The 16g Drag Race Discussion Thread

[TSIMonsteR]

So, how are you stroker guys liking your 16gs?

1g threw a rod and I found a decent deal on a stroker longblock. Should be interesting on the Big 16g

 

[Phil1320]

Figured I'd bump the thread with an update on my 16g car. These are the things Im changing in prep to run it this weekend at Island Dragway.

• In the middle of a trans swap to awd-automatic. I pulled all the parts from a 92 Talon AWD this last week. A buddy of mine welded the center diff and Im planning to reassemble the trans tomorrow and have it in the car thursday. Going to run the stock converter and spray it out of the hole. Shifting will be via the "kiggly manumatic" method of rewiring the oem shifter switch into the noids.
  
• I'v obtained an assortment of jets for my nitrous fogger ranging from 100hp to 150hp. So I should be able to add significant power next time out.
  
• A set of Rota Slipstreams in 16x7 fell into my lap, but need to be stripped and refinished before mounting the hoosiers. They are 14.6lb each compared to the 2G GST wheels I was running at 17.8lb each. Almost 13lb of rotating weight removed.
  
• Weekend days I can run without exhaust, so Im planning to drop the catback to save about 24lb.
  
• Fuel: I have over 2 gallons of 38/62% meth/E85 mix left from last time in a sealed metal can. Im planning to stick with the 38% methanol mix since Im maxed out on injector. Im going to move the fuel pressure from 40psi to 47psi to richen it up significantly.

Hopefully the track prep will be decent on sat/sun during the daytime compared to the last time out on a friday night street night (ice skating rink). This will be my first foray into automatic trans so who knows what will happen. I'm hopeful that if everything works out as planned and the car comes out hard, the ET should improve significantly even at the same power as last time. (seeing how my best ET was on a pathetic 1.699). With another big jump in power from more nitrous things could get interesting in a hurry!

A few of us were hoping to see you at E-town this past weekend. Obviously you weren't ready for that. Sounds like things are coming along. Honestly though, I wish you weren't going to AT. As much as I know that the English car inspires you, and that car does rip, going to AT literally takes all the skill out of driving the car down the strip, and with wider ratios, the cars just dont sound as good either. Not discounting AT runs of any sort, and I understand the reliability factor here. This is just my own opinion....for me, you take away shifting, and you just took away the only involvement I have in getting my car down the strip along with any skill that goes along with that.

Good luck and I hope you lay down some serious numbers!

 

[TSIMonsteR]

A few of us were hoping to see you at E-town this past weekend. Obviously you weren't ready for that. Sounds like things are coming along. Honestly though, I wish you weren't going to AT. As much as I know that the English car inspires you, and that car does rip, going to AT literally takes all the skill out of driving the car down the strip, and with wider ratios, the cars just dont sound as good either. Not discounting AT runs of any sort, and I understand the reliability factor here. This is just my own opinion....for me, you take away shifting, and you just took away the only involvement I have in getting my car down the strip along with any skill that goes along with that.

Good luck and I hope you lay down some serious numbers!

I disagree. The only part of drag racing that requires skill is the launch. I would argue that launching an auto is just as, if not more difficult in a real race.

Anyway, its an opinion I suppose, but I still don't think shifting requires much skill.

 

[Nate Crisman]

A few of us were hoping to see you at E-town this past weekend. Obviously you weren't ready for that. Sounds like things are coming along. Honestly though, I wish you weren't going to AT. As much as I know that the English car inspires you, and that car does rip, going to AT literally takes all the skill out of driving the car down the strip, and with wider ratios, the cars just dont sound as good either. Not discounting AT runs of any sort, and I understand the reliability factor here. This is just my own opinion....for me, you take away shifting, and you just took away the only involvement I have in getting my car down the strip along with any skill that goes along with that.

Good luck and I hope you lay down some serious numbers!

For me...going down the dragstrip and the ACT of driving is not at all exciting. I just want to see the timeslip as proof of the experiment. For me, the whole DSM thing is the fun of building and thinking. Figuring out an ideal setup, an ideal tune, diagnosing the issues, doing internet research, and most of all...conversation with the community. The driving, IMHO, is only the means to the end. In complete honesty...when Im sitting in the staging lane this is what's going through my mind: "lets get this run over with so I can get the timeslip....and hopefully I don't screw it up". I could bypass the "driving" part without any qualms.

Honestly, if I knew someone that would be available at my whim, that's 100+lb lighter than me and could drive as well or better; I'd have no trouble stepping aside from the driving. That would allow me to video/still shoot the runs (since noone seems to be able to accomplish that well) and have a more level head when making setup/tuning decisions. Then again, Im a glory hound at heart, so I don't think I would be able to talk about the car in the same light if I wasn't the one driving.

Anyway, I think the auto will end up being significantly faster in ET than the stick trans. Especially seeing how all the stick trans I have available to use are junk old parts car trans that are worn out and are suspect. And hell-no am I spending a dime on having a manual trans rebuilt or upgraded. And Im going to be well over the torque capacity of cheap single disc clutches pretty soon and likewise there is no way in hell Im dishing out the money for a twin disk clutch.

It makes fiscal sense too: I'll profit at least $700 on selling my manual trans stuff after swapping in the "free" automatic parts. ACT clutch, fidanza flywheel, 4bolt rear, aluminum Xcase, fresh axles, a decent stock trans w/ welded diff and VCE sleeve. I can then use that $700 to purchase the 4 port nitrous kit and 2000cc injectors that I so greatly desire.


Anyway...you and I are on totally different pages when it comes to how we like to enjoy this hobby. In your side, it's all personal with how you like to modify & drive and your "path" to getting there has to be your way. On my side, it's all about the #'s and timeslip....how I get there isn't as important to me. For instance; I know you are having heavy debate about the 14b vs 16g thing. For me...it was no major decision, I went with 16g and didn't sweat it (knowing I can always swap back to a 14 at any time I want). Niether way is right or wrong...just different. We both value different things and choose different compromises to suit our goals.


English's lil-auto car: yes....I really am basing my combo on that specific car. Haven't you noticed that he's going 10.0 and 10.1 consistently with what is effectively the same mph, same power, similar engine setup as I'm going 10.7's. Even if I could SLAM the gear changes and cut consistent 1.4's...I'd still be far away from knocking on the 9 second door. The automatic is the superior drag trans IMHO regardless of driver skill. The lower breakage, superior consistency, and cheaper cost are all gravy. I feel the Auto will ET better above all else, and ET records are what Im chasing.

 

[Phil1320]

I disagree. The only part of drag racing that requires skill is the launch. I would argue that launching an auto is just as, if not more difficult in a real race.

Anyway, its an opinion I suppose, but I still don't think shifting requires much skill.

I disagree. I was just at E-town and you don't have to sit and watch long to see who can and who can't shift well. It's not like you have to be a genius to execute shifts well, but there is a definite knack for it, you have it, or you don't.

There is some skill involved in the launch of course. But, ever since I put the stutterbox in, the skill level is not as high. I've relinquished partial control of the launch to the computer, end of story there. I won't argue with it's consistency, that's great, but, I'm doing less to launch the car then I was when I had to set the revs myself.

So, toss the AT into the picture, now the computer is shifting for me....so I'm sitting there with my right foot pinned to the floor---ok, that's normal. But, now my left foot is just sitting there doing nothing, and my right hand is doing the same. If I'm running a manual transmission, My right hand and left foot move 4 times during the run---not much skill in that maybe. But, it's when you shift as well, and I make that decision, not the computer. Again, maybe that's not skill to you, but there's aptitude involved.

All in all, this is not an AT bashing session. I have respect for all the AT runs. I stated in my post that it "was my opinion." And that's all it is. And you know what opinions are like.

For me...going down the dragstrip and the ACT of driving is not at all exciting. I just want to see the timeslip as proof of the experiment. For me, the whole DSM thing is the fun of building and thinking. Figuring out an ideal setup, an ideal tune, diagnosing the issues, doing internet research, and most of all...conversation with the community. The driving, IMHO, is only the means to the end. In complete honesty...when Im sitting in the staging lane this is what's going through my mind: "lets get this run over with so I can get the timeslip....and hopefully I don't screw it up". I could bypass the "driving" part without any qualms.

Honestly, if I knew someone that would be available at my whim, that's 100+lb lighter than me and could drive as well or better; I'd have no trouble stepping aside from the driving. That would allow me to video/still shoot the runs (since noone seems to be able to accomplish that well) and have a more level head when making setup/tuning decisions. Then again, Im a glory hound at heart, so I don't think I would be able to talk about the car in the same light if I wasn't the one driving.

Anyway, I think the auto will end up being significantly faster in ET than the stick trans. Especially seeing how all the stick trans I have available to use are junk old parts car trans that are worn out and are suspect. And hell-no am I spending a dime on having a manual trans rebuilt or upgraded. And Im going to be well over the torque capacity of cheap single disc clutches pretty soon and likewise there is no way in hell Im dishing out the money for a twin disk clutch.

It makes fiscal sense too: I'll profit at least $700 on selling my manual trans stuff after swapping in the "free" automatic parts. ACT clutch, fidanza flywheel, 4bolt rear, aluminum Xcase, fresh axles, a decent stock trans w/ welded diff and VCE sleeve. I can then use that $700 to purchase the 4 port nitrous kit and 2000cc injectors that I so greatly desire.


Anyway...you and I are on totally different pages when it comes to how we like to enjoy this hobby. In your side, it's all personal with how you like to modify & drive and your "path" to getting there has to be your way. On my side, it's all about the #'s and timeslip....how I get there isn't as important to me. For instance; I know you are having heavy debate about the 14b vs 16g thing. For me...it was no major decision, I went with 16g and didn't sweat it (knowing I can always swap back to a 14 at any time I want). Niether way is right or wrong...just different. We both value different things and choose different compromises to suit our goals.


English's lil-auto car: yes....I really am basing my combo on that specific car. Haven't you noticed that he's going 10.0 and 10.1 consistently with what is effectively the same mph, same power, similar engine setup as I'm going 10.7's. Even if I could SLAM the gear changes and cut consistent 1.4's...I'd still be far away from knocking on the 9 second door. The automatic is the superior drag trans IMHO regardless of driver skill. The lower breakage, superior consistency, and cheaper cost are all gravy. I feel the Auto will ET better above all else, and ET records are what Im chasing.

I hear you Nate and as I said above this isn't an AT bash session. I understand all of your reasons for doing it and I appreciate that. L English is a good model for speed on small turbos with AT.

Yes, we have different ideas about alot of this. And yes, I'm all about the driving end of things, I love to drive cars, no matter what kind. So, to me, with out the journey, who cares what the end result is. It's the journey that makes accomplishments satisfying to me. However, I will alter my scenario in some ways as to produce more rapid improvements as time just passes too fast and my slow approach has actually kept me from being super interested anymore.

Like I said, wish we saw you at E-town. You've got my support on your endeavors in the DSM world no matter what you choose man, so don't take it personal, again, it's just my opinion. Ultimately, just wanna see you go fast and hit what you want to hit, but, with records in your eyes....you enjoy some type of journey in all this......otherwise, you wouldn't do it

 

[Nate Crisman]

Oh yeah, I enjoy the journey. I'm just saying that my journey to reach a specific goal is very flexible and I'm more than willing to take the road less traveled to hit he goal (most important goal: 9.973 or better on a real 16g)

Seriously, I will have a very very "weird" combo:
Auto awd w/ pretty much stock parts
Generic 16g
Stock motor
Complicated dual stage nitrous as a major power adder.
Methanol fueled

Who's ever run that combo? Hahaha. I like uncharted territory. That's my journey, but it's not the driving, it's the figuring out the setup that I love.

I wish I had run at etown. But the money and time just didnt work out.

 

[e85_4g63]

the money and time just didnt work out.

DSM(ing) at it's FINEST!

 

[Phil1320]

Oh yeah, I enjoy the journey. I'm just saying that my journey to reach a specific goal is very flexible and I'm more than willing to take the road less traveled to hit he goal (most important goal: 9.973 or better on a real 16g)

Seriously, I will have a very very "weird" combo:
Auto awd w/ pretty much stock parts
Generic 16g
Stock motor
Complicated dual stage nitrous as a major power adder.
Methanol fueled

Who's ever run that combo? Hahaha. I like uncharted territory. That's my journey, but it's not the driving, it's the figuring out the setup that I love.

I wish I had run at etown. But the money and time just didnt work out.

Well, then there it is = 9.97

I'm pretty confident you can pull it off.

The combo may be weird, but, like you say, it's the path least travelled, and opposite of me, it will probably get you significant results within a fairly short period of time.

Well, maybe I'll catch up with you at E-town next year.

Good luck if you run again before the year is out....

 

[TSIMonsteR]

All in all, this is not an AT bashing session. I have respect for all the AT runs. I stated in my post that it "was my opinion." And that's all it is. And you know what opinions are like.

No worries, just sharing the opposite opinion.

Either way, I think the stock stall of an AT and a 16g were made for each other. Perfect combo for a competitive weekend warrior.

Once I get the 1g back up and running, its going to be nice to have a 5speed 16g car for direct comparison. Both cars are 2.3 strokers, the A/T with a E3 16g (while I'm rebuilding the holset) and the 1g with a Big 16g... both 9:1. Neither car runs right now, so I am pretty excited to be getting the 1g done this weekend.

Hopefully I can clock off some times as impressive as your 14b time with both of them.

 

[TSimage]

My AT shifts like an MT.. Only a bazillion times faster... Whats the difference?

 

[Phil1320]

No worries, just sharing the opposite opinion.

Either way, I think the stock stall of an AT and a 16g were made for each other. Perfect combo for a competitive weekend warrior.

Once I get the 1g back up and running, its going to be nice to have a 5speed 16g car for direct comparison. Both cars are 2.3 strokers, the A/T with a E3 16g (while I'm rebuilding the holset) and the 1g with a Big 16g... both 9:1. Neither car runs right now, so I am pretty excited to be getting the 1g done this weekend.

Hopefully I can clock off some times as impressive as your 14b time with both of them.

That's cool.....without your experience I'll take your word for it. No doubt a very consistent weekend warrior as well.

Ahh, so you have two cars.....that's great. I would definitely be interested in your comparo. I would entertain an additional car that was A/T to compare as well. The more you guys talk about it, the more interesting it becomes to me. I'm actually excited for you to get the 1G done this weekend as well. Thanks for the props on my run. I would imagine with the set ups you've got on either car that you could run mid-elevens. Good luck and thanks for opening my eyes to a wider spectrum!

My AT shifts like an MT.. Only a bazillion times faster... Whats the difference?

Fair enough, can't argue with fast shifts...I actually didn't realize the stock DSM A/T can shift so fast.

Well, as I said before, the obvious difference is a human shifting vs. the computer and trans doing it on their own. But, keep talking, I'm listening.

 

[Nate Crisman]

My auto swap is 95% done, I just had to hunt down an auto-specific rear motor mount bracket today. I'm planning to button up the car tonight and hit the track tomorrow to test it out. I'm going to run the same 38% methanol fuel mix, 50shot nitrous, and boost level as last time on the 5speed, so we should have an interesting comparison to the last 10.72@132 run. I'm then planning to double the nitrous amount.

Wish me luck, will have a full report with video tomorrow night.

 

[Phil1320]

My auto swap is 95% done, I just had to hunt down an auto-specific rear motor mount bracket today. I'm planning to button up the car tonight and hit the track tomorrow to test it out. I'm going to run the same 38% methanol fuel mix, 50shot nitrous, and boost level as last time on the 5speed, so we should have an interesting comparison to the last 10.72@132 run. I'm then planning to double the nitrous amount.

Wish me luck, will have a full report with video tomorrow night.

Wow you are working FAST! Nice! It will definitely be an interesting comparison.

Good luck!

 

[habitatguy187]

Looking forward to this. Good job Nate.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I took the automatic swap to the track today, ended up with a couple 10.6's @ 128 with nitrous on and a 11.1 @ 122 without spray. Not to shabby for the first attempt with a new driveline setup!

Link to full track report thread

 

[WADADLIG_EVO]

Subscribed....Good reading those with this turbo.

 

[Phil1320]

I took the automatic swap to the track today, ended up with a couple 10.6's @ 128 with nitrous on and a 11.1 @ 122 without spray. Not to shabby for the first attempt with a new driveline setup!

Link to full track report thread

Forgot to mention that 11.1 pass all turbo is a strong run......

 

[Nate Crisman]

Forgot to mention that 11.1 pass all turbo is a strong run......

Yeah, not too bad with "powerglide" gearing. I shifted 1st to 3rd on that run by mistake. The car was in one long gear from like 150ft to 1320ft! Im pretty sure it will go 10.9 or 10.8 without spray.

 

[Phil1320]

Yeah, not too bad with "powerglide" gearing. I shifted 1st to 3rd on that run by mistake. The car was in one long gear from like 150ft to 1320ft! Im pretty sure it will go 10.9 or 10.8 without spray.

No kidding! Wow.....hope you find the time to make an all turbo pass again.

10 seconds on a 16g of any kind is elite territory.

I guess playing with the E316g thus far and seeing what you've done with it should give you a good idea of how tough it would be to be running like you are on the 14b huh?

Good stuff Nate!

 

[TSimage]

Fair enough, can't argue with fast shifts...I actually didn't realize the stock DSM A/T can shift so fast.

Well, as I said before, the obvious difference is a human shifting vs. the computer and trans doing it on their own. But, keep talking, I'm listening.

Thats just the thing...

My Auto is shifted by me. Its full manual bodied auto. There is Zero computer interference.

 

[FonZ454]

So the last 2 weekends I've made 3 attempts to go to the track and everytime's been rained out :-\ Waste of time and the track's closed for the year. Big disappointment.

The car's definitely the strongest it's been, and with ECMlink V3's boost by gear, the car's holding 30-32psi at 7000rpms. I was hoping to see an increase in trap speed, and a damn 10 second pass!

Now the question is... winter time, let the car sit as is with a few new mods, or HTA30r time....

 

[Nate Crisman]

So the last 2 weekends I've made 3 attempts to go to the track and everytime's been rained out :-\ Waste of time and the track's closed for the year. Big disappointment.

The car's definitely the strongest it's been, and with ECMlink V3's boost by gear, the car's holding 30-32psi at 7000rpms. I was hoping to see an increase in trap speed, and a damn 10 second pass!

Now the question is... winter time, let the car sit as is with a few new mods, or HTA30r time....

Fonz: Any chance if seeing a log of before dsmlink boost control and one after? I too tried using it to help the 16g dropped on my gvr4 (granted small 16g) with honestly zilch for results. I'd love to see why it it helped you and not me if I set it differently.

 

[TSIfreek]

David Bushur should get a 16g dsm class going for the shoot out. With how fast guys are going on these things I dont see why not as the class would fill every year. There are really no "stock appearing" dsms any more as they have all turned into race cars. My car would pass for the stock appearing but is no way stock.

 

[Nate Crisman]

He did this year! Only rules were
A: has to look like 16g.
B: no nitrous

 

[FonZ454]

Fonz: Any chance if seeing a log of before dsmlink boost control and one after? I too tried using it to help the 16g dropped on my gvr4 (granted small 16g) with honestly zilch for results. I'd love to see why it it helped you and not me if I set it differently.

I'll see if I can find any tomorrow. It might be just that I'm spiking higher... The car would break up after a shift (stock ignition), so I have first and 2nd gear set to 27-30psi, and 3rd and up spike 37(!!) and settles to 30-32. I have the WG set to 100% at about 5000rpm and up so the thing is trying to stay shut as much as possible I'd guess. Or maybe it's just the colder weather we've been having latley? Hard to say if it's 100% the reason, but I do like it.

David Bushur should get a 16g dsm class going for the shoot out. With how fast guys are going on these things I dont see why not as the class would fill every year. There are really no "stock appearing" dsms any more as they have all turned into race cars. My car would pass for the stock appearing but is no way stock.

"DST" is a stock appearing class. The only rules really where a td05h/t25 appearing turbo and no spray. I don't know what the cars were running this year, but many were gutted and fully built, but all it took for me was an unported evo3 and a stock motor to win the class