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What happened to my bearings?

Posted by 88BB8B, Jul 26, 2019

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  1. 88BB8B

    88BB8B Proven Member

    97
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    Joined Oct 14, 2016
    Coldstream, BC, Canada
    Hi everybody. My car had a full stock rebuild less than 100km ago. New crank, bearings, pistons, rods, and rings. I noticed a little bit of glitter in the oil on my dipstick so I decided to take the oil pan off and inspect the bottom end even though the engine wasn't knocking or anything. I found 3 or 4 silver flaked in my oil filter, not mostly just dust. I took off my oil pan and found this.

    20190725_223418.jpg
    so I took my rod caps off on cylinders 3 and 4 and the bearings looked like this.

    Cylinder 3
    20190725_223504.jpg
    And Cylinder 4 20190725_223529.jpg there are lines in the crankshaft that I can feel with my fingernail, AI it's toast. My question is what could have caused this. I did at one point drive very gingerly for about 5 minutes with some oil that was somewhat flooded with gasoline, could that cause bearing failure this bad with such low mileage on them.

    Just to clarify if the pictures I'm aren't clear enough I can see at least some copper material on every bearing, with the bearing on the right from cylinder 4 having virtually no silver left on it.

    Last question is, fortunately I caught this very early, the engine wasn't making abnormal noises, it was on a basically brand new rebuild, so you wouldn't think this sort of thing would be going on in there but my paranoia got the best of me. Do any of you think I could I get away with just a new crankshaft and bearings, seeing as virtually all of the particulate I have found is very very fine, almost dust? Or will this just happen again if I do that?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019

    317  1

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  2. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    Oil flooded with gas, and careless assembly killed it. Crank/block/oil system was not clean enough. Doesn't take much.
     

    Showcar Build 6K  1

    1991 Eagle Talon N/T
    9.805 @ 144.00 · 1G DSM
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  3. ThunderChild

    ThunderChild Supporting VIP

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    Depends do you want to do two more rebuilds or one? With all that ultra fine particulate I wouldn't chance a partial go.
     

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  4. Evo joe

    Evo joe Probationary Member

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    Do it right the first time or dont do it at all is my Motto. Dont just slap a crank and bears in your asking for trouble!
     

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  5. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    Bet, just like @bastarddsm said, it was assembled dirty. Cleanliness is next to godliness in motor builds and other things, always. I will say they didn't clean out the crank dead end journals before assembly, but it is all just a guess unless you can pin down the cause during teardown.
     

    Street Build 5K  29

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  6. rabenne

    rabenne Proven Member

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    Sorry for the bad news!! +1 on contaminated at assembly. Something unfriendly was going through your oil passages. Again, you have my condolences.
     

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  7. donniekak

    donniekak DSM Wiseman

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    Dirty assembly.

    When a machine shop machines a block it’s not final washed for assembly, that’s up to you. If a white cloth with wd40 on it is anything but white after wiping cylinder bores you have honing grit to clean out of them.
     

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    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  8. 88BB8B

    88BB8B Proven Member

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    Coldstream, BC, Canada
    Wow, thanks for all of the replies guys. So everybody thinks it was assembled dirty, and if I take it apart, clean it properly, replace the crankshaft and bearing, it should work after that? Can I clean it myself? I found a good deal on a crankshaft and some bearings but I can't afford much other than that. I'm gonna reuse the pistons and rods (assuming they are okay to reuse at this point) because they are brand new.
     

    317  1

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  9. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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  10. 88BB8B

    88BB8B Proven Member

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    The job doesn't sound too terrible. I'm mostly just concerned about the cost. Ordinarily would the pistons, rods, rings and wrist pins be reusable after something like this?

    I found a crankshaft that comes with bearings, its from crankshaft supply, anybody have any experience or knowledge with their quality?
     

    317  1

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  11. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    I would never reuse rings. Maybe its me. Everything else you mentioned I would have no problem cleaning up and reusing. When you get the crank, mic it to see if it is machined correctly. If you can't do that, then at the minimum, use plastiguage when putting the mains and rods back in to know your approximate clearances......and write them down, you will forget after a month or so.
     

    Street Build 5K  29

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    14.74 @ 117.04 · 1G DSM

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    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

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    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
    rwd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

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    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

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    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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  12. 88BB8B

    88BB8B Proven Member

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    I was thinking maybe new rings as well, that's maybe the one other component I could afford, I would love to throw some OEM evo 8 pistons and rods in, because I hear they'll hold about 500hp anand I would love for this car to be at about 400hp when done, but I don't know if the cost of those is in store for me.

    Replacing the piston rings would just mean honing the cylinders again and breaking the motor in properly on top of everything else mentioned, right?

    Also, the crankshafts on a 95' eclipse GSX and a 95' eagle talon tsi AWD are exactly the same right?
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019

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    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  13. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    A rehone and brake the motor in. Yes a 95 Talon TSI has the same crank as the 95 GSX.
     

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    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
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    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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  14. 88BB8B

    88BB8B Proven Member

    97
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    Joined Oct 14, 2016
    Coldstream, BC, Canada
    Thank you. So update I pulled cyl 1 and 2 rod caps off, and the bearings looked about the same as 3 and 4, but I had to pull off the little gearnie thing to get at em, and on the top side of it I found this.
    20190727_133119.jpg
    It is magnetic material. My best guess is that its either honing material, although I have no idea how a supposedly "professional" shop could think that its okay to leave material like that in the engine before reassembly. Or it's cylinder material that has been worn off the cylinders during break in. Or maybe I'm wrong.

    Does this point to any other particular cause for this failure to any of you?
     

    317  1

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  15. 88BB8B

    88BB8B Proven Member

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    Coldstream, BC, Canada
    Will I probably need to replace my balance shafts/ B/S bearings, or do you guys think they'll be okay? Also it felt like my rod caps may have been over torqued when I pulled them off. The correct torquing on them is 18ft*lbs + 90°-100° correct? It felt like they were torqued to over 100 ft/lbs, could severe over torquing cause the bearings to not clear the crankshaft properly?
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019

    317  1

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  16. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    They'd be so tight it would be hard to turn over. I have a video that shows I can spin a 4g crank, without rods on it, with a battery powered drill. It should be snug but not to tight.
     

    Street Build 5K  29

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    14.74 @ 117.04 · 1G DSM

    2K  15

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    935  18

    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
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    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
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    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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  17. 88BB8B

    88BB8B Proven Member

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    Coldstream, BC, Canada
    I noticed when I would shut the car off it seemed like the engine stopped quite quickly compared to other cars I've owned. Could just be the grindy bearings I suppose though.
     

    317  1

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  18. 88BB8B

    88BB8B Proven Member

    97
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    Joined Oct 14, 2016
    Coldstream, BC, Canada
    Update on this situation. Block has been cleaned honed, clearances checked (except for pistons) I have some eagle H-beams, and some OEM evo 8 pistons on the way, (I know everybody is going to tell me to go forged, but I've considered it and I think this engine will probably last longer and be more streetable at the power levels I'm shooting for with a good strong cast piston.) I'm going to cut the pistons for spiralocks. new rings, ACL race rod bearings, ACL aluglide mains. Surprisingly to me this block was in really good shape, the cylinders are almost exactly stock bore, very minimal scoring, all clearances seem to be in a good spot for what I'm planning for this motor. 0.0018"-0.0021" across my mains and I checked one rod with pastigauge and it was right around the 0.002" mark I'll be running 40 weight at least. Once I get this thing going I may add a meth kit since E85 is not available here. Probably will need to consider drive train upgrades before that.
     

    317  1

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  19. pat white

    pat white Proven Member

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    good to hear ...live and learn ...main thing is to keep moving forward ..sharing ur misfortunes will help someone else from having it happen to them ..gotta love this forum !
     

    Street Build 365  1

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  20. donniekak

    donniekak DSM Wiseman

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    Those oem pistons don’t work with eagle rods. The oem pistons have no grooves for the pin clips. In a stock setup the pins are an interference fit in the rod. The eagle rods have the pin floating.
     

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    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  21. 88BB8B

    88BB8B Proven Member

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    I have access to a machine shop and plan to cut groves into the pistons. The OEM evo wristpins are beefy as heck and look like they'll work no problem with the Eagles.
     

    317  1

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  22. 88BB8B

    88BB8B Proven Member

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    Joined Oct 14, 2016
    Coldstream, BC, Canada
    Here's the block today after paint. Just needs a final cleaning before assembly. 20201021_154853.jpg 20201021_154840.jpg

    Lmao, just realized looking at the picturea, I forgot to unmask the frost plugs
     

    317  1

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  23. Dericsh

    Dericsh Supporting Member

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    Looks good. Glad you took the time to get it done right. It will be worth it!
     

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    1991 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
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