The 16g Drag Race Discussion Thread

[jm1080]

Don't be surprised by the ammount of timing you have to pull. The 16G spools up at low rpm, and timing needs to be lower at low rpm. Timing should also be lower at max boost, so hitting 25psi at 4k rpm doesn't leave much room for timing. For example, my timing map with a 16g spiking to 29psi at 4500rpm has timing at 1*, yes that's ONE degree. And that's with E85. I also have 9.0 compression. My timing ramps up to 16* by 7500rpm @ 21psi, so it looks normal up there. Be flexible, don't be swayed by the tuners who brag about high timing. Most of the time a guy bragging about high timing numbers is either beyond MBT or his setup has backpressure issues.

So what you are saying is at 2.5k rpm you are building boost 0-1psi (for example), you would have 1* total timing? (logging timing in dsmlink). I know low timing before turbo starts to boost will help aid in better spool. Then you would run 17-21* timing at 3500rpm? (full boost). Once your in full boost, you drop timing? To lets say 10*?

This is all for example, just trying to clarify how you tune your timing to have better times.

For instance for I, raise timing while in boost and have max timing through the pull and just see make sure it stays steady at 19-21* timing (for example).

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Post a log. There are tuning geniuses on here that will pick that thing to the bone. The timing that you can run on these pistons will generally be lower then you see people run on there stock ones, especially when using pump gas. The higher compression aftermarket pistons can usually take the added heat caused from running lower timing, to an extent of course.

The times that you are running are great for a full weight 3000lb colt. Once we get the tuning down, and the boost up, your car will fly.

If you get the log to us soon, we might be able to help you improve the tune for Wednesday.

I'll post some logs as soon as I get to the shop tomorrow. I was busy today, so I didn't think about posting one, but I did find time to weld a 3/8 NPT bung into my UICP.

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[pneumo]

So what you are saying is at 2.5k rpm you are building boost 0-1psi (for example), you would have 1* total timing? (logging timing in dsmlink). I know low timing before turbo starts to boost will help aid in better spool. Then you would run 17-21* timing at 3500rpm? (full boost). Once your in full boost, you drop timing? To lets say 10*?

What? Just read what I wrote, don't try to read between the lines. At 25psi and 4500rpm timing is 1*. At 21psi and 7500rpm my timing is 16*. I did not say what my boost or timing is doing at 2500rpm- I'm not sure where you got that. The timing shown by my logger matches the timing map in the ecu. I don't use DSmlink.

Basically
when boost is low, timing is high.
when boost is high, timing is low.
when rpm is low, timing is low.
when rpm is high, timing is high.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

If this worked, here are eight 1/4 mile passes. Each with slight differences to the fuel table. I actually turned my MBC down about 3/4 of a turn about halfway through the night, but I'm not sure it changed much. I never remember to watch the gauge.

Ps. I just updated my mod list with everything I could think of.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/members/colt4g63-also-96249.html

 

[Bricktop]

pneumo pmed

 

[91-gsx]

If this worked, here are eight 1/4 mile passes. Each with slight differences to the fuel table. I actually turned my MBC down about 3/4 of a turn about halfway through the night, but I'm not sure it changed much. I never remember to watch the gauge.

Ps. I just updated my mod list with everything I could think of.
DSM Forums - View Profile: Colt4G63 also

This is what I would do first, to get rid of the knock:

Fuel(RPM):
5000 -10
5500 -11
6000 -11
6500 -12
7000 -12
7500 -12
8000 -12

Timing(RPM):
6000 -12
6500 -7
7000 -4
7500 -2
8000 -1

So you are basically adding about 2-3% of the fuel back from 5500rpm and up. And, your removing a degree of timing from 6000rpm and up. This should get rid of the onset of knock, and clear it through the run. After you apply this tune, you should try it out so that we know what we need to change next.

By the way, at the end of the run your at 11-12* of timing because of the knock. That does not mean you have to run that low of a timing value, it just means you have to stop the knock before it drops it to 11-12* of timing.

Next step is to try out the new tune and report back. Then we will go on to get rid of any left over knock, or start adding boost.

 

[peon_slayer]

i just found this post i feel retarded for not seeing this earlier.... only problem is, does a FP 68hta count as a 16G here the turbo is a td05 6 blade? if so then im in!

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Ok thanks 91-GSX. I'll make the adjustments, and check the air charge temp while I'm at it. I hope the timing is the answer, because I just pulled all that fuel on the last few trips to the track because I was going off the scale of my wideband. I think that when I log 10.2:1, the gauge reads 10:1, and the logs were reading 10.2:1 perfectly flat all through my pulls.

Attached is a log from last year when I was FWD. It knocked when I was doing a burnout in second, but not so bad during the run. You can see how the wideband was pegged rich. It used to pull pretty knock free unless I had the added weight of a passenger.

After I added the extra load of AWD, it started knocking up top , and I realized that my AFR's didn't just magically come out flat as a board, so I started pulling fuel. It seemed to help to an extent, because I had some scary amouts of timing pulled before that.

EDIT: Comparing those changes to my 2009 log, it looks like those adjustments will put me right off the scale again on my AFR. But maybe not, now that I compare it to ones fom May of this year. Maybe I got a little lean happy and started leaning it too far.

 

[91-gsx]

Ok thanks 91-GSX. I'll make the adjustments, and check the air charge temp while I'm at it. I hope the timing is the answer, because I just pulled all that fuel on the last few trips to the track because I was going off the scale of my wideband. I think that when I log 10.2:1, the gauge reads 10:1, and the logs were reading 10.2:1 perfectly flat all through my pulls.

Attached is a log from last year when I was FWD. It knocked when I was doing a burnout in second, but not so bad during the run. You can see how the wideband was pegged rich. It used to pull pretty knock free unless I had the added weight of a passenger.

After I added the extra load of AWD, it started knocking up top , and I realized that my AFR's didn't just magically come out flat as a board, so I started pulling fuel. It seemed to help to an extent, because I had some scary amouts of timing pulled before that.

EDIT: Comparing those changes to my 2009 log, it looks like those adjustments will put me right off the scale again on my AFR.

The timing will make much more of a difference when it comes to knock and higher boost levels. As long as your in the 10-11:1a/f ratio area on pump gas, your ok. The extra fuel I was recommending you add, helps keep timing up, and helps in cooling as well. But, your not exactly running lean. So you could very well make just the timing adjustments and see how the car likes it.

The extra weight of a passenger or AWD system does put an extra load on the engine. Most of us do not swap from FWD to AWD, but I am sure that the added load would have some sort of bearing on the tune. If the tune is closer to the peformance oriented side, or the edge, the engine can knock at times with passengers in the car due to the added load. You can tune the car with an added safety buffer in anticipation of those events.

Edit*
By the way, I was taking a look at your global fuel adjustment and your dead time. The global fuel adjustment should be at -31%, and the deadtime should be set at 315. Have you tried that before and found it not to work well?

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Edit*
By the way, I was taking a look at your global fuel adjustment and your dead time. The global fuel adjustment should be at -31%, and the deadtime should be set at 315. Have you tried that before and found it not to work well?

Yeah I tried that and it wasn't working well, but two years into my tune I installed a different fuel pressure gauge and discovered my fuel pressure might be about 8 psi higher than expected (depending which gauge is right). I started to re-tune with lower pressure, but then decided to just go with it rather than start from scratch.

Not that it makes sense that I'm pulling less fuel globally with higher pressure, but my STFT hangs near middle in most situations, and when it does actually climb above 185* the LTFT's stay put. Actually when I pulled that couple percent globally, it was due to my LTFT's being -2 -3 across the board.

 

[91-gsx]

Yeah I tried that and it wasn't working well, but two years into my tune I installed a different fuel pressure gauge and discovered my fuel pressure might be about 8 psi higher than expected (depending which gauge is right). I started to re-tune with lower pressure, but then decided to just go with it rather than start from scratch.

Not that it makes sense that I'm pulling less fuel globally with higher pressure, but my STFT hangs near middle in most situations, and when it does actually climb above 185* the LTFT's stay put. Actually when I pulled that couple percent globally, it was due to my LTFT's being -2 -3 across the board.

I personally would retune based on the parameters that I know are set. But, my way is not the only way. If your happy with the daily driving part of your tune, then we can continue to work on the WOT settings.

Let us know when you try out the reduced timing. Maybe you can add boost at the track and log a few runs, if your tune is knock free by then.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Yeah, the daily tune isn't perfect, but I'm not sure which brand new gauge to trust. The first one was a Chicago Pneumatic air pressure gauge that I got at Tractor Supply, and the second was a Glowshift 0-100 psi electric fuel pressure gauge that fell three feet onto concrete while it was still brand new in the box. I figure it's ok because worse things probably happen to those things during shipping, but who knows. When I lowered the pressure and set the base settings to the normal starting point, it ran horribly, so I went back to where I had it.

Anyway, I feel like I'm cluttering up the thread; I have my Modis hooked to my air temp sensor, and I adjusted the timing as you suggested, but left the fuel. The wideband gauge reads .2-.3 richer than my logs across the spectrum, so I'm trusting the gauge, and leaving the fuel unchanged for now. If the weather holds out, I'll be at the track tomorrow.

 

[91-gsx]

Yeah, the daily tune isn't perfect, but I'm not sure which brand new gauge to trust. The first one was a Chicago Pneumatic air pressure gauge that I got at Tractor Supply, and the second was a Glowshift 0-100 psi electric fuel pressure gauge that fell three feet onto concrete while it was still brand new in the box. I figure it's ok because worse things probably happen to those things during shipping, but who knows. When I lowered the pressure and set the base settings to the normal starting point, it ran horribly, so I went back to where I had it.

Anyway, I feel like I'm cluttering up the thread; I have my Modis hooked to my air temp sensor, and I adjusted the timing as you suggested, but left the fuel. The wideband gauge reads .2-.3 richer than my logs across the spectrum, so I'm trusting the gauge, and leaving the fuel unchanged for now. If the weather holds out, I'll be at the track tomorrow.

Sounds good. Good luck tomorrow. PM me when you want to continue the tuning process.

 

[TSimage]

i just found this post i feel retarded for not seeing this earlier.... only problem is, does a FP 68hta count as a 16G here the turbo is a td05 6 blade? if so then im in!

Definitely not a 16g.. No more than sleeper 18g or a bastard 20g is...

If it's not a 16g wheel then its a no go.

 

[peon_slayer]

oh cause on fp its considered a 16g with 18g capabilities... fine i feel no love here i shal leave

 

[TSimage]

oh cause on fp its considered a 16g with 18g capabilities... fine i feel no love here i shal leave

You can stay, but bottom line is it isn't a 16G wheel, so how is it a 16g?

IF they made such a comment I am sure it was just as an illustration or a comparison for their customers.

A lot of turbos come in that same exact TD05 Package..

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I did eleven back to back runs with my best 1/4 ET being [email protected] - 60'/1.783 - 1/[email protected].
My best 60' was [email protected] - 60'/1.769 - 1/[email protected].

I figured out why I get knock at the far end of the track. Who wants to buy a 3 year old ebay intercooler in great condition with no leaks? $40.00-OBO Let's see, it was 69F* outside, and my upper intercooler pipe was flowing air that was at least 120F* by the end of the 1/4 mile. That's some real good intercooling right?

I'll post some logs up later, I need sleep.

 

[pneumo]

I did eleven back to back runs with my best 1/4 ET being [email protected] - 60'/1.783 - 1/[email protected].
My best 60' was [email protected] - 60'/1.769 - 1/[email protected].

I figured out why I get knock at the far end of the track. Who wants to buy a 3 year old ebay intercooler in great condition with no leaks? $40.00-OBO Let's see, it was 69F* outside, and my upper intercooler pipe was flowing air that was at least 120F* by the end of the 1/4 mile. That's some real good intercooling right?

I'll post some logs up later, I need sleep.

WHOA! Dang that's some high intake temps!
What were the IAT's at the start of the run? I'm curious to see the temp increase from start to finish.

The logs from my last track outing show my IAT's went from 98*F to 108*F on a 95* day, start to finish. Another log taken later that day shows IAT's went from 114* to 119*. Later in the evening when outside temps cooled down to 85* the IAT's were 100* to 107*. I'm using a 12" X 3.5" core.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

WHOA! Dang that's some high intake temps!
What were the IAT's at the start of the run? I'm curious to see the temp increase from start to finish.

The logs from my last track outing show my IAT's went from 98*F to 108*F on a 95* day, start to finish. Another log taken later that day shows IAT's went from 114* to 119*. Later in the evening when outside temps cooled down to 85* the IAT's were 100* to 107*. I'm using a 12" X 3.5" core.

I was using an ohmeter that captures min/max values so it's not really a log, but the UICP air temps were pretty much ambient, up to around 85F* at the start. My cold air intake was doing it's job, as you can see the temp logged at the MAF drops from 85F* to 68F* by the end of the track, while my UICP was climbing from 84* to 120*. I reset the min/max values after each pass, and the knock was worse on the runs it got the hottest.


EDIT: Added logs

 

[Nate Crisman]

I was able to get down to a 10.7 @ 132 tonight with some major traction problems on a bad 1.699 launch. Ran the same 50shot of nitrous but started mixing methanol into E85 for fuel. Was more aggressive in tuning overall.

Full track report:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/380800-dsmpartout-1g-chemistry-night-island-dragway.html#post152317299

 

[Phil1320]

I was able to get down to a 10.7 @ 132 tonight with some major traction problems on a bad 1.699 launch. Ran the same 50shot of nitrous but started mixing methanol into E85 for fuel. Was more aggressive in tuning overall.

Full track report:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/380800-dsmpartout-1g-chemistry-night-island-dragway.html#post152317299

Getting there, you're going in the right direction anyway

 

[pneumo]

That's a nice improvement!

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I picked up a 600hp PTE front mount last night at around 8:30pm, and by 4:00pm tonight I was back at the track. I only had time to squeeze three passes in.
60'-1.804_1/[email protected]_1/[email protected] already beat my best time, and UICP temps stone cold.
Second pass_60'-1.75_1/[email protected]_1/[email protected] spinning hard in 1st, but with a suprize perfect 1-2 shift that felt like an automatic. I knew I was missing that shift but... "clunk" it was in and boost was still on. I was like "No way!"
Third and last pass_ 60'-1.84_1/[email protected]_1/[email protected].
Intake air temps started to hit about 85*F after the second back to back pass (67* ambient out), so an improvement, but not spetacular. The flow was possibly the biggest help, as my boost pressure was no longer dropping like a stone above 5000 rpm.

That's over .3 seconds and around 3.5mph faster than my previous best and in only three passes! I'm pretty happy with it considering. If I didn't have to leave to go pick up my daughter I might have gone faster. Suddenly high 11s on nothing but pump gas don't seem so unattainable.

Ps. The PTE FMIC... $100 Cha-ching!

 

[Phil1320]

I picked up a 600hp PTE front mount last night at around 8:30pm, and by 4:00pm tonight I was back at the track. I only had time to squeeze three passes in.
60'-1.804_1/[email protected]_1/[email protected] already beat my best time, and UICP temps stone cold.
Second pass_60'-1.75_1/[email protected]_1/[email protected] spinning hard in 1st, but with a suprize perfect 1-2 shift that felt like an automatic. I knew I was missing that shift but... "clunk" it was in and boost was still on. I was like "No way!"
Third and last pass_ 60'-1.84_1/[email protected]_1/[email protected].
Intake air temps started to hit about 85*F after the second back to back pass (67* ambient out), so an improvement, but not spetacular. The flow was possibly the biggest help, as my boost pressure was no longer dropping like a stone above 5000 rpm.

That's over .3 seconds and around 3.5mph faster than my previous best and in only three passes! I'm pretty happy with it considering. If I didn't have to leave to go pick up my daughter I might have gone faster. Suddenly high 11s on nothing but pump gas don't seem so unattainable.

Ps. The PTE FMIC... $100 Cha-ching!

That's a nice improvement especially for not getting a whole night of racing in. Good luck hitting 11's!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Figured I'd bump the thread with an update on my 16g car. These are the things Im changing in prep to run it this weekend at Island Dragway.

• In the middle of a trans swap to awd-automatic. I pulled all the parts from a 92 Talon AWD this last week. A buddy of mine welded the center diff and Im planning to reassemble the trans tomorrow and have it in the car thursday. Going to run the stock converter and spray it out of the hole. Shifting will be via the "kiggly manumatic" method of rewiring the oem shifter switch into the noids.
  
• I'v obtained an assortment of jets for my nitrous fogger ranging from 100hp to 150hp. So I should be able to add significant power next time out.
  
• A set of Rota Slipstreams in 16x7 fell into my lap, but need to be stripped and refinished before mounting the hoosiers. They are 14.6lb each compared to the 2G GST wheels I was running at 17.8lb each. Almost 13lb of rotating weight removed.
  
• Weekend days I can run without exhaust, so Im planning to drop the catback to save about 24lb.
  
• Fuel: I have over 2 gallons of 38/62% meth/E85 mix left from last time in a sealed metal can. Im planning to stick with the 38% methanol mix since Im maxed out on injector. Im going to move the fuel pressure from 40psi to 47psi to richen it up significantly.

Hopefully the track prep will be decent on sat/sun during the daytime compared to the last time out on a friday night street night (ice skating rink). This will be my first foray into automatic trans so who knows what will happen. I'm hopeful that if everything works out as planned and the car comes out hard, the ET should improve significantly even at the same power as last time. (seeing how my best ET was on a pathetic 1.699). With another big jump in power from more nitrous things could get interesting in a hurry!