Resolved 1990 W5M33 bearing replacement

[all black 4G63]

In the photo you will see the intermediate shaft assembly sits slightly higher than the input shaft assembly in the case. I believe this is causing too much clearance between the input shaft bearing race and the case which doesn't crush the solder at all when assembled.
I did replace both top and bottom intermediate shaft bearings, but only the top bearing on the input shaft. Would this be why I am seeing this uneven shaft height? also probably why the input shaft bearing race doesn't crush the solder after the case is torqued down and also why the solder DOES crush on the intermediate shaft?

Thanks

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[TheFlashDSM]

i legit had the same problem with my auto, it had a gear with a stubborn bearing just like yours. i beat it off destroying it, but in the flange (back side) is the part number, 2x new bearings where $20 from ebay

 

[pauleyman]

In the photo you will see the intermediate shaft assembly sits slightly higher than the input shaft assembly in the case. I believe this is causing too much clearance between the input shaft bearing race and the case which doesn't crush the solder at all when assembled.
I did replace both top and bottom intermediate shaft bearings, but only the top bearing on the input shaft. Would this be why I am seeing this uneven shaft height? also probably why the input shaft bearing race doesn't crush the solder after the case is torqued down and also why the solder DOES crush on the intermediate shaft?

Thanks

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I don't see what you're seeing. The bearings are on the same plane. What thickness solder?

 

[DSSA]

What you're looking at has no bearing on "real-world".

Even the picture seems to show it. The input shaft looks "somewhat" straight. The forks look similiar....

The intermediate shaft looks to be leaning towards the left of the picture, which would lean (pun intended) towards this photo being of no use as to what you are actually worried about....

Point is, without the adapter case on, and torqued down, this picture means nothing.

 

[all black 4G63]

I don't see what you're seeing. The bearings are on the same plane. What thickness solder?

I see what you mean I guess I didn’t pay attention to that. However, when I placed the .062” rosin core solder in the designated places per the service manual I did the intermediate shaft and input shaft bearings together and use the existing shim on the center diff because I did not replace that bearing or race. What happened was the intermediate shaft solder crushed, but the input shaft did not at all. Would you recommend doing them separately, by placing solder behind one bearing race and no shim or solder in the others???

 

[pauleyman]

Yes do them separately. You may also be careful if the solder is too thick or the wrong type it won't crush correctly and merely flex the bearing plate. I sometimes double check with a dial indictator and no solder.

 

[DSSA]

On another note, the solder method has been something I've only done once or three times over the years to confirm results. It kinda sucks in general, and Mitsu's transmission shimming from the factory showed that over the years.
There are other ways...and *MUCH* cheaper than this, as I've bought several over the years:
https://www.autotoolworld.com/Kent-Moore-J-34291-B-Shim-Setting-Gauge-_p_210296.html

 

[all black 4G63]

Yes do them separately. You may also be careful if the solder is too thick or the wrong type it won't crush correctly and merely flex the bearing plate. I sometimes double check with a dial indictator and no solder.

What and how exactly do you check with a dial indicator?

 

[pauleyman]

Well...do you know what a dial indicator is?

 

[twicks69]

Well, it is considerably cheaper to just use solder to measure the zero gap, considering that the input shaft, intermediate shaft, center differential and output pinion shaft are using tapered roller bearings and should be under bearing preload.
0.062" solder used for the input shaft, intermediate shaft, front diff
3/32" solder used for the center diff and output pinion shaft

The front differential uses roller bearings on the AWD and should be under ENDPLAY. The front differential for FWD models use tapered roller bearings and should be under PRELOAD.

If you want some details, look here - https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/t...-for-dsm-evo-1-3-gvr4-rvr-chariot-etc.542677/

 

[all black 4G63]

Well...do you know what a dial indicator is?

yes

Thanks for the info. I saw your page on shim thickness guide. My question is when performing the solder method individually, is solder placed behind one race only and nothing behind the others, no shim or solder?
i.e., place solder behind the input shaft and nothing but the race on the intermediate and center diff?

thanks, sorry for the ridiculous questions its just that when I placed solder behind the intermediate shaft bearing and input shaft bearing the input shaft solder did not crush at all. However it did when I did it solo with nothing behind the others.

Well, it is considerably cheaper to just use solder to measure the zero gap, considering that the input shaft, intermediate shaft, center differential and output pinion shaft are using tapered roller bearings and should be under bearing preload.
0.062" solder used for the input shaft, intermediate shaft, front diff
3/32" solder used for the center diff and output pinion shaft

The front differential uses roller bearings on the AWD and should be under ENDPLAY. The front differential for FWD models use tapered roller bearings and should be under PRELOAD.

If you want some details, look here - https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/t...-for-dsm-evo-1-3-gvr4-rvr-chariot-etc.542677/

 

[pauleyman]

I took a scrap chunk of steel and bolted it to the case. Mounted a dial Indictor on a mag base and measured play axially. I use a few prybars to push the shaft up. The measurements were very repeatable. With the solder method I do one at a time. No solder or shim on the others.

 

[all black 4G63]

I took a scrap chunk of steel and bolted it to the case. Mounted a dial Indictor on a mag base and measured play axially. I use a few prybars to push the shaft up. The measurements were very repeatable. With the solder method I do one at a time. No solder or shim on the others.

Thank you

It’s hard to understand why the solder doesn’t crush when doing all the bearings at once. This makes me think that when I do them individually and select the appropriate shim thickness the preload will not be correct when fully assembled l?

 

[pauleyman]

Thank you

It’s hard to understand why the solder doesn’t crush when doing all the bearings at once.

are the bearings new?
if so are you sure you seated the races completely?

This makes me think that when I do them individually and select the appropriate shim thickness the preload will not be correct when fully assembled l?

Why?

 

[all black 4G63]

are the bearings new?
if so are you sure you seated the races completely?

Why?

Because measuring individually give me a spec, but not when crushing the solder all together. Therefore, how would the bearings get the appropriate preload when all shims are in if the input shaft doesn’t crush the solder when the solder is under the others?
Yes new bearings except the lower input shaft

 

[CrackedDSM]

Sorry I can't help, but I'm curious as to why this is happening as well.

If you tighten everything down, the entire assembly, and put the case on it should crush solder on every surface you've put it on. If it's not crushing in one spot, with the entire assembly tightened down and torque, I'd also assume that one spot was a problem. Unless that one spot moves/is designed to slide up and down or something and you're measuring minimum tolerance.

Watching the thread for future knowledge. Good luck!

 

[pauleyman]

Because measuring individually give me a spec, but not when crushing the solder all together. Therefore, how would the bearings get the appropriate preload when all shims are in if the input shaft doesn’t crush the solder when the solder is under the others?
Yes new bearings except the lower input shaft

Something has to be wrong. Try the input shaft all by itself and see what happens.

 

[all black 4G63]

Something has to be wrong. Try the input shaft all by itself and see what happens.

It crushes fine by its self

 

[donniekak]

How did you install the bearings on the shafts?

 

[all black 4G63]

How did you install the bearings on the shafts?

I used the miller special tools and a press

 

[bastarddsm]

Make sure you have the right input race/bearing combo. There are two distinct ones, and the cup/cone is not compatible at all. If you try to mix/match it can do stuff like this.

Also make sure this isn't a trans previously done by another builder, I've seen some stuff out there. A few times where someone cut the bearing pocket deeper on the bell housing side to put a shim in there. I suspect it's an attempt to move the shaft and improve gear contact patterns.

 

[all black 4G63]

Make sure you have the right input race/bearing combo. There are two distinct ones, and the cup/cone is not compatible at all. If you try to mix/match it can do stuff like this.

Also make sure this isn't a trans previously done by another builder, I've seen some stuff out there. A few times where someone cut the bearing pocket deeper on the bell housing side to put a shim in there. I suspect it's an attempt to move the shaft and improve gear contact patterns.

Interesting there’s two different bearings/races available for this trans?

Anyone know if this 3rd hub slider is on the correct way?

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[twicks69]

Well the slider looks fine for orientation, the hub has an identification marking on it that you can only see with it disassembled. The dot on the hub would face 3rd gear and you would orient the oil groove in the proper direction for rotation to the oiling hole on the shaft. Your 3rd synchro is smoked. Have you already disassembled the gear cluster???

 

[all black 4G63]

Well the slider looks fine for orientation, the hub has an identification marking on it that you can only see with it disassembled. The dot on the hub would face 3rd gear and you would orient the oil groove in the proper direction for rotation to the oiling hole on the shaft. Your 3rd synchro is smoked. Have you already disassembled the gear cluster???

Thanks, yeah it’s all smoked. The slider doesn’t even lock in the gear the teeth are gone

 

[all black 4G63]

Hey I just wanted to make absolutely sure of something that's making me nervous. in the photo of I have circled the lips of the slider. 4th gear is on top and 3rd is on the bottom. Does the "taller" part of the slider face 3rd gear or 4th like the photo?

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