The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Nate Crisman]

Phil: after seeing the air temp curve on my yellow car, I really think you should look at using an air/water on your talon instead of upgrading the evo8 air/air setup. I was very surprised at how well even the cheapest of cheap & small air/water core actually performed. And since the car isn't a street car, you have no issues at all. The cost is right in the same ballpark as well. If your planning to still run on gasoline then I think you will make the absolute best power with the lowest air temp possible, and that's only going to come from an air/water core. No air/air core is going to come close.

On an ambient temp of about 75*F and running no intake pipe at all (turbo ingesting hot air from radiator)
Boost: Spike to 34.7 falls to 21psi by 7000rpm
AIT: 42* at the line ramping up to 88* at trap
I'm expecting to see even better air temp's next time out with the addition of a cold air intake pipe.

I think I have about $450 max in the air/water setup figuring $150 core, $100 water tank, $55 pump, about $20 in hose/fittings/clamps/connectors. Maybe $100 in the 2 alum pipes and 3 silicone couplings?

 

[Phil1320]

Phil: after seeing the air temp curve on my yellow car, I really think you should look at using an air/water on your talon instead of upgrading the evo8 air/air setup. I was very surprised at how well even the cheapest of cheap & small air/water core actually performed. And since the car isn't a street car, you have no issues at all. The cost is right in the same ballpark as well. If your planning to still run on gasoline then I think you will make the absolute best power with the lowest air temp possible, and that's only going to come from an air/water core. No air/air core is going to come close.

On an ambient temp of about 75*F and running no intake pipe at all (turbo ingesting hot air from radiator)
Boost: Spike to 34.7 falls to 21psi by 7000rpm
AIT: 42* at the line ramping up to 88* at trap
I'm expecting to see even better air temp's next time out with the addition of a cold air intake pipe.

I think I have about $450 max in the air/water setup figuring $150 core, $100 water tank, $55 pump, about $20 in hose/fittings/clamps/connectors. Maybe $100 in the 2 alum pipes and 3 silicone couplings?

You know, I will definitely keep this in consideration at this point. And, true, the car is race only. It does seem that I'm clinging to simplicity in order to promote reliability, daily driver reliability. Granted, we all want reliable set ups I'm sure, but I've probably screwed myself out of some horsepower and possibly getting to certain ET's sooner than I did.

So, I will consider this option for sure. Only 88* at the traps....I'd love to know what mine were......or not.

Were the above numbers on the EVO 3 or on the 14b? Just curious....a 34.7 psi spike is up there!

Thanks for the tip Nate

 

[carfanatic_88]

Were the above numbers on the EVO 3 or on the 14b? Just curious....a 34.7 psi spike is up there!

At the shootout i maxed out my MAP sensor I had a spike of 35.3... Since then i backed it off to about a 32 psi spike.

 

[Nate Crisman]

You know, I will definitely keep this in consideration at this point. And, true, the car is race only. It does seem that I'm clinging to simplicity in order to promote reliability, daily driver reliability. Granted, we all want reliable set ups I'm sure, but I've probably screwed myself out of some horsepower and possibly getting to certain ET's sooner than I did.

So, I will consider this option for sure. Only 88* at the traps....I'd love to know what mine were......or not.

Were the above numbers on the EVO 3 or on the 14b? Just curious....a 34.7 psi spike is up there!

Thanks for the tip Nate

My #'s were with an E3 16g. I would guestimate your 14b @ 21psi through an Evo8 oem air/air core: on the same day as I ran..75* ambient....I would say your AIT is starting around mid 80's at the tree and well over 125*F at the traps.

If my memory serves me, when I was running my Evo8 car...with oem 16g and oem fmic maxed: I was seeing nearly 145*F at the traps (car was 11.9 @ 115 speed)

 

[Phil1320]

At the shootout i maxed out my MAP sensor I had a spike of 35.3... Since then i backed it off to about a 32 psi spike.

Wow, that's up there too. Where does your boost settle after the spike?

My #'s were with an E3 16g. I would guestimate your 14b @ 21psi through an Evo8 oem air/air core: on the same day as I ran..75* ambient....I would say your AIT is starting around mid 80's at the tree and well over 125*F at the traps.

If my memory serves me, when I was running my Evo8 car...with oem 16g and oem fmic maxed: I was seeing nearly 145*F at the traps (car was 11.9 @ 115 speed)

That's exactly where I thought I might be - 125* No doubt the air/water would retain me some power on that second 1/8......

 

[carfanatic_88]

Wow, that's up there too. Where does your boost settle after the spike?

It drops to 28-27 by the end of the gear.

 

[Phil1320]

It drops to 28-27 by the end of the gear.

Fair enough....so it stays up pretty high.....

 

[DJ23GSX]

I've finally gotten my 14b dsm up and running last week. I took her out last night for a little baseline tuning with the 560's and safc and I must say considering the short mod list it pulls pretty good. I am only running 14-16psi at the moment on the stock i/c but ambient temps last night were cool enough I made several back to back pulls no problem. Once I get my boost control/fall off issue under control and tie up some other odd's and end's I'd like to hit the dyno for some baseline numbers. Unfortunately it has a fairly new stock clutch in it that I really don't feel like burning up at the track so maybe next year for that. I've driven/owned many stock to modded dsm's and this car pulls a lot harder than most dsm's i've driven with more mods. I'm hoping this one is one of the freakishly fast ones I've always read about on the forums

 

[Phil1320]

I've finally gotten my 14b dsm up and running last week. I took her out last night for a little baseline tuning with the 560's and safc and I must say considering the short mod list it pulls pretty good. I am only running 14-16psi at the moment on the stock i/c but ambient temps last night were cool enough I made several back to back pulls no problem. Once I get my boost control/fall off issue under control and tie up some other odd's and end's I'd like to hit the dyno for some baseline numbers. Unfortunately it has a fairly new stock clutch in it that I really don't feel like burning up at the track so maybe next year for that. I've driven/owned many stock to modded dsm's and this car pulls a lot harder than most dsm's i've driven with more mods. I'm hoping this one is one of the freakishly fast ones I've always read about on the forums

Awesome! That's great men..... 16psi I think the 14b loves, even 18, but past that it's a love/hate relationship I think Well, let's put it to the test! I'm anxious to see how well it goes for you and how far you'll push it. Be nice to see you and a few others up here with me in the 11's. Not that I'm discounting a low 12 14b car at all....it's just that a few are in that realm which says to me with a bit more time etc., 11's are possible. Keep us posted and good luck

 

[DJ23GSX]

Awesome! That's great men..... 16psi I think the 14b loves, even 18, but past that it's a love/hate relationship I think Well, let's put it to the test! I'm anxious to see how well it goes for you and how far you'll push it. Be nice to see you and a few others up here with me in the 11's. Not that I'm discounting a low 12 14b car at all....it's just that a few are in that realm which says to me with a bit more time etc., 11's are possible. Keep us posted and good luck

Thanks. Incase you happen to remember me this isn't the same 16g heavy modded car you saw me at the track with last year. You know the one I was struggling to break into the 12's with . I chatted with you and bullet for over an hour trying to figure out why that car was so slow. Well its not my problem anymore . My goal with this car is to push it as far as possible on the 14b and keep it simple without dumping tons of money into it like my past dsm's. This new dsm of mine for some reason dont feel much slower than that old pig so I think I've got a great building block to start with. Only downfall is its a 7 bolt motor but meh I'm not scared. I gotta get this boost drop issue figured out though so I can get a decent tune. It builds 16-17psi right away then gradually falls off to about 13psi by redline. Not sure if the 7cm turbine housing and tubular 02 housing have anything to do with this. I'm still on the stock dpipe and cat with thermal catback. Im running a hallman pro bc but the guy I bough it from didn't know if it has the soft or hard spring in it. I got a few things I'll be checking when I can find some time. I read this thread every day so I'll be sure to post any udates or numbers if I ever make it to the dyno.

 

[YZFR1]

Need some more fellow dsmers advice!! Found this restrictor on ebay. Do you guys think it will be enough to drop the pressure from OFH with? Or should i also port the OFH valve?

Adapter Fitting M12x1.25 mm -4AN / 1.5mm restrictor DSM: eBay Motors (item 380266969135 end time Oct-08-10 01:12:39 PDT)

 

[Phil1320]

Thanks. Incase you happen to remember me this isn't the same 16g heavy modded car you saw me at the track with last year. You know the one I was struggling to break into the 12's with . I chatted with you and bullet for over an hour trying to figure out why that car was so slow. Well its not my problem anymore . My goal with this car is to push it as far as possible on the 14b and keep it simple without dumping tons of money into it like my past dsm's. This new dsm of mine for some reason dont feel much slower than that old pig so I think I've got a great building block to start with. Only downfall is its a 7 bolt motor but meh I'm not scared. I gotta get this boost drop issue figured out though so I can get a decent tune. It builds 16-17psi right away then gradually falls off to about 13psi by redline. Not sure if the 7cm turbine housing and tubular 02 housing have anything to do with this. I'm still on the stock dpipe and cat with thermal catback. Im running a hallman pro bc but the guy I bough it from didn't know if it has the soft or hard spring in it. I got a few things I'll be checking when I can find some time. I read this thread every day so I'll be sure to post any udates or numbers if I ever make it to the dyno.

Simple has always been my motto. Definitely get the quirks ironed out as 13psi won't get the job done. I'd check the wastegate actuator, make sure the CBV is crushed to hold more, and boost leaks at the intake/throttle body. Will be nice to see you run quick. Good luck with it! You can go quite far on the stock downpipe. I think I was at 12.7 or so when I went to a 2.5".

 

[supravw]

I've finally gotten some progress with my 14b setup. I was down for 3 weeks originally waiting for a custom 2 piece driveshaft which promptly reached critical velocity at the amazing speed of 70 mph. Filed a BBB complaint after the builder blamed the failure on me.

That has led to it sitting for another month, with me trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I remade the driveshaft mounts for the stock shaft over this last weekend and have put 60 miles or so on it. It's so nice to drive something with power again, I've been driving a 91 pathfinder.

Got to do some tuning tonight, I think it's pretty decent. I'm running 20psi down to 16psi at redline, 18-20* peak timing and 10.5 afr. I can't log a 70-90 (short tires) but my 60-80 is sitting at 1.7-1.8, it pulls awesome. As long as the weather is decent I "should" be heading to the track and get some numbers. A 12 would be great but I'm not holding my breath, I'll be spinning my ass off most likely.

 

[DJ23GSX]

Simple has always been my motto. Definitely get the quirks ironed out as 13psi won't get the job done. I'd check the wastegate actuator, make sure the CBV is crushed to hold more, and boost leaks at the intake/throttle body. Will be nice to see you run quick. Good luck with it! You can go quite far on the stock downpipe. I think I was at 12.7 or so when I went to a 2.5".

Im suspecting the actuator myself as this boost issues seems to come and go and the actuator thats on there looks like it was pulled up from the titanic for some reason . I've boost leak tested to 20psi and my only leaks were at he tb shaft seals and possibly the turbo seals as I could hear the oil bubbling. The bov held 20psi no problem. I have a check valve between the intake and pcv valve so Im assuming its the turbo seals but at the same time there is very very minimal shaft play on the turbo. Even with those small leaks the system still held pressure for a good bit before bleeding down to 0. I did install the 560's though after the boost leak test so that will def be on the to do list again. I might rig up a way to take the turbo out of the loop too for the next test. My egr valve was leaking badly when I first got the car but that has been blocked off since then. I've also got this new noise around the timing gears/valve cover when the cars cold. No clue what that could be. Bad lifter tick maybe? This just started after the car sat for a few months waiting for a tranny. All I did to the motor was change the oil and new ps and alt belts. I seems to quiet down a good bit once the car is warmed up. Compression was in the mid 150's across the board too. Im curious what side of the oil pan the oil pump pulls oil from? My driveway is on a hill so my car is tilted towards the passanger side. I swear this noise makes it sound like there is no oil in the car but she's full of 10w30 mobil one fully synthetic. Any clues what to look for would be much appreciated. I'm really hoping to get on the dyno in the next few weeks.

 

[YZFR1]

Not that anyone cares about my 14b quest.. but i started assembling the car back together. Sold the OFH feedline for the same price i bought it for. Decided to use the stock line for now and just limit the boost to 20psi or so while i work out the rest of the tune.

Started to install the banjo feeting into the head and realized that my theads are stripped :roll: So i guess i'm going to have to deal with that now and go back to the OFH feedline idea.. haha i love it when sh*t goes not as planned!

 

[SBstar]

Not that anyone cares about my 14b quest.. but i started assembling the car back together. Sold the OFH feedline for the same price i bought it for. Decided to use the stock line for now and just limit the boost to 20psi or so while i work out the rest of the tune.

Started to install the banjo feeting into the head and realized that my theads are stripped :roll: So i guess i'm going to have to deal with that now and go back to the OFH feedline idea.. haha i love it when sh*t goes not as planned!

Helicoil it! That's how mine is and it works great, no leaks. We like hearing about everyone's projects!

 

[Phil1320]

Im suspecting the actuator myself as this boost issues seems to come and go and the actuator thats on there looks like it was pulled up from the titanic for some reason . I've boost leak tested to 20psi and my only leaks were at he tb shaft seals and possibly the turbo seals as I could hear the oil bubbling. The bov held 20psi no problem. I have a check valve between the intake and pcv valve so Im assuming its the turbo seals but at the same time there is very very minimal shaft play on the turbo. Even with those small leaks the system still held pressure for a good bit before bleeding down to 0. I did install the 560's though after the boost leak test so that will def be on the to do list again. I might rig up a way to take the turbo out of the loop too for the next test. My egr valve was leaking badly when I first got the car but that has been blocked off since then. I've also got this new noise around the timing gears/valve cover when the cars cold. No clue what that could be. Bad lifter tick maybe? This just started after the car sat for a few months waiting for a tranny. All I did to the motor was change the oil and new ps and alt belts. I seems to quiet down a good bit once the car is warmed up. Compression was in the mid 150's across the board too. Im curious what side of the oil pan the oil pump pulls oil from? My driveway is on a hill so my car is tilted towards the passanger side. I swear this noise makes it sound like there is no oil in the car but she's full of 10w30 mobil one fully synthetic. Any clues what to look for would be much appreciated. I'm really hoping to get on the dyno in the next few weeks.

Probably a good bet. Where was your EGR leaking? I think I have the same problem on my VR4. I'm sure it's most likely the lifters. I would guess it would go away after consistent usage if you say the car sat for a bit. Compression is good at 150's. Oil draws from the "driver" side of the pan. It's probably nothing major really. What does the factory oil pressure guage do when you start the car?

Not that anyone cares about my 14b quest.. but i started assembling the car back together. Sold the OFH feedline for the same price i bought it for. Decided to use the stock line for now and just limit the boost to 20psi or so while i work out the rest of the tune.

Started to install the banjo feeting into the head and realized that my theads are stripped :roll: So i guess i'm going to have to deal with that now and go back to the OFH feedline idea.. haha i love it when sh*t goes not as planned!

Why would you say that? No way. I care what's going on for sure. I want to see more fast 14b powered (stock turbo) DSM's. I've been running the stock line on my car and have never changed it. I run boost at 21 and I know that I'm probably playing with fire. It was recommended up here by pneumo to run a braided line off the original feed at the head. I plan to do that when I swap to the EVO 3 16g, unless I somehow for whatever reason start to try to eek more boost out of the 14b. Anyway, he has alot of experience with different components so I would trust his statement and look to go that route. Good luck and don't sweat the small stuff. Also, yes, helicoil the head....

 

[YZFR1]

Thanks for your responses guys! The project is supposed to be fun but can get frustrating at the same time..

I decided not go with helicoil because it's expensive. On the bright side of things though, for the same price i sold my old OFH feedline, i managed to buy another one plus a restrictor. The line was $5 cheaper plus the guys combined shipping on the restrictor. And all that is about $20 less than helicoil would've been. I guess, as long as i drop the pressure going to the turbo i should be ok. Might also have to port the housing's valve.

My only concern at this point would be not to drop the pressure too much, so i'm not sure if i should port or not when running a restrictor? If anyone has any knowledge on the subject would be highly appreciated.

 

[DJ23GSX]

Probably a good bet. Where was your EGR leaking? I think I have the same problem on my VR4. I'm sure it's most likely the lifters. I would guess it would go away after consistent usage if you say the car sat for a bit. Compression is good at 150's. Oil draws from the "driver" side of the pan. It's probably nothing major really. What does the factory oil pressure guage do when you start the car?

My egr valve was leaking right into the 4th cyl exhaust port. My first blt i did I had the exhaust mani off and I could clearly hear the air coming out of the egr port that dumps into the exhaust manifold. I did another leak test yesterday and eliminated the turbo. By doing that I was able to hear the small leak at the bov and no more bubbling oil. Even with the tb shaft leak and bov leak it still takes about 20-25 seconds to bleed from 20psi to 0 so they're not horrible. I took the bov off to slightly crush it and hopefully fix that leak. I also took of my wg actuator and tested that. It looks like it starts to open around 5-7psi. Thats a bit low right? At 10psi it slams wide open. As for the factory oil pressure gauge it does go up a lil when I first start the car but when I'm driving I noticed that as the rpm's go up the highest the gauge will go is maybe straight up. I'll have to pay a bit more attention to that to give you an honest answer. I actually posted a video of the engine noise in the newbie section if your interested.

 

[FonZ454]

Well since it's 14b powered...

I took my daily 92 Galant VR-4 to the track last night for fun. Car feels soo slow, so I was going to be happy if I cracked 13s.

unported 6cm everything (with the fire ring!), full 3" turboback, dsmlink, 660s and 150lph pump. ACT 2600 and ACT flywheel, and 17psi dropping instantly to 14. Stock MAF, stock intercooler () stock everything else.

Mustered up a 13.78 @ 95.99 mph. 1.81 60 foot.

It was sooo much fun racing such a slow car ! I love it

I'm tempted to put a real intercooler on it and a turbo that has less than a half inch of shaftplay and upping the boost to maybe crack 12s. Car has NO MPH , but I had a blast. went 14.1 with a lady passenger, 13.7 and 13.8

 

[Phil1320]

My egr valve was leaking right into the 4th cyl exhaust port. My first blt i did I had the exhaust mani off and I could clearly hear the air coming out of the egr port that dumps into the exhaust manifold. I did another leak test yesterday and eliminated the turbo. By doing that I was able to hear the small leak at the bov and no more bubbling oil. Even with the tb shaft leak and bov leak it still takes about 20-25 seconds to bleed from 20psi to 0 so they're not horrible. I took the bov off to slightly crush it and hopefully fix that leak. I also took of my wg actuator and tested that. It looks like it starts to open around 5-7psi. Thats a bit low right? At 10psi it slams wide open. As for the factory oil pressure gauge it does go up a lil when I first start the car but when I'm driving I noticed that as the rpm's go up the highest the gauge will go is maybe straight up. I'll have to pay a bit more attention to that to give you an honest answer. I actually posted a video of the engine noise in the newbie section if your interested.

Ah...gotcha. Checked mine(egr), it was ok. Found ISC motor to ohm test fine but not operate at all, it is dormant in the open position, hence my high idle. Well, it will be great to see how well it runs once all the small stuff is fixed. Believe it or not, I have the original shaft seals in my throttle body. I'm sure I'm losing a bit there, but for now, that's ok. I'll check out the vid and see if I can tell what you've got.

Well since it's 14b powered...

I took my daily 92 Galant VR-4 to the track last night for fun. Car feels soo slow, so I was going to be happy if I cracked 13s.

unported 6cm everything (with the fire ring!), full 3" turboback, dsmlink, 660s and 150lph pump. ACT 2600 and ACT flywheel, and 17psi dropping instantly to 14. Stock MAF, stock intercooler () stock everything else.

Mustered up a 13.78 @ 95.99 mph. 1.81 60 foot.

It was sooo much fun racing such a slow car ! I love it

I'm tempted to put a real intercooler on it and a turbo that has less than a half inch of shaftplay and upping the boost to maybe crack 12s. Car has NO MPH , but I had a blast. went 14.1 with a lady passenger, 13.7 and 13.8

nice! That's pretty cool! It's all about ET man and 13.7 is sweet. Still quicker than most cars you can buy off the floor today. Wouldn't the natural and easy thing to do be slap your EVO 3 16 on the VR4 once you've banged out a 10 on it in the Talon

 

[FonZ454]

nice! That's pretty cool! It's all about ET man and 13.7 is sweet. Still quicker than most cars you can buy off the floor today. Wouldn't the natural and easy thing to do be slap your EVO 3 16 on the VR4 once you've banged out a 10 on it in the Talon

I bought the Evo3 brand new from FP FOR the vr-4, but the talon blew it's turbo like that week so it went on the talon and hasn't come off since. But yes, the vr-4 will be getting the 16g one day. Still, with a stock turbo on an old car it got down pretty well, I know it could be low 13's with some better breathing on this turbo. The vr-4 is basically my fun/budget daily driver. Any upgrades the Talon gets, the vr-4 get the old parts haha. I'm going to look for a better MAF (2g or EVO) and maybe an evo FMIC or a kit. That alone should help it a bit. Not going to bother porting anything on this exhaust setup most likely, unless I come across other stuff dirt cheap. The talons whole manifold/turbo/o2 setup will go right on it.

Get your vr-4 to the track!

 

[pneumo]

Any upgrades the Talon gets, the vr-4 get the old parts haha.

Ha, that's funny- I do the same thing. I have a DD Laser and it gets some of the hand-me-downs from my Talon. It's a cheap way to keep my second DSM running in one piece. I've lost track of how many parts it has from other DSM's.

 

[Gooberlog]

Ha, that's funny- I do the same thing. I have a DD Laser and it gets some of the hand-me-downs from my Talon. It's a cheap way to keep my second DSM running in one piece. I've lost track of how many parts it has from other DSM's.

Good stuff, i plan on doing this with my wife's GST spyder that I'm getting for her. I already have a 1g bov from a friends car lined up for it. Possibly a intake as well. I think being resourceful is in our blood.

 

[Phil1320]

Good stuff, i plan on doing this with my wife's GST spyder that I'm getting for her. I already have a 1g bov from a friends car lined up for it. Possibly a intake as well. I think being resourceful is in our blood.

No doubt. Ported turbine, mani, and o2 dump on the VR4 are from the Talon. DSM's are the perfect hand-me-down cars as most of us have a few around at all times. Gotta love it!