Where are the FWDs at????

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Do you remember what size nozzles you were using? Or water:fuel ratio?

The amount of power you guys picked up, with less boost was unreal.

 

[1qkfwd]

He's got the fuel cell mounted up front :hmm

But the battery, wiring, and meth kit are all in the trunk.

The setups nice and looks to make good power. But if the car can't hook in any gear it just makes the setup less impressive.

 

[habitatguy187]

Yeah missed those pics at first . I wonder how much that manifold/exhaust/turbo setup weighs? Aren't hx-52s like 50lbs haha?

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Well, it's a good thing I'm not looking to impress then I do appreciate your input though

It's not primarily a drag car that needs to come out of the hole in a hurry. It's meant to exceed 200mph at altitude on salt with steady throttle input.

It will be seeing the strip and mile tracks to get things sorted out though.

There is plenty of weight on the front, and the car is full interior too. Meth tank is only a gallon at this time.

My car will likely never see 9s, much like your car will more than likely never do 220+ on pavement.

If I get the itch to throw some 1000# springs in the back with traction bars, put the ass in the air and slap some 15x10s with 28" slicks and limiting straps on the front with skinnys in the rear.. it might be a different story.

Yeah missed those pics at first . I wonder how much that manifold/exhaust/turbo setup weighs? Aren't hx-52s like 50lbs haha?

Shipping weight on the turbo was ~60lbs, its not that heavy though.. the manifold, gates, dump tubes, downpipe etc weigh a ton all together.

 

[biglady112]

I do, but there are a few calculators out there to help you with your answer. Yours will be different than ours as you are running methonal and that car runs straight water per class rules.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I like how my hotside valving ended up red, and the coldside valve is blue

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New meats

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More nozzles!

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[coltboostin]

Meth?

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Meth?

Yessir.

Water or water/meth depending on the event.

Three nozzles total. 10gph at TB, 2gph pre turbo 2gph post turbo

 

[richard33]

Are you going to have slicks as well? Those drag radials aren't going to cut it

 

[1SloEvo]

those drag radials aren't going to cut it

this

 

[Pipnorcali]

Got my Hoosiers on 225/45/17 ....first race in Sunday if it doesnt rain

 

[coltboostin]

Yessir.

Water or water/meth depending on the event.

Three nozzles total. 10gph at TB, 2gph pre turbo 2gph post turbo

How much experience do you have spraying pre turbo? With 14 GPH total-what do you expect the change in AFR to be if you were 50/50?

 

[juanpac0]

Pics of rims on car! Those look awesome.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Are you going to have slicks as well? Those drag radials aren't going to cut it

this

This is like a running joke now, so many people are pushing me to run this as a serious drag effort.

If someone has a set of 15x8s with some rubber they are willing to donate, I'd be happy to run a real slick. But then I'd want/need to strap the front, shim the rear and run 1000# springs, and a set of bars to keep the nose dug in. Not to mention a much more heavy duty clutch.. likely a QM/PTT/Tilton deal.

The tires in those pictures are actually 140 treadwear DOT street/circuit tires, Hankook RS3s.

I got them less for launch or lateral grip and more for the speed rating and braking from 150+ on pavement if I don't feel the need to pop the chute at some of the long course events coming up this year (Mile/Half-Mile).

How much experience do you have spraying pre turbo? With 14 GPH total-what do you expect the change in AFR to be if you were 50/50?

Very, very little personal experience and it was a crude setup on an S16G that I only ran a couple months before selling that car. But the experience was good.

I've used single nozzle on a few setups, right at the TB with success.

This car however will be starting on water for simplicity. When I phase in the meth 14GPH on the standard 150psi pump is going to be ~870cc/min, on the 250psi pump I'm using its about 1000CC/min, so a 50/50 mix would give me about 500cc/min worth of meth

I'm starting the car up on a set of FIC1450s to being with, while I save up to have the second rail added. So about 6000cc/min E85, and 500cc/min Meth

So some really rough math is suggesting that on a 50/50 mix, 14GPH @ 250si could push me from 7.81:1AFR (E85 scale, Lambda 0.8) to the neighborhood of 7.18-7.42:1 AFR, so 5-8% richer

100% meth, or 1000cc/min ... I'm thinking would put me somewhere around 6.63-6.95:1 or 11-16% richer

I don't think those numbers are especially accurate. But its the ball park figure I've got in my head, and really only able to find out by doing it. I think the addition of meth, which is ~6.4:1 AFR at Lambda 1.0 will probably make it richer than that.

Basically I'll adding in the range of 5-15% Meth to the primary fuel, E85. Again these numbers are real rough, and I expect to see actual results differ. Should be fun!

I'll pull fuel as needed on the primary injectors to get back to my target lambda in open loop. Eventually I will have the dual rail setup up and running, with a bunch of different injector sets to play around with. Currently have 450s, 850s and 1450s at my disposal. 850s and 1450s, with 500-1000cc/min of meth should be more than enough to max out a 71mm turbo on E85.

I can always up the base fuel pressure too, thanks to this monstrous MagnaFuel 4303 pump.

Pics of rims on car! Those look awesome.

Sadly they aren't going on the car till after the first fire up. I have some crappy winter tires/rims on load for it to sit on while we finish fabrication.

The rest of the Dzus quarter-turn fasteners for the bumper covers showed up today

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So begins the custom headlight-scoop intake pipe. This will prove to be a major pain in the ass. Will include a -12AN fitting to provide vacuum to the big ass catch can and a 2GPH meth nozzle a few inches before the compressor wheel

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She's a thirsty girl..

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[Diamond Star Werks]

Ill donate some 15x10.5 you two new two used jk i need to find those though for real. Keep up the good work!:thumbup: liking it all

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Made some progress on the attempt at a headlight shaped scoop like the one on Wohler's 2G

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[biglady112]

We were using the largest Sureflo pump available with the four nozzle injection system. It would not work well while bench testing it. It would pulse and dribble the water. We could not just get a nice steady mist. We had to ad an expansion tank in order for it to work properly. With that we could maintain pressure from 120psi to about a max of 170psi when the tank was filled back up. Our particular Sureflo pump would refill the expansion tank once pressure bled down to 120psi.

Something to think about if you want a nice consistent spray. We spent a whole night trying to dial it in. Once we introduced the surge tank, it worked like a champs for hours on end hooked up to a sink to test the durability of the system. 5 mile blasts are not the same as 1/4 mile runs. And if you are on stock brakes you may want to rethink having a parachute available for 1 mile runs. We experienced brake fade very easily and if we were lucky enough to get multiple runs in in under an hour, by the second and third runs there were no brakes left, especially trying for a 200mph stop. Texas has a very short shut down. Wilimington, Oh does have adequate shut down area though.

I would also shoot for 1300-1350* with both your E85 and meth/meth/water injection setup. There should be no reason you would ever have to run the EGT's to 1400*. Heck, even 1200-1300 might be possible with enough methonal injection. Remember, cool motors are happy motors. Timing also decreases your EGT's. Just don't be ridiculous and try for some miracle run. It is far more fun to be able to do run after run with minor adjustments than having to do major engine work on the road.

I will also preach this, you need to invest into a larger capacity cooling system. You WILL NOT be able to keep head gaskets in the car if you do not. This is spoken from true experience. AMS did not come prepared like they were warned to the Texas Mile. It cost them a motor and a major engine fire. We were parked at the top of the track and witnessed it all. I had the colt setup to run 13 gallons total. The Talon runs 10-11 gallons. That car had every head gasket in it. And it is only a matter of time before they let go. The only ones that would last would be stock head gaskets. We also modified the way the oil and water flowed through the engine. No fluids transferred between the engine block and cylinder head aside from the oil drain holes. They were plumbed as two seperate systems. That and stock head gaskets is what made the motors start to last with consistency over 800hp.

5 miles is not 1/4 mile. No one will ever understand that until they attempt to put a car down the Salt.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

We were using the largest Sureflo pump available with the four nozzle injection system. It would not work well while bench testing it. It would pulse and dribble the water. We could not just get a nice steady mist. We had to ad an expansion tank in order for it to work properly. With that we could maintain pressure from 120psi to about a max of 170psi when the tank was filled back up. Our particular Sureflo pump would refill the expansion tank once pressure bled down to 120psi.

Something to think about if you want a nice consistent spray. We spent a whole night trying to dial it in. Once we introduced the surge tank, it worked like a champs for hours on end hooked up to a sink to test the durability of the system. 5 mile blasts are not the same as 1/4 mile runs. And if you are on stock brakes you may want to rethink having a parachute available for 1 mile runs. We experienced brake fade very easily and if we were lucky enough to get multiple runs in in under an hour, by the second and third runs there were no brakes left, especially trying for a 200mph stop. Texas has a very short shut down. Wilimington, Oh does have adequate shut down area though.

I would also shoot for 1300-1350* with both your E85 and meth/meth/water injection setup. There should be no reason you would ever have to run the EGT's to 1400*. Heck, even 1200-1300 might be possible with enough methonal injection. Remember, cool motors are happy motors. Timing also decreases your EGT's. Just don't be ridiculous and try for some miracle run. It is far more fun to be able to do run after run with minor adjustments than having to do major engine work on the road.

I will also preach this, you need to invest into a larger capacity cooling system. You WILL NOT be able to keep head gaskets in the car if you do not. This is spoken from true experience. AMS did not come prepared like they were warned to the Texas Mile. It cost them a motor and a major engine fire. We were parked at the top of the track and witnessed it all. I had the colt setup to run 13 gallons total. The Talon runs 10-11 gallons. That car had every head gasket in it. And it is only a matter of time before they let go. The only ones that would last would be stock head gaskets. We also modified the way the oil and water flowed through the engine. No fluids transferred between the engine block and cylinder head aside from the oil drain holes. They were plumbed as two seperate systems. That and stock head gaskets is what made the motors start to last with consistency over 800hp.

5 miles is not 1/4 mile. No one will ever understand that until they attempt to put a car down the Salt.

So you were using the expansion tank as a hydraulic accumulator to maintain a pressure head before the pump? That's pretty clever. How did you have that plumbed? Was the tank T'd off the feed to the nozzles?

I'm no longer on stock brakes, and there is going to be an LSR chute on the car.

1300-1350*F is the neighborhood I was aiming for on the pre-turbine EGT, so it's reassuring to hear from those with experience that this is a "safe" temperature. It's what I used to aim for on my old cummins diesel under load as well.

Added Coolant capacity is a plan on the to do list already. Thinking about a big reservoir and a large bilge pump, running 1" lines. Was going to mount it behind the passenger seat. Something on the order of 10 gallons is what we were aiming for.

The engine/head segregation for both fluid systems is something I would be interested to learn more about and I'm going to have to include that in the budget for later this year or over the winter. Much appreciated, thats knowledge not generally shared in many communities.

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On the drag-racing side of things, more folks are pushing me to do some short runs, and I am looking into a deal on some Hoosier QTPs. This would also help me get some more seat time in at higher speeds.

If the bottom end can hold up, I am eventually (6-12 months out) planning on having enough power to trap in the neighborhood of 160-165mph at 2900-3100lbs, if the car can get the power to the pavement for enough of the track.

The head/shortblock are set for big rpm and its a 5 speed, so I'm thinking if I can save myself a shift into 4th it may save me some time.. anyone have thoughts on 26 vs 28 slick on a 67 or 71mm turbo stick shift car?

I can only think of one person running a 28" tire (Kiggly), and his front end was modified extensively so fitment wasn't even an issue.. do we even have room to fit a 28" OD in the 1G front wheel wells? Let alone one that will grow bigger down track?

Would smaller backspacing help me clear the spring perch?

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It sure is getting crowded in there:

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Some -16 for the rad hoses, these things are kind of a pain to deal with and cost a pretty penny. But hoping they'll provide some piece of mind that they won't blow off if the head gasket lets go!

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[biglady112]

I can't remember if the tank fed the pump or the pump fed the tank. I think the pump fed the tank and the tank fed the two solenoids for the four nozzles.

How long is the chute? I was very light in the colt and ran a 45ft long parachute.

I ran/run -12 lines in the colt/truck and have no cooling issues. The Talon runs -20, but like I said, I get away with 3/4" with no issues. The capacity is what helps.

No offense but making enough useable power to trap over 160mph in a FWD dsm is not easy to do. To my knowledge only one car has gone that fast and it was a dedicated drag car. It was Frank and Surge from Canada in their FWD auto Mirage. That car was a 74mm car that was a max effort methonal powered vehicle. You are far to heavy for that power range to accomplish that. If you have visions of going that fast, you need to familiarize yourself with what the SFWD class cars are doing. It is a class dominated by Honda's, but there are some serious Neon's in that class out there though. They are all on these 64mm+ new billet turbos and weigh 600-1000lbs less than your goal.

If you are running a stock style suspension, it is going to have to take some super custom wheel to clear the suspension. We ran both a 9.5" and a 10" tire. And with the stock suspension we had to hack the strut to make it work. Going to a full coilover there was no longer and issues. Going to a coilover opens up a ton more wheel options for you.

With 26" tall tires and no launch control, we could never get the car out of second gear in the quarter mile. And only into third if we shifted early. The FWD dsm transmission is too tall. We were doing 115mph in second gear though through the traps. There is a lot of gear in those cases. So don't get caught up on traps speeds as the FWD DSM is much more tailored to big, stretched out MPH, not short 1/4 mile blasts.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I can't remember if the tank fed the pump or the pump fed the tank. I think the pump fed the tank and the tank fed the two solenoids for the four nozzles.

How long is the chute? I was very light in the colt and ran a 45ft long parachute.

I ran/run -12 lines in the colt/truck and have no cooling issues. The Talon runs -20, but like I said, I get away with 3/4" with no issues. The capacity is what helps.

No offense but making enough useable power to trap over 160mph in a FWD dsm is not easy to do. To my knowledge only one car has gone that fast and it was a dedicated drag car. It was Frank and Surge from Canada in their FWD auto Mirage. That car was a 74mm car that was a max effort methonal powered vehicle. You are far to heavy for that power range to accomplish that. If you have visions of going that fast, you need to familiarize yourself with what the SFWD class cars are doing. It is a class dominated by Honda's, but there are some serious Neon's in that class out there though. They are all on these 64mm+ new billet turbos and weigh 600-1000lbs less than your goal.

If you are running a stock style suspension, it is going to have to take some super custom wheel to clear the suspension. We ran both a 9.5" and a 10" tire. And with the stock suspension we had to hack the strut to make it work. Going to a full coilover there was no longer and issues. Going to a coilover opens up a ton more wheel options for you.

With 26" tall tires and no launch control, we could never get the car out of second gear in the quarter mile. And only into third if we shifted early. The FWD dsm transmission is too tall. We were doing 115mph in second gear though through the traps. There is a lot of gear in those cases. So don't get caught up on traps speeds as the FWD DSM is much more tailored to big, stretched out MPH, not short 1/4 mile blasts.

Yea really long lines, got to be at least 45-50ft. Stroud unit.

Running a 71mm Pro wheel, big cam/rpm and plans to move up to a 75mm or even 80mm turbo later. Launch control and boost-by-gear will be configured.

Looking to make around 900-950whp in that earlier stated 6-12 month window at sea level before we're finished. Looking at the manual cars trapping that range, they are making about as much. The only reason I'm contemplating quarter traps is because they can help forecast full-mile speeds to an extent, not exactly a direct relationship obviously.

We have been talking to the guys running the 67mm and 72mm classes around here, and they seem to feel thats about what we need based on the setup.

I have no illusions about this being easy.. a lot will be broken on the way, there will be set backs and we still have a lot to learn about how this car behaves at those speeds.

These goals are lofty, sure.. but not impossible. I have patience measured in years.. and it's already been 5 years in the making, so whats a few more

A phrase my father shared with me regarding the project before he passed last year was

"shoot for the moon, even if you miss, you will land among the stars."

So, even falling short it will still make for something of an accomplishment in my eyes. As I'm sure you are well accusomed.. few people understand what it is I'm doing.. and even less know why. Pretty sure you would fall into the latter category, and please believe that I find your input very valuable!

115mph in second on a 26", is this an auto DSM trans? What rpm?

Coilovers are also on the to do list! We just want to get out and get moving with the car in semi-street trim to start collecting data and experience.

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On a side note: Pain in the ass to install, but should be worth it!

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Easy access to the components underneath, and they look pretty slick too. Need to make some more under-bracing for the bumper covers so they don't fold in (front) or ripped off (rear) under wind loading.

 

[biglady112]

Five speed tranny. Stock FWD 1-4 gears. Just listen to what I said, 160mph is not easy. There has only been on FWD DSM that fast. And I can only think of one or two others over 150, and they were Colts or Mirages not DSMs. Ebriham's car has been over 150, not sure if he passed 160 yet though.

Trap speeds will not equal mile speeds. We did just under 200mph never quite having a full pass with 105-115mph trap speeds. You won't know until you get out there. I saw plenty of Evo's and DSM's that were 11 and 12 second cars only run 150's and 160's. So keep that in mind. When I speak it is the truth. I have seen it and have been blazing the trail for 7 years now you are heading down.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Five speed tranny. Stock FWD 1-4 gears. Just listen to what I said, 160mph is not easy. There has only been on FWD DSM that fast. And I can only think of one or two others over 150, and they were Colts or Mirages not DSMs. Ebriham's car has been over 150, not sure if he passed 160 yet though.

Trap speeds will not equal mile speeds. We did just under 200mph never quite having a full pass with 105-115mph trap speeds. You won't know until you get out there. I saw plenty of Evo's and DSM's that were 11 and 12 second cars only run 150's and 160's. So keep that in mind. When I speak it is the truth. I have seen it and have been blazing the trail for 7 years now you are heading down.

Ebrahim's car has been 9.0x @ 166 at just above sea level.

Gary's DSM went 9.5x in the low 150s

Short list for sure. In PM, Ebrahim says hes making only low 800s out of a 2.0

The talon turned 200mph and only trapped 115? That's actually somewhat encouraging.. I have gone almost as fast on a 14B @ 2800lbs. Not that the 14B would ever pull that sort of top end haha

I was not expecting to just go out and hit 160s, let alone 140s. I just want to make the power to do that and then spend the rest of the time tuning the chassis/suspension/tires and get close as possible.

So that way between the altitude/DA and tire slippage on the salt we still may be able to eek out 200mph after all the remaining safety equipment has been gathered.

On paper, the crude math shows about ~530whp is required with a 1GB's front cross section and cD to do 200 over 4-5 miles, and about 775whp to do 225mph. Does that stand up to what you guys we're seeing in the real world? (I think I've asked you this before )

Pics of rims on car! Those look awesome.

Quick test fit for your benefit:

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[biglady112]

Since our falling out I have deleted a dyno video from a few years back. The car made exactly 530whp in the video. Two days later the car went 204mph down the salt. I am quite certain if I would have been able to make the trip(another long, not so fun story) this past fall, I would have been able to keep the car together enough to push it over 220mph with ease with 750-800hp. We had to make adjustments on the dyno as there was a last minute engine change. But the new engine had higher compression and much more serious cams and it through the tune off a lot. He was unable to have a successful trip and only mustered 211mph before he hurt the engine. But those are about the numbers we made to accomplish those mph milestones.

Making the power is not the issue. It is keeping it together for one run, let alone a week's worth of runs. The short one mile events are not too difficult, but you find out what you are made of real quick on the salt. My advice is take a lot of spare parts. Like engines and transmissions. We broke everything. I did engines and engine repairs in texas, utah and ohio. It is going to happen. Don't drive thousands of miles with nothing more than your car on a trailer. Your week will end quickly.

If you ever make it west to the salt, I would seriously make the trip and help crew the car for the week. That is a true, whole hearted offer. I would love to make it back as the place is just magical.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Very cool, so my numbers are pretty close.. at least the theory portion. Using the "double velocity, power goes up fourfold" rule.

I very much want to go out to Wendover and Bonneville before bringing my junk. I would be honored to accept your offer, and I may well be able to check things out one way or the other as the guy I bought this chassis from has a relative that ran a surplus fuel tank converted to a lakester running a small block chevy to a couple of "soft" records the best of which was something like 283.xxx mph at World of Speed a few years back. I'll have to get the guys name, see if you've bumped into him. It's red tube fram inside a military green tank, rear engine.

Not exactly super familiar with these guys, so I can't say I know what his program is truly like of course. I do know it's a multi-week undertaking just to load the trailer and prep the car.. lots of all nighters that crew pulls in the last week before setting out. It's an intense undertaking from an observers standpoint, let alone being in the mix. Frankly quite exciting.

I am accruing replacement bits.. already have two engines, two turbos, one trans (looking for more), brake rotors/pads, axles/cups, hubs/bearings, wheel studs, assorted fasteners, gaskets and so on.

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Turbine drive pressure signal damper came in from Tony @ T1R tonight:

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[LandSpeed-DSM]

So some of the more dramatic exterior stuff should be getting sorted out this week.. trying to find a way to keep pressure under the back of the car low and keep the cover from getting ripped off by a few hundred pounds of aero drag at speed

So in addition to a couple multi-port diffusers put into the cover we are latching it with metal studs off the chassis at the top and the bottom:

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And on the front we are trying to massage the cover to fit the big ass intercooler:

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Don't mind the surge tank hanging low, the cradle is sitting at the bottom of its adjustment while we move things around. Ground clearance is not an issue.

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Yes I have to Fix that rust spot. The whole car is getting touched up after its running and I am having the underbody sprayed with rhino-liner.

Third meth nozzle is now in the pre-turbo pipe

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Meth lines all run
All meth lines run

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