What tuning tools should I buy? (list inside)

[fallenauthority]

Ok, well I just got my talon back with a new Big 16G and I decided its time to break down and buy some logging and fuel system management stuff. Ok so far I have:
Boost controller (duh)
Apexi SAFCII
Pocketlogger software, cable, and a palm Zire 71.

Should this be enough for now to start me out with tuning? I want to safely bring it up to 14-15 psi for now till I get new injectors and fuel pump. And I want to do it right. This look like a good start? Thanks guys.

 

[alex99gst]

That is sufficient to turn up the boost right now. All you really need to worry about is staying away from knock and watching your timing, O2 volts, etc.. and tuning based around those.

 

[CanadianTSi]

What kind of "tuning" do you think you can do with the stock Injectors?

 

[Talesin]

Personally, I'd say to drop the SAFC and Pocketlogger. Pull your ECU, see if you have an EPROM unit. If you do, send it off and get DSMLink instead. FAR better than the SAFC, and there's software to log to a Palm with it (and an adapter for the end of the cable, which is about five bucks at most computer stores, just a serial 9-pin male/male or female/female.. can't remember which).

Figure the SAFC is about $350-400, and Pocketlogger is $125. So $475-525 total, not counting any shipping or installation for the SAFC. You won't idle smoothly any more, and tuning will take a good bit of time.

$565 for the DSMLink EPROM, or about $600 if you send the ECU in to them for socketing service. After that, your car will idle like stock up to 1000cc injectors, maintain drivability, be easier to tune, stay a little more sleeper (nothing says 'ticket me' to a cop like obvious aftermarket tuning tools mounted prominently!), and end up with a better end product with far more room for growth down the line. You can also usually find '95 ECUs on the Classifieds with DSMLink already installed for about $700, or non-socketed 95 ECUs for 200-300.
DSMLink is the right way to go, if you aren't ready (aka: can't afford) to make the jump to a standalone.

Also, I'm assuming that you have an aftermarket boost gauge already? If not, get one ASAP. You also might think about an EGT gauge and/or Wideband O2 setup.

 

[dsm-onster]

Personally, I'd say to drop the SAFC and Pocketlogger. Pull your ECU, see if you have an EPROM unit. If you do, send it off and get DSMLink instead. FAR better than the SAFC, and there's software to log to a Palm with it (and an adapter for the end of the cable, which is about five bucks at most computer stores, just a serial 9-pin male/male or female/female.. can't remember which).

Figure the SAFC is about $350-400, and Pocketlogger is $125. So $475-525 total, not counting any shipping or installation for the SAFC. You won't idle smoothly any more, and tuning will take a good bit of time.

$565 for the DSMLink EPROM, or about $600 if you send the ECU in to them for socketing service. After that, your car will idle like stock up to 1000cc injectors, maintain drivability, be easier to tune, stay a little more sleeper (nothing says 'ticket me' to a cop like obvious aftermarket tuning tools mounted prominently!), and end up with a better end product with far more room for growth down the line. You can also usually find '95 ECUs on the Classifieds with DSMLink already installed for about $700, or non-socketed 95 ECUs for 200-300.
DSMLink is the right way to go, if you aren't ready (aka: can't afford) to make the jump to a standalone.

Also, I'm assuming that you have an aftermarket boost gauge already? If not, get one ASAP. You also might think about an EGT gauge and/or Wideband O2 setup.

I agree, but guys are getting stock idle with 1400-1600cc injectors now .

Back to the original poster. Yes, DSMLink would have been my first purchase had I known what I know now about what I want. Had I wanted to do it right. It is worth the price. He!!, you have a 1995. You mostlikely have an eprom ecu.

To do it right (my opinion):

1. You should get a fuel pump and injector upgrade when you upgrade your turbo. A blown head gasket is expensive even if you get an oem replacement (you'll probably change to ARP headstuds because of the "while you're in there" bug).

2. You should overkill on injectors if you want to develop your car into "superstreet" status. I think over kill is +650cc injectors. I think 650cc injectors is to much for an SAFC or MAFt or any piggy back combo. Any piggyback that controls your timing to counter the compensation of fuel is about the same price as DSMLink alone. My maft is just for BOV fun and she's zeroed out.

3. A walbro 255HP is $10-20 more than a 190. But youll need an adjustable FPR. You should get the 255 if you think you may get a bigger turbo later (you'll want a 50 trim/20G probably )

4. Logging software that records (the higher the rpm resolution the better). Yea, I love my scanmaster, but i have to drive! it's good to have something you can look back on after the run to really fine tune. DSMLink has the best logging software, bar none.

I'm saying that you really shouldn't just get started "tuning around" if you want to do things right. Unless you have a free safc laying around . If I really thought about these points before, I would have saved enough to get the 50 trim i want now .

 

[fallenauthority]

I agree, but guys are getting stock idle with 1400-1600cc injectors now .

Back to the original poster. Yes, DSMLink would have been my first purchase had I known what I know now about what I want. Had I wanted to do it right. It is worth the price. He!!, you have a 1995. You mostlikely have an eprom ecu.

To do it right (my opinion):

1. You should get a fuel pump and injector upgrade when you upgrade your turbo. A blown head gasket is expensive even if you get an oem replacement (you'll probably change to ARP headstuds because of the "while you're in there" bug).

2. You should overkill on injectors if you want to develop your car into "superstreet" status. I think over kill is +650cc injectors. I think 650cc injectors is to much for an SAFC or MAFt or any piggy back combo. Any piggyback that controls your timing to counter the compensation of fuel is about the same price as DSMLink alone. My maft is just for BOV fun and she's zeroed out.

3. A walbro 255HP is $10-20 more than a 190. But youll need an adjustable FPR. You should get the 255 if you think you may get a bigger turbo later (you'll want a 50 trim/20G probably )

4. Logging software that records (the higher the rpm resolution the better). Yea, I love my scanmaster, but i have to drive! it's good to have something you can look back on after the run to really fine tune. DSMLink has the best logging software, bar none.

I'm saying that you really shouldn't just get started "tuning around" if you want to do things right. Unless you have a free safc laying around . If I really thought about these points before, I would have saved enough to get the 50 trim i want now .

Done already, Got the head rebuilt and ARP head studs and a new HG. Along with new valves, seals, springs, rockers, etc. Well it looks like I will end up getting DSMlink. And I know I wont be able to really “tune” with stock injectors but the thing Is I have to be sneaky about it because im 16 and of course the parents don’t want me to be “fast and furious” haha. Shouldn’t have let them watch that movie. Well then, 660cc injectors, 255lph fuel pump, dsmlink(if I have an eprom ecu, don’t know how to tell? Sorry) And a palm to log from dsmlink then. Thanks guys, sorry if I seem noobish, but ive been researching for a while and now the real fun begins because I actually have a dsm now. Thanks.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Good choice with DSMlink. Its worth the money!

Injectors look the same no matter what size they are. I'd suggest going larger if you haven't already bought the 660s. Theres no reason to have to buy them twice if you're using DSMlink. AT LEAST 750s, but 850s or higher also work.

If you still have the stock 1995 ECU it is E PROM however, I believe vfaq has a thing on how to check. If not open it up and take a picture!

Just warning you ahead of time. You start down this path, you'll be spending all your money on it for a long, LONG time.

 

[dsm-onster]

Just warning you ahead of time. You start down this path, you'll be spending all your money on it for a long, LONG time.

OH sh!t yes! I'm looking back ato this past years receipts and I've tallied $3500+ but that includes the purchase of the car. And i still havn't put up my Small 16G for sale yet.

fallenauthority, you look sideways at these 4G63s and they make power. It is relatively inexpensive to get good results no matter what horsepower level you're at. Perhaps this is why we spend SOOO much on our hobbies . Great start with studding the head. Now just don't detonate ...

 

[fallenauthority]

Oh yes, I have been reading about them and after owning mine for a couple months, even though it has cost me a lot of money to get it running like it is now, i love it. wouldnt trade my dsm for the world. I cant wait to get it into the 300hp range, cause as of now it feels awesome, but already im craving more boost.
So, DSMLink, 750s, 255 pump, palm, and boost controller. Sound like what i need to really get a start?

 

[Talesin]

Don't forget the boost gauge. And an AFPR for that 255 pump.
Recommend an EGT gauge, or possibly a wideband O2, just so you can roll-tune it. The cheapass 'a/f ratio' gauges tap into the narrowband sensor, and are just a lightshow. They're worthless for tuning.
EGT gauge will tell you when your exhaust gasses are getting too hot, and you're at risk of melting your pistons.
Wideband O2 will tell you your ACTUAL air/fuel mixture. This makes tuning *easy*. Well, easier at any rate. Polk is selling off AEM UEGO setups for $300 until the end of the month.

Beyond that, looks good. Going with 850s myself, but just because I got them on sale from FIC.. cost the same as 750s.

 

[fallenauthority]

Don't forget the boost gauge. And an AFPR for that 255 pump.
Recommend an EGT gauge, or possibly a wideband O2, just so you can roll-tune it. The cheapass 'a/f ratio' gauges tap into the narrowband sensor, and are just a lightshow. They're worthless for tuning.
EGT gauge will tell you when your exhaust gasses are getting too hot, and you're at risk of melting your pistons.
Wideband O2 will tell you your ACTUAL air/fuel mixture. This makes tuning *easy*. Well, easier at any rate. Polk is selling off AEM UEGO setups for $300 until the end of the month.

Beyond that, looks good. Going with 850s myself, but just because I got them on sale from FIC.. cost the same as 750s.

Already have a boost guage, mounted ghetto but hey it works. Ok then, list changed again hahah:
mbc
dsmlink
palm
AEM UEGO wideband O2
750s
255lph pump
AFPR

Wow, this just got uber expensive. Can one of you make a simplified list for me of what I can get by with having for now and run 14-15lbs of boost till i can afford the rest of the setup? I will have around 1000 bucks to spend, links would be VERY helpful, thanks guys. Sorry for all the questions but technically im still a noob and I want to get stuff done right and learn a lot in the process.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Already have a boost guage, mounted ghetto but hey it works. Ok then, list changed again hahah:
mbc
dsmlink
palm
AEM UEGO wideband O2
750s
255lph pump
AFPR

Wow, this just got uber expensive. Can one of you make a simplified list for me of what I can get by with having for now and run 14-15lbs of boost till i can afford the rest of the setup? I will have around 1000 bucks to spend, links would be VERY helpful, thanks guys. Sorry for all the questions but technically im still a noob and I want to get stuff done right and learn a lot in the process.

Here, I'll give you an "order for spending"

1) DSMlink (www.dsmlink.com) 600$ and worth every penny. This will give you more horsepower, however slightly indirectly.

2) MBC (www.boostsciences.com) 50-60$ there are lots of places to get these, I just go with what I've used before and know to work. Its a very simple device in all reality.

3) Injectors, Fuel pump, AFPR. Walbro 255hp's are everywhere. figure to spend 95$ on a new one with the DSM install kit. Injectors are sold everywhere, FICs are the cheaper end, should be about 300$ for a set. You have some options with the adjustable fuel pressure regulator. I personally like the "bolt on" from www.fullthrottlespeed.com figure you'll end up spending almost 175$ on this. (*other options exist, I think the bolt on is pretty simple and effective myself)

4) Wideband. I have the Zeitronix kit (www.zeitronix.com) which allows you to log or use their LCD display. the UEGO is a decent kit as well.

The palm is just if you don't have or can't keep a laptop in your car. after everything is setup initially, you don't ACTUALLY need to have anything logging, but its nice. The palm is another option for those who don't want to have a dedicated laptop for their cars. The zeitronix kit has new palm software as well.

EDIT: If you just want to up the boost now, get the MBC, DSMlink, and larger injectors. Be careful though, as the stock fuel pump can run out of steam if you up the boost too much. You'll be safe with 16psi though.

 

[2gGSX]

You won't need the palm pilot with DSMLink. That is..unless you plan on running DSMLink on that, which can be done although it is much easier to operate on a real laptop.

You can also consider spending a little less and going with the Innovative LC-1, which doesn't include a gauge or reader itself but you can log its output by directly using DSMLink, which has the benefit of overlaying the wideband AFR data over your other logged data.

 

[Talesin]

Oop, hadn't realized that you were going to *buy* a palm, thought you already had one. DSMLink, as stated before, works better with a laptop. You only need it in the car for logging and tuning... the rest of the time, you can leave it at home. Heck, you can probably borrow one from a buddy if you don't have one already. If not, an older Palm would be more cost-effective than a laptop... just noting that the option is there.

Yeah, I'd go with DSMLink, then the injectors. If you have money left over, the AFPR and then the Walbro 255 HP. The AFPR will let you raise your fuel pressure a little (if needed) even on the stock pump. On AFPRs, I prefer the Aeromotive with a rail fitting to a direct bolt-on; seems to give a steadier pressure level for some reason. Plus the 1:1 rise rate guarantee is nice to have, if the spring ever dies.

 

[2gGSX]

In regards to the previous post, I would highly advise against increasing base fuel pressure on the stock pump in order to squeeze out extra flow over what the injectors are rated for. While this is a common practice, the 2g pumps *will not* flow enough at high fuel pressure to support what the injectors are capable of flowing at said increased fuel pressure. The only safe way to do this is to have a massively high flowing fuel pump which will not crap out at high fuel pressures.

The math involved is slightly complicated but I will post it at your request if you require statistical data to prove this.

 

[fallenauthority]

I knew there was a reason why I loved this forum. Thank you guys for all of your answers and help. You answered exactly what i needed and you will receive rep. points accordingly
I can probably borrow my buddies laptop for the initial setup. But as of now I will be buying DSMLink and a MBC. I will have to be sneaky and buy the pump and 750s a little while after I get dsmlink and the mbc because of my parents strict rules about modding my car, as far as they know the mbc is to keep the car from overboosting and dsmlink is to monitor my car (which is partly true ) Thanks again!

 

[spyderturbo007]

You are going to want to have the injectors and DSMLink at the same time. The reason being that the guys at DSMLink program the chip with a specific injector compensation map. For example, if you tell them that you have 450cc injectors, they will program the map for the 450's. If you then upgrade to 750's you will either have to send the chip back and have it reflashed or make a lot of changes to the timing/fuel maps.

Also, with DSMLink, I recommend nothing less that 950cc injectors. DSMLink can have any injectors idling at stock right out of the box. So there is no reason not to overkill on the injectors.

 

[2gGSX]

You don't necessarily need to upgrade injectors at the same time, however he is right and you do need to specify what injectors you want the chip to be burned for. If you know for certain what you will get then you can get away with resetting your global fuel % and deadtime settings to 0 to revert back to the stock 450cc injector's settings.

 

[Talesin]

Spyder, no. You specify a baseline injector size, for if the battery gets disconnected (on the 2Gs). You can definitely go in and change the injector compensation. Apparently if you start out with an EPROM set for 450s, DSMLink can handle up to 1000cc injectors with no problem. If you need larger, you need to get the chip burnt for a larger injector, like 650s or so.

That's the beauty of DSMLink. Tune it as you upgrade. Only reason to send your EPROM back is when the new version comes out, and it's upgrade time.

 

[fallenauthority]

Well I sent an email to slowboy, cause thats where i placed my order last night. I told them to have it set for 750s instead of the 450s. I will be able to run the 450s correct? Just have to change some settings?

 

[Talesin]

Er, I'm not sure. I know you can adjust it *up* if you go to larger injectors, I'm not sure if you can adjust it *down* if it was burnt for larger ones and you want to go back to stock.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Spyder, no. You specify a baseline injector size, for if the battery gets disconnected (on the 2Gs). You can definitely go in and change the injector compensation. Apparently if you start out with an EPROM set for 450s, DSMLink can handle up to 1000cc injectors with no problem. If you need larger, you need to get the chip burnt for a larger injector, like 650s or so.

That's the beauty of DSMLink. Tune it as you upgrade. Only reason to send your EPROM back is when the new version comes out, and it's upgrade time.

Did you even read my post before you slammed me with a negative rep point???

I said exactly the same damn thing you did.

If you read my post I said that if you need to change the injector size you will either have to send the chip back or COMPENSATE FOR THE NEW INJECTORS BY ADJUSTING THE FUEL MAPS.

I mentioned the chip reflashing because of the possibility of the battery dying. I don't want him to go get DSMLink for his 450cc injectors, then drop in some 950cc injectors and have the battery die. Then you're left somewhere without your laptop running 950cc injectors like 450cc injectors.

You might want to read someone's post before you go dropping negative rep point.

I'm not an ass, such as yourself, so I'm not going to return the favor of the negative rep point because you failed reading comprehension class.

Stupid ass people.

 

[Talesin]

My apologies. I *had* misread, once I saw 'have to send the chip back and have it reflashed'. I'd forgotten the lack of a persistent memory daughterboard for the 2G version, giving a good reason for a reflash, anticipating the situation you described. I will see about returning the rep point once it's possible; and again, my apologies.

 

[2gGSX]

Er, I'm not sure. I know you can adjust it *up* if you go to larger injectors, I'm not sure if you can adjust it *down* if it was burnt for larger ones and you want to go back to stock.

You can most certainly adjust it down if it was burnt for larger ones. The correct settings for the stock 450cc injectors are 0% global fuel adjustment and 0 deadtime adjustment.