/lb in the ARP instructions, 12mm studs tops out at 90 ft/lb.
If you tighten in sequence (center out) as described in the service manual, and use the 30-60-90 (run the sequence 3 times) then you have done it correctly.

Just use the right grease and max torque from the kit instructions for your kit.

IF it is a Head Gasket issue - the surface prep is key to getting a good seal. Also consider the head might be cracked or have a leak internally. I had two pressure tested at the machine shop that were both BAD.

Should I take the head to get redone again? I just did it not even 2 weeks ago. I greased and torqued them.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Even if 100 was the spec and you torqued to 90 in proper step and sequence, I don't think you ran the car long or hard enough to have this problem due to the head studs and nut torque... too soon.

Yeah I didn’t even run it for 2-3 hours. I don’t even think it had been 1 hour run time. : (

 

[Justin DuBois]

Should I take the head to get redone again? I just did it not even 2 weeks ago. I greased and torqued them.

You should diagnose the issue with the engine assembled. Compression test, and if that is OK - then a cooling system pressure test. One or both of these should tell you something.

 

[pauleyman]

Then I had definitely done with right, I checked them all many times and made sure it was 90 ft lbs, so it’s not gonna be the bolts I’m thinking.

I thought you meant 30 60 90 DEGREES. Not ft lbs.

 

[RubyEclipse]

I thought you meant 30 60 90 DEGREES. Not ft lbs.

Ohh, no sorry. It was pounds.

 

[pauleyman]

I concur with the others. Test it as is. We dont know anything yet.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I concur with the above and believe you torqued the head correctly. I always have the head surfaced, ALWAYS, and check the iron block with a machinist rule (absolutely straight) and see if any feeler gauge will slip between the straight edge and the block. If both are flat (absolutely FLAT), you shouldn't have any sealing problems. Check the final torque 3 times to be absolutely sure.

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[RubyEclipse]

I concur with the above and believe you torqued the head correctly. I always have the head surfaced, ALWAYS, and check the iron block with a machinist rule (absolutely straight) and see if any feeler gauge will slip between the straight edge and the block. If both are flat (absolutely FLAT), you shouldn't have any sealing problems. Check the final torque 3 times to be absolutely sure.

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Does it have to be a machinist rule? I went to go buy one and they’re so expensive for like no reason! Was just going to buy a straight edge and feeler gauge somewhere else. Also, what if the block isn’t straight and a feeler gauge does go through? Then what happens?

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

In that case, I'd say the block got too warm at some time and it needs decked to true it up. That means it has to go to a machine shop. That's worse case scenario, but I have my blocks decked when I am rebuilding one, if I am not absolutely sure.
If a piece of iron got warm enough to make it warped, then the aluminum head on top will be the same way, not truly flat. I doubt you have a warped deck, but I don't know and you will just have to do your best, if you have to take the head back off. I hope you don't have too, but you'll be an ole pro at it if so.

 

[RubyEclipse]

In that case, I'd say the block got too warm at some time and it needs decked to true it up. That means it has to go to a machine shop. That's worse case scenario, but I have my blocks decked when I am rebuilding one, if I am not absolutely sure.

Oil came out looking decent to me, it really doesn’t look bad. Coolant I just realized I bought the wrong one before and mixed them, yellow and green. So I’m dumping out all that old green stuff and putting in the one it actually needs. Coolant in the car was full, the reservoir was empty. I have a compression tester and a combustion tester, with the leak dye. Anything else you guys think I should be doing?

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Car had pretty good compression, 165, 173, 163, and 175. What does this say? I googled and they’re supposed to be within 14 psi of each other and they definitely are. These are pretty good numbers for compression aren’t they? Also new code, p202, for fuel injector 2. What do I do with this injector? It’s probably the reason my car won’t turn over.

Ok so she’s now struggling again, won’t go above 4-5k rpm’s, even after flooring. Next; there’s a whistling like noise coming from the intake manifold area, a pretty loud one too. I’m thinking this might actually be not a head gasket but a fuel issue. I think me using the wrong coolant was a problem to begin with. But now with the code and it running badly I think I should get my injectors cleaned out at the very least. What do you guys think?

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[pauleyman]

Something isn't right still. I think there may be more than one problem.
Let's review. By now I assume you've flushed the coolant system and installed new. Any leaks? Does car idle? Let's put the code aside for a min.
Whistling noise is almost certainly an air leak. Did you install an intake manifold gasket? Are all hoses large and small present and tight? Particularly check the brake booster hose and anything behind the manifold.

Now for the code check wiring first. If the car was running fine befire all of this, fuel isn't likely a problem. A harness or connector (since you messed with those) is more likely. It's a 30 year old harness. Look it over and if there is nothing obvious might have to get out the meter and start checking wires.

Last item. I have to applaud you. I understand you are a young man. We're 20 pages in and what you're doing remind me of the no fear attitude my generation had. My friends and I jumped in feet first at 15 16 17 etc. Because we had to ( and we wanted to go fast).
Mad respect for you sir.

 

[RubyEclipse]

Something isn't right still. I think there may be more than one problem.
Let's review. By now I assume you've flushed the coolant system and installed new. Any leaks? Does car idle? Let's put the code aside for a min.
Whistling noise is almost certainly an air leak. Did you install an intake manifold gasket? Are all hoses large and small present and tight? Particularly check the brake booster hose and anything behind the manifold.

Now for the code check wiring first. If the car was running fine befire all of this, fuel isn't likely a problem. A harness or connector (since you messed with those) is more likely. It's a 30 year old harness. Look it over and if there is nothing obvious might have to get out the meter and start checking wires.

Last item. I have to applaud you. I understand you are a young man. We're 20 pages in and what you're doing remind me of the no fear attitude my generation had. My friends and I jumped in feet first at 15 16 17 etc. Because we had to ( and we wanted to go fast).
Mad respect for you sir.

Thank you so very much, that means absolutely everything coming from you. I’ve been trying my absolute hardest and I won’t lie it’s been hard to keep motivation but I’ve been doing it somehow. Been told by so many people to cut the losses and sell it but I just can’t, the car may suck but I’m attached to it and will make it run if it means another 3 grand.

Yes I just flushed the coolant system with fresh and new coolant, the right kind. I wasn’t seeing any leaks at all this time around. Car struggled to idle badly when I first started it today, it would die within 2 seconds of running, and every time I’d pressed the gas it died immediately. So after some more starts like 10 I pressed the gas and floored it, from there on out it would idle, after letting off the gas it dropped to about 500 RPMs and then slowly brought itself back to 1kish. I did install an intake manifold gasket to the head, besides that I have not touched the manifold. The hoses I can’t really tell, most of them to be honest I can’t even see. I don’t know what the brake booster hose is but I will find and check it.

The car was running ok ish, I did leave my fuel injectors out in the sun and whatever other debris for a few months, so it would not surprise me to have issues. I’m thinking since the code is that 1 fuel injector is stuck open it could make sense that it’s just dumping fuel and that’s where the smokes coming from, don’t you think? I will check the harness, it doesn’t look the best so I would not be surprised if that’s an issue. Again, thank you so so very much for everything and all of your help. Couldn’t have done one thing without you all.