Tough choice.. HX35, 18g or 20g

[turboglenn]

Well, now that my motor is complete i'm saving for the turbo to buy this month. My current 57 trim is in good shape but needs a new compressor wheel, so i figue i'll upgrade instead of repairing.

My goals are to have 400+ (anything over 400-415 on the turbo alone will be plenty) Then i am adding a 75 - 100 shot on top for extra spool-aid and that little something extra uip top in third or 4th with those goals in mind and keeping in mind that i don't want to use the n2o daily just for spool here's my choices in order of preference...help me decide

A.) I've found a decent looking hx35 that needs the new turbine wheel and shaft installed and balanced (they come with it, but i'm un-sure teh condition of the CHRA besides being told it's good) and this is my first choice but i can't find any direct info on how the fit is on a 2g car with turbonetics manifold and wanting to retain at least the stock main fan. I won't sacrifice cooling for power, plain and simple i prefer reliability over power any day - i can get this for around 400 bucks not counting the repairs needed - it also has a t3 flange and would be a direct bolt up besides DP and IC pipes, but that will change for any of the options i've laid out

B.) Next i found a local 18g (not sure if it's the 6sl2 though) which is roughly the same price but i would be spending a tad extra to get the tubular manifold and o2 housing with it, but i know it would fit straight up and leave me with a manifold to sell or keep for another project. - brand new, 700 bucks with manifold and o2 housing ( or 500 for the turbo alone)

C.) Next...the 20g i've wanted for sometime.. I know i can find one in the same general area of price, . What's got me wondering about this is due to the last time i drove a 20g car it seemed to spool okay, but recently i've been hearing from a guy i met from here on tuners that lives in town that he remembers 20g's being REALLY laggy.. (best i remember they spooled ~ 20+psi by 3500 to full boost before 4k when i drove one some years back) Is my memory serving correctly or can they not make 30psi by 4k RPM? - haven't found one yet, but know i could rather fast if i decide on this route

basically i'm not looking to spend much more than 500 bucks or so on the turbo it's self and i want faster spool than my 57 trim without sacrificing my tune to aid in spooling..some dont' mind it but i hate having to map the ECU to get the turbo in it's operating range..some dont' notice it but i feel the timing and fuel changes during transistion from off to on boost when in daily driving situations (especially at partial throttle opening) and this car is my DD

input??? I haven't kept up on the mitsu turbos really and don't remember too much about them as far as flow in concerned or behaviour, that's why im' making this thread.. I'm really leanign towars teh hx35, but as i said, if i have to deal with 1mm clearance from the radiator to compressor housing or anythign like that i'm more liekly to skip it and go with somethign that fits better

My mods in my profile are all current, looking for the most streetable of these turbos, with the easiest fit on install. No matter what turbo i choose it will run on my externmal gate even if i have to mod the manifold to add the flange

EDIT: somewhere i remember reading that you could get a mitsu turbine wheel taht would fit a garrett t3 (t31 stage III) exhaust turbine housing.. is this right or am i confusing things?

 

[deflator]

I would take the 18g for the price if its the 6sl2. Other than maxing out an e16g, it would be the smallest turbo for your goal. I don't know what it spools at, but its got to be close to, maybe even a little sooner than, the hx35. And you won't have to source a housing for it or rebuild it like you would with the holset.

 

[toofast82]

Either three are capable of your goal, obviously with the 18g and 20g being on its upper threshold. The 7blade hx35s have a 60lb compressor while the 8blade is about 52lb i belive. I know on my last 1g with the hx35 , i had to mount a slimfan on the other side which obiviously you dont want. I dont know how 2g will fit, i also had an internal gate which obviously took some space.
Is there possibly anything in your tune you can do reduce the spool of the 57trim? I dont know if youre running external gate but doing something like this seems to help spoolup as well. I use my old FPRsolenoid in place of the bcs with a boost controller and some ecu coding
External Gate: 5psi Spring Can Hold 30+ Psi - Setup the vacuum lines with just the number 2 manual boost valve. Adjust until you reach 15-18psi. Turn OUT to raise boost. Then install the number 1 boost valve. And adjust like normal (turn IN) to raise
I dont know if you still have your mitsu manifold and oil lines, but if you dont, youll have to buy them, which is a factor. I would say maybe just rebuild the 57trim because you will need no additional other parts. If the fan is an issue, youll have to most likely go with one of the mhi turbos

 

[El Cuervo]

Hey whats up Glen how you doing? Well they are all 400hp capable turbos. Now which one is going to get you there with more ease? For what I read, the HX35 spools almost as fast as an Evo316g. I honestly think its a bit slower but never driven a car with 1 yet. I do know that for regular daily driving. Like: stop and go, groceries, work, trafic, school, etc. the 20g is a bit laggy at start up. My cousin in mexico had a 20g tdo6. I didn't really know too much about it and thought it was normal like that. It does deliver the power very sudden at mid rpms. I remeber because it used to scare the crap out of me. .
I remember you telling me that your car was extremely laggy at low rpms. Remeber when we were heading back to Omaha from Springfield? I told you that I was going to go for the fp18g. Thats still my plan. I'm going for 400 and spare hp. I won't really be racing or stuff like that. Maybe if I move back to mexico, I'll do some road/mountain racing.
I say 18g. Unless you get an hx35 with mitsu flange. Better response but sacrifice top end.
Either way, all 3 sound good and I personally think that they are all great turbos with little lag for the amout of power that they deliver.

 

[JusMX141]

All of your choices are very well-performing and very reliable turbos in my opinion.

A.) I've found a decent looking hx35 that needs the new turbine wheel and shaft installed and balanced (they come with it, but i'm un-sure teh condition of the CHRA besides being told it's good) and this is my first choice but i can't find any direct info on how the fit is on a 2g car with turbonetics manifold and wanting to retain at least the stock main fan. I won't sacrifice cooling for power, plain and simple i prefer reliability over power any day - i can get this for around 400 bucks not counting the repairs needed - it also has a t3 flange and would be a direct bolt up besides DP and IC pipes, but that will change for any of the options i've laid out

This turbo has the most potential of any of your choices, as well as the most turbine housing choices to suit your current setup. However, I'm sure it does pose a problem with the stock fans in place.

B.) Next i found a local 18g (not sure if it's the 6sl2 though) which is roughly the same price but i would be spending a tad extra to get the tubular manifold and o2 housing with it, but i know it would fit straight up and leave me with a manifold to sell or keep for another project. - brand new, 700 bucks with manifold and o2 housing ( or 500 for the turbo alone)

I don't think an 18G will make adequate airflow as a replacement for your 57t. You'll be disappointed.

C.) Next...the 20g i've wanted for sometime.. I know i can find one in the same general area of price, . What's got me wondering about this is due to the last time i drove a 20g car it seemed to spool okay, but recently i've been hearing from a guy i met from here on tuners that lives in town that he remembers 20g's being REALLY laggy.. (best i remember they spooled ~ 20+psi by 3500 to full boost before 4k when i drove one some years back) Is my memory serving correctly or can they not make 30psi by 4k RPM? - haven't found one yet, but know i could rather fast if i decide on this route

With three turbine choices and six (or more) compressor choices, the chances that you and the guy you met from here were talking about the same turbo are slim to none.

My buddy ran a 20G with a TD05H turbine on his '95 TSi AWD for a couple seasons, and it was a HELL of a turbo. Spooled almost as fast as the Evo III 16G it replaced, but made alot more power on top. On the street, you didn't even have to downshift to make power with the stock cams....just step on it and it would come to life in any gear. I would recommend this turbo as the best bolt-on turbo available for someone running under 25psi on their street car, using all the stock oil and coolant lines. Above 25psi the TD05H turbine will most likely become a restriction, which is the main reason my buddy chose to lose his TD05H 20G in favor of a Frank 5 20G with a TD06H turbine....he was running close to the airflow limit of the TD05H turbine.

I actually have a couple different 20G's at my shop if you're interested.

EDIT: somewhere i remember reading that you could get a mitsu turbine wheel taht would fit a garrett t3 (t31 stage III) exhaust turbine housing.. is this right or am i confusing things?

I don't think there's a single Mitsu turbine that mimicks the measurement of a Garrett in any way. Even if there was, the way the housing itself mounts would be completely different from Mitsu to Garrett.

 

[turboglenn]

toofast.. I hace the tune set to help slightly with getting the 57 to spool sooner, so it's not an issue, i just dont' like using that route to excess where i can feel the retarded timing and overfueling while in a part throttle transition.

AS for the boost control i also have mine setup where the boost holds the wastegate shut until the boost is reached, then the solenoid closes letting the other solenoid provide a pulsed boost to open the gate (same thing you're doing basically in that link)

I could keep the 57 and keep digging at it for the power i want, but i'd rather go with something a little better spooling (the 57 trim is slow to build pressure ratio from the get go, it's much better suited for v6 applications or even 8 cylinders)

El cuervo..how ya been? I lost your number in a phone transistion, hit me up with a pm and your info if you read this. The hx35 seems to be a fast spooler with great capabilities (dsm-onster has me sold on them for sure! ) but the one thing i'm really concerned with is the main fan because no matter what slim lines i used in the past i always would overheat when the AC was on And you know how omaha is, AC is a must!

We need to get together for a beer or soemthing one day soon. Call me up tonight if you're bored i'll be around and snow has me not working for a few more days (at least in the painting field) So i'll be fabbing at home in the metal lab

My main goal for the new turbo is to have the most spool by 4k RPM as possible..i would prefer 3500 but dount i'm getting that and 400+ hp without some tuning or nitrous. I really want 450 to the wheels but will be happy to break 400 for at least 1k RPM.

Any other suggestions? The remaining factor is price... no matter what i want to stay in the budget that's laid out by the pricing of previously mentioned turbos i can get

 

[JWoodley]

Read the Holsets threads. Well, not all of them but the first page of 2-5 usually have summaries. Good stuff.

 

[turboglenn]

I've read the holset threads, and although i know what they are capable of, it really doesn't have the info I'm looking for which is how they fit in a 2g car with a turbonetics manifold and stock radiator and fans.

If i knew it would fit perfectly with no troubles i wouldn't have even made this thread, but since i can't find anyone first hand that had pics of what I'm looking to do, i now am thinking about the other options since i know they will fit without getting rid of fans etc..

but i still want to make sure i get something that's along the lines of what i want. I thinking I've ruled out the 18g at this point and am down to the hx35 and a 20g. Since I've found both with t3 flanges at this point it's really a matter of which one's in better shape and fits nicer which I'm leaning towards the 20g honestly, but to be honest I'm always going to regret not getting which ever one i don't get because i really want a first hand comparison of both (don't i just want it all )

My ultimate plans are to land somewhere in the 425 range on the turbo alone and then making it past 500hp with the nitrous. I only want/need about 4-425 for my goals, but i do want to be able to show a dyno sheet of cracking 500 horses even if it is on the bottle

 

[JWoodley]

If you're willing to spend time on all the other parts to support the various setups you listed, aftermarket fans shouldn't be the determining factor on your turbo selection.

Go with the Holset and never look back.

 

[turboglenn]

If you're willing to spend time on all the other parts to support the various setups you listed, aftermarket fans shouldn't be the determining factor on your turbo selection.

Go with the Holset and never look back.

Well, if i could find a set of fans that bolted up firmly and were actually able to keep the car cool on a hot day with the AC running i would get them just because the would most likely look better and give me more room. But over the last few years i've used everything i could find from SPAL, to slim-line and other brands, the worst thing that happened was the ones that used the little "zip-sticks" through the radiator to mount, actually wore a hole in my radiator in 2 spots making it junk, then none of them ever kept up in the cooling dept.

I wish it were so simple, but having the request of a fully functioning daily driver is one of my key objectives in the build and always has been, which is why this last summer i procured 2 OEM fans and a new radiator and complteley re-built my IC pipes around them so i could have faith in my cooling system again. IT's been working great since, and i dont' wantto give that up. There's pleny of turbos that will fit with the OEM fans and if i have to go with "choice #2 or 3" as far as turbos are concerned, i will, only to be sure that my car's sooling system will keep up with 100* outside temps and rush hour traffic with the air on.

 

[dsmmatt28]

Well glen Im on straight e85 I put down 462 hp and 400 tq on a bws259. This is one 255hp. I ran out of fuel pump @483hp this was at29psi. I just bought another 255 and will be going to a dual pump setup. This is on the dsm turbine housing. Im going to a t3 set up soon and should see 550hp same boost level which is 27psi right now. Im seeing full boost by 37-3900 rpm with the dsm turbine housing. Im sure with the t3 it will be a bit more laggy but thats fine with me. I would go with a borg warner for the win or holset.

 

[aero_sallee]

I can't recall how much different the turbonetics manifold places things. Here is how an Hx40 fits in the BEP housing with one stock fan located on the drivers side.

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[toofast82]

It doesn't run hot with the fan on the driver side only? I would think on 1g it would at least with both hoses on passenger side.
Well you know the 20g will fit for sure! Plus you can always upgrade to any compressor wheel later up to a 60-1 in the 20g compressor housing making a hybrid. You'll be pushing that 20g pretty hard above 425+whp though.

 

[turboglenn]

What about a 20g with a tdo5 housing/turbine?

that seems to be what's available right now but i can't find any info on that combo except for remembering that the 16g to 20g conversion kit would make this combo.

with that pic, i can say i must pass on an hx35, that was the fan i had off originally for the to4e install and the one that no matter what aftermarket fan i used would still overheat. (that sucks)

 

[toofast82]

the big16g,18g,20g all have the same exducer with different inducers not needing machining of the cartridge but will need comp housing machining. the s16g has a smaller exducer so then you would need the housing machined. the tdo5h turbine wheel doesnt quite have the capability to support the 18g or 20g at real high boost 25+psi. the 20g wheel obviously is more efficient in a tdo6 comp cover versus the stock appearing tdo5h but the bastard 20gs are capable of 400+whp

 

[jrohner]

the bastard 20gs are capable of 400+whp

A normal untouched Evo 3 16G is capable of 400+whp too though. I drive my car every day, even in the snow, ice, and below zero temps, so it's obviously a reliable tune and setup (except my stupid Fidanza 6-puck that already broke in less than 1 oil change). With a few internal changes to my car, I dont think 450+ would be out of reach.

 

[toofast82]

I dont disagree as a few have been making 400whp+ on the e316g with e85 and yours is one of them! Congrats on the dyno as well! Jrohner, I am curios how much timing you were running on the dyno at 22psi on the e85? Curious as i will be switching to it this season.

 

[jrohner]

I think the timing was around 23 or 24 at 6 grand; I'm not on my laptop so I can't look. I only have around 150psi of compression.

Boost on the street before the dyno was upper 20's at 27-2800RPMS tapering to around 22 before peak hp. I can get up to over 30psi at around 3 grand and it still just tapers to 22-23.

I also run fairly lean (relative to what others run), gas afr numbers of mid to upper 12's. I tune by e85 afr numbers (8.5:1). My car doesn't like the afr's much richer than that.

 

[turboglenn]

Yea, I cant' wait to get somethign on here. then i think i'm having my 57 trim turned into a 60-1 since im not going to just let it go to waste and I've found a setup that will let me keep my T3 flanged manifold. Now i'm just searching hte couch for pennies so i can get my turbo

Not really that bad, but waitong on contractors to pay me(hoping some will before the first of Feb)

In the mean time i will dig up, machine and fab everything i need to install it before it gets here. (all stuff i can do for free with things laying around my shop)

That way i can get it put in on one evening and be out tuning the next morning

So you can share in my suspence of waiting on money, you'll have to wait until i've got it installed to see what i've chosen.

Please keep the discussion alive though as with everything i've found in my search i will probably get the other option for my RWD project that i'm stacking parts for. A few years down the line yet, but it's never too early to staert saving parts I've been collecting parts for it for a few years now and i almost have a full sare running motor now and due to bad luck i have a spare E6k when it's back from repair

 

[toofast82]

Jrohner, on your setup, do you adjust your global injector size up 20-30% or are you saying you tune your a/f really rich 8.5:1 to make the fuel compensation. Ive heard some say the latter is better for part throttle driving? I see Turboglenn, that you run the e85 as well, whats your input?
I do notice the MHI turbos make shitloads of torque on these dynos as a side note

 

[jrohner]

Jrohner, on your setup, do you adjust your global injector size up 20-30% or are you saying you tune your a/f really rich 8.5:1 to make the fuel compensation. Ive heard some say the latter is better for part throttle driving? I see Turboglenn, that you run the e85 as well, whats your input?
I do notice the MHI turbos make shitloads of torque on these dynos as a side note

Changing the fuel maps alone for E85 does not work because the fuel maps are ignored when in closed loop mode. 8.5:1 is not rich for E85; it's the same as 12.75:1 for gas. Stoich on E85 is 9.765:1, where it is 14.7:1 for gas. Closed-loop cruising I run around 11.5:1 (over 17:1 gas afr) to get better fuel mileage.

I take the injector size and divide it by about 1.40, so my 750's I have set at around 535 or 540.

 

[turboglenn]

toofast...what is it about my e85 tune is it that you want ot know? timing, afr?

I was using similar timing numbers..about 23* at peak torque (~4500RPM) and climbing to about 27 by redline ( 8k RPM) and being at 25* by 5500 or 6k.

I was running at 11.5 - 12:1 on an AEM wideband reading gasoline values and converting across the AEM chart for the ethanol value. I ran about as lean as 16.2 - 16.4 for duel savings, i didn't try to get much leaner than that just so it wouldn't stubmble by over leaning because of the crap universal o2 i chose last tiem i picked a narrow band for it.

Jrohner can you clarify if the wideband you're using is set for gasoline and reading 8.5:1 or if it's setup to display ethanol values? Or are you converting from a lambda reading that's being displayed?

 

[turboglenn]

So, i have a question, out of these two exhaust housings and turbines how would you rate the flow and which one is higher flowing

Option A.) HX35 (don't know turbine specs but i'm sure you guys do) in a BEP T3 .55a/r housing

Option B.) Tdo5h in a T3 flanged 10cm^ housing (hahn super 20g chra and wheels with a t3 flange hotside)

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Im almost positive the HX35 will flow more. What housing does the 20g have?

James

 

[toofast82]

They say the bolt on .55ar housing has the capability to max out the 8blade(52lb) and most likely not the 7blade(60lb) hx35.
I believe a 10cm housing is equivalent to a .70ar(i forget) which i would have to imagine is more than enough to max a 20g
I ran across a 25g/tdo6sl2 the other day, i was kinda curious how something like this would work as far as spool/power? Nobody runs 25g for some reason but i guess there are a lot of options in its power range, but usually 25g is matched to tdo7 turbine.
Turbocharger 4G63T Mitsubishi EVO3 VR4 Eclipse TD06-25G - eBay (item 280297601137 end time Jan-26-09 08:47:44 PST)
Theres also the .70ar t3in/mitsu out for the holset or garrett
Tim's Turbos - Turbo Rebuilding - Steel Turbine Housing - T3 Inlet