Tough choice.. HX35, 18g or 20g

[95tzlgst]

View Profile: drewvr4 - DSMtuners.com

 

[19BLACKGST98]

I've read the holset threads, and although i know what they are capable of, it really doesn't have the info I'm looking for which is how they fit in a 2g car with a turbonetics manifold and stock radiator and fans.

If i knew it would fit perfectly with no troubles i wouldn't have even made this thread, but since i can't find anyone first hand that had pics of what I'm looking to do, i now am thinking about the other options since i know they will fit without getting rid of fans etc..

but i still want to make sure i get something that's along the lines of what i want. I thinking I've ruled out the 18g at this point and am down to the hx35 and a 20g. Since I've found both with t3 flanges at this point it's really a matter of which one's in better shape and fits nicer which I'm leaning towards the 20g honestly, but to be honest I'm always going to regret not getting which ever one i don't get because i really want a first hand comparison of both (don't i just want it all )

My ultimate plans are to land somewhere in the 425 range on the turbo alone and then making it past 500hp with the nitrous. I only want/need about 4-425 for my goals, but i do want to be able to show a dyno sheet of cracking 500 horses even if it is on the bottle

Get one slim line fan for like $50-$60 and use that on the turbo side of the radiator. Leave the factory fan on the passenger side. It will be enough to keep your system cool. Thats the way mine is set up.

 

[turboglenn]

Get one slim line fan for like $50-$60 and use that on the turbo side of the radiator. Leave the factory fan on the passenger side. It will be enough to keep your system cool. Thats the way mine is set up.

Got any pics of how it fits? I would imagine getting rid of the AC fan would be feasible if replaced by a slim-line/SPAL, but it's that main fan that i feel i muyst keep for my goals.

Are you running an hx35? (didn't look at your profile, but am heading there in search of pics)

 

[TurboAnything]

If you go to a 20g will will be very happy the midrange pull is enormous compared to a 57trim. The 20g is still my favorite 450hp turbo nothing come close. I have a S258 and i would switch it out for a 20g in a hartbeat if the car was going to be a daily driver. And my s258 hits 30psi by 3800rpm.

 

[andy4g63]

I've looked and it would have to go on the front of the condensor, there's no room between them.

Believe me, the last thing i wanted in my bay was the big ugly stock fans, but theye've been the only effective cooling route i've found. Everyone i know with aftermarket fans has had the same issues with running teir AC here as well. I guess it's just too hot and humid



It doesn't bother me in my work truck or on my streetbike (as much - i wish their was helemt AC units...i'd have a window unit strapped to my head ), but i just gotta have one vehicle that has a working cooler

There is a solution, Glenn...
Put the AC fan-slim fan in front of condenser core. It works well. It is not perfect, but OK. The only difference is, I have 1G and you 2G, but I think there is a room in front. Plus on 1G car you were about to put the fan in front of condenser core, the fan should be 10", otehrwise wouldn't fit. I don't know for 2G-you have to measure, may be you could use 12". I had my setup like this for a while and worked perfectly fine, my AC too and I had FMIC and big 16G. Plus on 1G, when you turn the AC-on, both fans are ON all the time and you could use fuse or something to disable the AC, if needed, but still run the 2 fans on your command, without additional wireing.

SECOND: For a front puller type fan in the engine bay, I would highly recommend the fan I have:
PERMA-COOL 12" High-performance fan rated at 3000 CFM's.
I have this fan and I run HX-40, so you wouldn't have problem with fitment. Even though, I run ERL mani now, before that I had FP mani and Evo3 mani with the same turbo. Most of the people say put slim fan, but most of slim fans are generic and flow somewhere around 12-1300 CFM's and this is not enough ina hot summer day. This fan can be had from Summit, or some other distrbutors for about $ 100. It is not cheap, but works. Plus I forot how thick it is, but I think is 3.1/4". Don't get Spal fan. This thing is thick, ugly and underperforming.
Even if you manage to fit some AC fan on the passenger side, you know is going to melt the blades. Most of us don't run stock/or stock appearing/ turbos and there are no heat shields for someexhaust manifolds, O2's, DP.
It is totally up to you. I am just giving my opinion and I hate to see you giving up on a beautifull turbo /and cheap/, like HX-35 just because of some cooling issues. Good luck.

 

[We're on Boost]

Well glen Im on straight e85 I put down 462 hp and 400 tq on a bws259. This is one 255hp. I ran out of fuel pump @483hp this was at29psi. I just bought another 255 and will be going to a dual pump setup. This is on the dsm turbine housing. Im going to a t3 set up soon and should see 550hp same boost level which is 27psi right now. Im seeing full boost by 37-3900 rpm with the dsm turbine housing. Im sure with the t3 it will be a bit more laggy but thats fine with me. I would go with a borg warner for the win or holset.

dsmmatt - would you pahleez post up your dyno run on this?
The turbine wheel in dsmmatt's turbo is the smaller one, the 69/61mm one. In his earlier dyno where the ignition was cutting out it looked to have deadly quick spool. So I'd really like to see how that looks this time.

The 69/61mm turbine wheel is the standard one in the little S252. The S252 has a physically much smaller compressor than the 256 and up. It is only 69 mm major dia, (isn't that what the 20g is?). So the low inertia compressor combined with this smaller turbine wheel should make the S252 very quick spooling. I have a compressor map for the S252 and it looks like over 48 lbs/min which is a little bigger than 20g. And the PR goes up to about 4, much higher than the 20g. It's a 7 blade. Bullseye sells them so I think you can get the T3 .55a/r or DSM .55 a/r or I guess any of their other housings. It's pretty new, I don't know of anybody who has tried one yet. I'm thinking it might be a tad bit better than an evo Green and you know people are getting a lot out of those things.

Gary

 

[dsm-onster]

I know you'll be running forms of injection, but pumpgas and the tdo5h turbine wheel do not jive well for more than 400whp. I wouldn't bother with a 20g compressor unless it is coupled to a td06 turbine wheel. The mhi turbine housing works. But it blows for flow. Yet, that turbine wheel can get you by. It flows rather well. A td06h turbine wheel would be even better. Nearly the same spool with a bit more flow, higher power/flow per psi. Very strong midrance. Pleasantly suprising up top because of the stout middle. It feels like it could have run out of juice, but it's still there all the way to 48ish lb/min (680cfm is a better limit tag).

Of course, I favor the hx35 , from first hand experience driving td05h and td06 20g cars. After upping the boost to 27psi or more on the hx35, the boost comes on SO hard between 3200-3500rpms. It's like king kong kicked your car in the rear bumper. Cut crap if you have to! But either choice, don't try to get 20g potential out of a 16g hotside. Great compressor and great turbine wheel, but not matched very well.

 

[turboglenn]

Okay a few more thoughts..wouldn't the external wastegate being open provide some extra exhasut energ out the atmospheric dump allowin the tdo5 t flow al little more when combined with the ext. gate intstead of an internal?

Also the turine housing is a 10cm^ unit... i feel that should lso make up for some of the lost flow in the td05 turbine (correct me if i'm wrong please)

also, i know some turbo guys in TX,...how har dwould it be to upsize to a td06h and machine the housing to accep[t it? THe turbo is hahn super 20g is that helps

 

[dsm-onster]

I figured it was a hahn super20g from the description and the fact that you have a t3 flanged manifold. Ok here goes. I dont want to get into math this Saturday. Though giving you a formula will really help

Wt = Cp X M X ( Tin - Tout ) and Wt = Wc

What this is saying is that work required by the compressor to maintain a flow, Wc, is dependent on the specific heat* Cp of the gases the Mass flow of the gases, M, and the temperature change across the turbine, ( Tin - Tout ). <== That change in temp is the temp of the exhaust manifold gases minus the temp of the 02 housing gases. Since the turbine and compressor are affixed to the same shaft, the work required by the compressor to maintain a certain flow is equal to the work the turbine will have to do to spin the compressor. Since compressor weight is involved and higher required PR, total energy to move the 20g compressor beyond the flow potential of, say, an evo3 16g compressor requires more energy.

*notice the 'heat added' equation is the same as the turbine work equation. Delta T is a change in T​

So first off, your wastegate will have to close more to take your setup beyond to potential of an evo3 16g, into the potential of a 20g compressor. Since the only way to generate energy to spin the turbine comes from flow through the turbine wheel.

Assuming the adiabatic efficiency if all your turbine wheel choices are the same, work the turbine can do can be increased by:

1. Increasing the Cp-- this is heat capacity or specific heat. I wonder if injecting water increases spool speed since water has a much higher specific heat ???? It would cool but a the same time greatly expand while doing so, hmmmm.
2. Increasing the inlet temp-- timing retard (antilag) or exhaust wrap (heat shielding)
3. Decreasing the outlet temp-- large open exhaust or dropping the exhaust at the o2 housing
4. Increasing the Mass flow-- close the WG more or larger turbine wheel or larger a/r. I would say clipping the wheel here but that GREATLY degrades efficiency and the efficincy is a coefficient of the above equation. Thus lower efficiency lowers work and is not worth the increase in flow if you have other choices.

Number 3 is what we're discussing. Take a look at this graph of turbine performance:

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There's a limit of mass flow through the turbine no matter the pressure ratio. The a/r does increase that mass flow which increases work that can be done by the turbine. So there's a limit. The question is this: will the a/r and turbine wheel you've chosen allow enough mass flow so that the work equation will equal the work required to spin the compressor in it's maximum potential? I don't know. I do know that according to the garrett graphs, a 30% increase in volute area yields about a 15% increase in total turbine flow. And thus 15% more work potential that can be exploited with the turbine to spin the compressor. Considering the poor flow design of the mhi turbine housing, you're probable seeing about the same increase using a 10cm^2 turbine housing versus a 7cm^2 turbine housing, though it isa 43% increase in area. Purely benchracing. So the question remains. What are the results out there?

Another point. You can increase the PR across the turbine wheel to increase mass flow through it to a point. But an increase in PR of course affects VE greatly. Exhaust reversion will negate the high flow your compressor can deliver. So running a turbine to it's limit is two edged sword: it may never allow enough flow to increase the work enough to spin the compressor to it's flow potential AND it requires much higher VE-lowering PR to do the work in the first place. See the below graph and notice how much lower the PR can to be to achieve the same mass flow, even with the same a/r turbine housing:

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[pboglio]

Okay a few more thoughts..wouldn't the external wastegate being open provide some extra exhasut energ out the atmospheric dump allowin the tdo5 t flow al little more when combined with the ext. gate intstead of an internal?

Also the turine housing is a 10cm^ unit... i feel that should lso make up for some of the lost flow in the td05 turbine (correct me if i'm wrong please)

also, i know some turbo guys in TX,...how har dwould it be to upsize to a td06h and machine the housing to accep[t it? THe turbo is hahn super 20g is that helps

I've always thought going external bought you some spoolup and power, then I went thru Bushur's build up of one of his EVO's. One of the last mods was a switch to an external wastegate setup on the EVO 16g turbo. Results were quite interesting and totally unexpected: Buschur Racing dyno thread.....new developments. - Page 40 - evolutionm.net

I'm not all that much in a hurry to go external on a TD05H setup. I've always felt the motor could aspirate the same exhaust gas dumping under the motor and the heat alone is another factor. Not saying external isn't superior, but it would have to be well designed.

 

[turboglenn]

I just want to keep my external because

A.) it scares people

b.) It's nice and shiny and looks cool

c.) there's be a big "pluged hole" in my manifold if i didn't run it ( i like the blingy-ness of it too)

 

[Pirrofab]

I don't meanto be a thread hijacker but I am in the same perdicament. Although going with an awd platform and a 2.3liter with 8:8 comp and all the supporting mods I'm stuck on what turbo to select. I'm very hellbent on using a Mitsu flange for the turbo on the manifold and 02 housing with an internal gate. Power goals are just shy of 450whp no bottle. Basically I want to say this hole thread has been a huge help but I'm still stuck between a Evo3 and a 20g/ bastard 20g. I understand the 20g would benefit from the larger wheel but this is going to be my DD and I'm worried about spool times. (even though the stroker spools faster). I also see that I would be running the turbo at 24- 30 psi to acheive this goal. I just don't want to have a motor that pumps more air then the turbo. (I'm not going over 7800rpm). My question is what turbo out of the 16g, 18g, 20g would match the hp goal and flow rating of a 2.3liter.

Sorry if this sounds a little open ended and if any other info is needed just let me know.
Once again thanks turboglenn for starting this as it is exactly what I needed to read.

 

[toofast82]

I don't meanto be a thread hijacker but I am in the same perdicament. Although going with an awd platform and a 2.3liter with 8:8 comp and all the supporting mods I'm stuck on what turbo to select. I'm very hellbent on using a Mitsu flange for the turbo on the manifold and 02 housing with an internal gate. Power goals are just shy of 450whp no bottle. Basically I want to say this hole thread has been a huge help but I'm still stuck between a Evo3 and a 20g/ bastard 20g. I understand the 20g would benefit from the larger wheel but this is going to be my DD and I'm worried about spool times. (even though the stroker spools faster). I also see that I would be running the turbo at 24- 30 psi to acheive this goal. I just don't want to have a motor that pumps more air then the turbo. (I'm not going over 7800rpm). My question is what turbo out of the 16g, 18g, 20g would match the hp goal and flow rating of a 2.3liter.

Sorry if this sounds a little open ended and if any other info is needed just let me know.
Once again thanks turboglenn for starting this as it is exactly what I needed to read.

In this calculator which i dont know how accurate it is but seems decent. It will show you the airflow requirements for a 2.3 up to 8k and 30psi. Certain things will effect VE though such as cams,intake,etc. Plot it against the compressor maps to see how efficient it is with your setup. Having a stroker, i would consider going larger than 16g/18g/20g and possibly look at hx35 or 40 with bolt on housing. Either should spool really well and easily meet your cfm requirements.
http://cybrina.mine.nu:8080/WebModule2/compcalc?size=2.3&ve=90&boost=30&maxrpm=8000&Submit=Submit

 

[IPT]

I don't meanto be a thread hijacker but I am in the same perdicament. Although going with an awd platform and a 2.3liter with 8:8 comp and all the supporting mods I'm stuck on what turbo to select. I'm very hellbent on using a Mitsu flange for the turbo on the manifold and 02 housing with an internal gate. Power goals are just shy of 450whp no bottle. Basically I want to say this hole thread has been a huge help but I'm still stuck between a Evo3 and a 20g/ bastard 20g. I understand the 20g would benefit from the larger wheel but this is going to be my DD and I'm worried about spool times. (even though the stroker spools faster). I also see that I would be running the turbo at 24- 30 psi to acheive this goal. I just don't want to have a motor that pumps more air then the turbo. (I'm not going over 7800rpm). My question is what turbo out of the 16g, 18g, 20g would match the hp goal and flow rating of a 2.3liter.

Sorry if this sounds a little open ended and if any other info is needed just let me know.
Once again thanks turboglenn for starting this as it is exactly what I needed to read.

Sounds to me like you are not looking at any of the right turbo choices. IF you are going to do a bolt on turbo you need to use a BIG turbine wheel to keep the back pressure down with your stroker motor. (a TD05H turbine wheel is not going to cut it!) I think you should look at a Holset HX40. They have been proven in the bolt on housing to make 650+whp when PUSHED, but they are a killer 400-470whp DD. On a 2.0L they spool around 4000-4300 rpms. With your stroker motor you could easily take off 300-500 rpms of spool. That IMHO would be a KILLER DD.

 

[Pirrofab]

Thank you, I have seen a few guys on here with 16g turbos and 2.3 and they don't seem to have complaints about power and there 1/4 mile is more then what I'm looking for. I more so look at the tested tried and true methods then sit down and do countless math for hours to come up with something that most people wouldn't normally do. I have also recently considered a to4b vtrim (SBR has a huge sale on them) But when researched most people seemed to talk of the turbo as once a good turbo but alot of issues with streetability and surge. I have looked into holset but like Turboglenn I don't want the clearence and temperature issues. I also no way shape or form need anything over 475whp. I would be more then satisfied having an 11.90- 12.5 street car. I know those numbers would be achievable more easily on race fuel then pump and thats not an issue. Meth would also be used to aide to get that level of power on a smaller set up.
As far as the 20g with the tdo5h not being enough I would be using the larger Tdo6h wheel and the turbo would be fully ported to help keep BP down.

I've have seen a small 16g 2.0 go 12.5 @ 109 and have seen on here countless 16g cars go even faster thats why I would think a 2.3 and a 20g would be more then heartstopping at the track.

At the same time I would go holset I want to be able to pop my hood during tech inspection or at the local hangout and have goes "how do you go so fast on such a small turbo" I like to keep things "stock appearing"

By the look of the chart at around 7800 and 28psi I would need a turbo to flow about 57lb/min. The would be enough airflow to support about 600whp +/-. It seems like thats a little high although helpful. 50, 60 trims and holsets would be good for that from what I gather but I want to keep it stock appearing.

 

[We're on Boost]

The turbine wheel in dsmmatt's turbo is the smaller one, the 69/61mm one. In his earlier dyno where the ignition was cutting out it looked to have deadly quick spool. So I'd really like to see how that looks this time.

Gotta correct this about dsmmatt's turbine wheel - he told me he found out that his turbine wheel is the normal one, the 74/65mm wheel. The rest of the info, about the S252 with the small turbine, is correct.

Gary

 

[BoostFrenzy]

Quick question for you guys that know, would a HX35 compressor housing be approximately the same size as a say a Garrett .60 A/R 4" inlet comp housing? If so, I have some pictures of mine that is on with the stock passenger side fan if you are interested Glenn.

 

[JusMX141]

I think the HX35 cover is even bigger than a T04E or T04S cover. I have both at my shop, I could take some measurements if you'd like and post back.

Here's a HX35 next to a 16G :

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[Pirrofab]

WOW! I knew the holsets were larger but that size comparison really shows how much room thats going to take up between the water pipe, radiator and fans.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

I think the HX35 cover is even bigger than a T04E or T04S cover.

Thought so. I keep looking around and seeing if I can find pictures of a HX35 on a 2G with stock fan/s for Glenn, but all I find is 1Gs. I'll keep looking.

 

[We're on Boost]

I think the HX35 cover is even bigger than a T04E or T04S cover. I have both at my shop, I could take some measurements if you'd like and post back.

I'd be interested in some numbers on those myself.

BTW, David Hall told me that the new baby Borgs, like the S252, are about 6" across the compressor cover. The new baby S256 - don't know if that is 6" or maybe a bit more.

Gary

 

[turboglenn]

Quick question for you guys that know, would a HX35 compressor housing be approximately the same size as a say a Garrett .60 A/R 4" inlet comp housing? If so, I have some pictures of mine that is on with the stock passenger side fan if you are interested Glenn.

pictures of the to4 or the hx35? I've got a to4e housing on my car with both stock fans right now, but i'd love to see the hx35 with the stock passenger side fan.

The hx35 housing is much larger than any to4e or b. NOw the Ts04 housing is a bit larger, but probably still smaller than the holset fair.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

pictures of the to4 or the hx35? I've got a to4e housing on my car with both stock fans right now, but i'd love to see the hx35 with the stock passenger side fan.

The hx35 housing is much larger than any to4e or b. NOw the Ts04 housing is a bit larger, but probably still smaller than the holset fair.

I was saying I have the Garrett 4" inlet housing which indeed looks to be a bit smaller then the HX35's housing. *think fp3052 comp cover*. I'll keep looking to see what I can find.