The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[SBstar]

And there you go.

So back to 14b racing?

 

[1qkfwd]

Cant wait to see how maxed out this evo3 7cm housing is, if it is at all. Then I guess Ill be trying out the Fp 8cm housing.

 

[91stocker]

TDO5-14G Upgrade turbo for the Starions and Conquests. 465cfm@15PSi of boost. Starion and Conquests came stock with 8cm exhaust housings. To use on a DSM you will want to take a 6cm or 7cm exhaust housing from a DSM and install it due to the fact the 8cm exhaust housing uses a different downpipe bolt pattern and shape is different to make installation much harder and require custom fabrication.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/311866-what-cars-came-stock-14g-yes-14g.html

More specifically post #6

"The 14g compressor flows the same as the 14b compressor. But the 14g is SLIGHTLY more efficient. . "
Compressor maps supplied.


OEM Starion turbos have TDO5 turbine wheels, and replacement 14G/Bs and 16Gs all have 5h turbine wheel, so you'd have to machine the turbine housing.

The 2.0 4G63 is the only gasoline application the TD05H-14B ever came on, that I can find atleast.

Other then coming on starion/conquests it also

"The TD05H-14g was on FUSO box truck 4 cylinder diesel motors. "

 

[1qkfwd]

OK and how is that an upgrade for us 14B guys if its not a direct bolt on???


I want that wastegate
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...ars-came-stock-14g-yes-14g.html#post151642486

That coupled with link and a GM 3port might make for some good boost control.

 

[91stocker]

OK and how is that an upgrade for us 14B guys if its not a direct bolt on???

Post 4073...

 

[1qkfwd]

Post 4073...

But the 8cm housing they offer for our cars with a TD05H turbo is different than the one they have had casted for the 14G. Even if it bolted up,The 8cm 14G housing doesnt flow like our housings should. The wastegate flows straight towards the turbine outlet.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

TDO5-14G Upgrade turbo for the Starions and Conquests. 465cfm@15PSi of boost. Starion and Conquests came stock with 8cm exhaust housings. To use on a DSM you will want to take a 6cm or 7cm exhaust housing from a DSM and install it due to the fact the 8cm exhaust housing uses a different downpipe bolt pattern and shape is different to make installation much harder and require custom fabrication.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/311866-what-cars-came-stock-14g-yes-14g.html

More specifically post #6

"The 14g compressor flows the same as the 14b compressor. But the 14g is SLIGHTLY more efficient. . "
Compressor maps supplied.


OEM Starion turbos have TDO5 turbine wheels, and replacement 14G/Bs and 16Gs all have 5h turbine wheel, so you'd have to machine the turbine housing.



Other then coming on starion/conquests it also

"The TD05H-14g was on FUSO box truck 4 cylinder diesel motors. "

The 14B and the 14G are not the same thing.

Try to mount a Starion turbine housing to your DSM manifold, then get back to us.

Nevermind that the Starion 8cm housing is SMALLER in cross section at the inlet flange and turbine discharge than the 6cm TD05H housing.. call FP, they can tell you too.

A factory upgrade.. is something the factory offers specifically for that model.
This is nowhere near the same as "well because I can take this and make it work here." There is typically no shade-tree mechanic required to machine a part in a "factory upgrade"

Words have definitions, that's how language works.

 

[Steve93Talon]

It was a post of jusmx i believe. But think about it, if it wasnt an option, then where did the 8cm dsm housings come from? They never came stock on the 14b's or 16g's, dsm or evo 1-3.

The 8cm housing with the DSM style inlet and outlet originated in the Greddy 18g kit for the 2G.

 

[SBstar]

Here's a thought. The 14b record was set with a 6cm housing. One should not need an 8cm housing, a 7cm should reduce turbine back pressure over the 6cm. I'll stick with my 7cm housing unless someone proves the 8cm is worth some big advantage. As for now we still know the 6cm is plenty.

 

[91stocker]

But the 8cm housing they offer for our cars with a TD05H turbo is different than the one they have had casted for the 14G. Even if it bolted up,The 8cm 14G housing doesnt flow like our housings should. The wastegate flows straight towards the turbine outlet.

It was merely an example that they were already making 8cm housing upgrades for mitsu/dsm vehicles at the time. And that there was a dsm 8cm being produced at the time as well. That as far as i know, or that i could find, was only produced as an upgrade option for the 14b as far as dsm application goes.

The 14B and the 14G are not the same thing.

Try to mount a Starion turbine housing to your DSM manifold, then get back to us.

Nevermind that the Starion 8cm housing is SMALLER in cross section at the inlet flange and turbine discharge than the 6cm TD05H housing.. call FP, they can tell you too.

A factory upgrade.. is something the factory offers specifically for that model.
This is nowhere near the same as "well because I can take this and make it work here." There is typically no shade-tree mechanic required to machine a part in a "factory upgrade"

Words have definitions, that's how language works.

You completely missed the point of post 4073. Maybe you should re read it and get back to us...

The 8cm housing with the DSM style inlet and outlet originated in the Greddy 18g kit for the 2G.

I find it hard to believe that mistu produced a housing only for greddy to use in their kits.

Here's a thought. The 14b record was set with a 6cm housing. One should not need an 8cm housing, a 7cm should reduce turbine back pressure over the 6cm. I'll stick with my 7cm housing unless someone proves the 8cm is worth some big advantage. As for now we still know the 6cm is plenty.

Yea and people have made 500whp on stock cams or ran 10's on a 14b. Doesnt mean its the best way to go about it.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

You completely missed the point of post 4073. Maybe you should re read it and get back to us...

Your "point" was purely speculation.

Here's a thought. The 14b record was set with a 6cm housing. One should not need an 8cm housing, a 7cm should reduce turbine back pressure over the 6cm. I'll stick with my 7cm housing unless someone proves the 8cm is worth some big advantage. As for now we still know the 6cm is plenty.

Sticking to what works is the fastest way to stop going fast.. in a turbo drag application there is no disadvantage to decreasing drive-pressure and your drive:boost ratio provided you can still get up to your launch PR.

Almost unilaterally you will pick up whp/psi boost as a result, EGTs drop you should be able to run MBT timing and lean out some if you are fuel-limited.

It doesn't have to be a big advantage.. when you are chasing the record its the details that count. Even the most marginal gains add up. 8cm or 10cm T3 offer promise in that regard. As was hashed out a few pages back.. It's a compressor wheel record.

 

[1qkfwd]

Here's a thought. The 14b record was set with a 6cm housing. One should not need an 8cm housing, a 7cm should reduce turbine back pressure over the 6cm. I'll stick with my 7cm housing unless someone proves the 8cm is worth some big advantage. As for now we still know the 6cm is plenty.

Im sure we all have a set of personal guidelines that we follow. I dont think the difference between the housings is enough to pitch a fit. But like me im looking to maximize Joe's setup. That also means if the 7cm works then thats what im going with.

I also have a few set of things I wont do until after I reset the record. One of those is to upgrade to the FP housing. I'd still be on the 6cm housing if I even had a good one to start out with. All mine were pretty trashed and I had 3 good 16G housings to work with.

Somethings you wont see me doing in order to reset the record:
Running a corn based fuel so no E85, E98, or methanol
Cutting the car apart and doing any tube work to the front or rear suspension
Removing my front window for lexan
Doing any kind of port work to the compressor housing
Installing any part of a nos kit in the car
Making any sort of traction aid ( no limiting straps, traction bars, wheelie bars)

Im getting to the point where im tapped on weight and the power to be made. A few small changes to the car and its going to a low elevation track. Then I can worry about that list of stuff to do.

 

[SBstar]

Sticking to what works is the fastest way to stop going fast.. .

Sticking with proven methods that have already gone fast means I won't go fast...got it

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Joe did not maximize his setups potential. He made two passes the day he set the record. Over 3 tenths quicker then any other passes he had made. Only two, the switched setups. His car could have been lighter, his 60's on those runs were not on par with what he had done before, and two passes isn't enough to know you're at the limit of your setup.

While I agree that in theory there could be benefits to a larger housing as of yet no one has shown it in a real world application. At this point we haven't seen real proof that the 7cm housing has been a gain over the 6, it's speculation. If someone has the funds and resources to test go right ahead. Show me some results and I'll switch. Until then I'll keep going quicker on what I have, knowing it has yet to be maxed out.

This is not to say that thinking of new things, or outside the box is wrong. But, the majority of this is coming from those who haven't come close to pushing the 14b. Suggestions are great, but without real world results it's not worth my time and money.

Im sure we all have a set of personal guidelines that we follow. I dont think the difference between the housings is enough to pitch a fit. But like me im looking to maximize Joe's setup. That also means if the 7cm works then thats what im going with.

I also have a few set of things I wont do until after I reset the record. One of those is to upgrade to the FP housing. I'd still be on the 6cm housing if I even had a good one to start out with. All mine were pretty trashed and I had 3 good 16G housings to work with.

Somethings you wont see me doing in order to reset the record:
Running a corn based fuel so no E85, E98, or methanol
Cutting the car apart and doing any tube work to the front or rear suspension
Removing my front window for lexan
Doing any kind of port work to the compressor housing
Installing any part of a nos kit in the car
Making any sort of traction aid ( no limiting straps, traction bars, wheelie bars)

Im getting to the point where im tapped on weight and the power to be made. A few small changes to the car and its going to a low elevation track. Then I can worry about that list of stuff to do.

Not that there is anything wrong with doing any of those things. But, it's been shown they aren't needed to run this quick on a 14b. I say spend the time making passes, and the money optimizing what you have, instead of trying a myriad of things trying to find some magic setup.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

It's really not just a hypothesis, except in the exact context of this turbo. But only because no one has thrown the time and resources at drive:boost, cam matching, etc. that other drag programs at higher levels have.

The effect is demonstrable in that the TD05H wheel is not the limit in the 14B. This can be seen with 400+ awhp 16Gs on the same wheel, but in the 7cm, 8cm and a few 10cm T3 housings.

Run a 16G with a 6cm housing and it will fast become apparent where the restriction in the setup is located. In much the same way, look at the difference it made when people started to cut open the wastegate recirc tube on the factory O2 housings. I think I saw where Phil actually still possess one of these.

Ask yourself, why does this make a difference? Its because backpressure downstream of the turbine is going to be multiplied across the wheel by the expansion ratio and additive to the upstream drive pressure. If you can drop downstream pressure, you can wastegate more upstream pressure and maintain the same shaft speed. With the external dump the wastegate becomes yet more efficient at the same duty cycle. Similarly with a bigger housing you can move more mass, more efficiently at the same drive pressure if you are not limited by the wheel. This is what allows for more power at the same boost and a bigger margin for error in the tune.

Less boost to make the same flow, means less work is being done on the fluid with less heat imparted upon it. Consequently the IC doesn't have as big a task as well.

The 14B is a ~36lb/min capable compressor wheel. It is just not super efficient in doing so, but max effort runs on a certain wheel size never are.. this is where fuel and charge cooling become critical. Add in a forward facing intake scoop and even the slightest positive inlet pressure changes its potential significantly.

In my anecdotal experience.. I routinely saw 33-35lbs/min the last time I had one on the old car. Two known good 1G MAS units and an Evo8 MAS confirmed those flow figures. The acceleration/weight figures I cranked out then also backed this up.

Everything that applies to these big turbos, goes for the small guys too. Just dismissing it because some of us currently are not on a 14B, and that criteria alone is perplexing. How expensive is a 7cm or 10cm housing housing anyways? Even in the extreme case of a 10cm housing - Ebay T3 manifolds are available for ~120 bucks or less, and I have a couple of 2-bolt 38mm gates (turbonetics?) on hand one of which I would happily sell for cheap to go towards the cause. Welding a shorty dump pipe and a 4-bolt megaphone style downpipe wouldn't be much more than the cost of the two flanges.

It's a spot that has potential for relatively little invested if you are still looking for power, that is all I am getting at..

 

[1qkfwd]

Not that there is anything wrong with doing any of those things. But, it's been shown they aren't needed to run this quick on a 14b. I say spend the time making passes, and the money optimizing what you have, instead of trying a myriad of things trying to find some magic setup.

Thats why I wont do them quite yet. I always say "The car will tell you what it needs" Everytime your at the track your car will tell you what to fix or upgrade. I stick with that.

For what its worth on the exhaust topic, With 1000ft higher DA I was able to gain a little more mph with change out the whole exhaust side of the turbo. I went from the standard big 16G housing, pie cut internal gated o2 housing, choked 2.5" to 3" down pipe over to the EVO3 housing, external dump, and a full 2.5" up pipe. The car seemed like it was a lb or two lower on boost to with the higher mph that day.

For that day and 6000ft DA I was logging 31-32lbs/min across the whole rpm range. Most ever at my high elevation track.

 

[SBstar]

I see what you're saying there and we've seen real world results from those intakes. The issue I see is that the 7cm housing has proved to flow enough air for the 16g to produce over 100 more whp. I just can't see it being a huge restriction on the 14b. Maybe it'll be worth it, my only point is we know what has already worked, it just needs to be maximized.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Im sure we all have a set of personal guidelines that we follow. I dont think the difference between the housings is enough to pitch a fit. But like me im looking to maximize Joe's setup. That also means if the 7cm works then thats what im going with.

I also have a few set of things I wont do until after I reset the record. One of those is to upgrade to the FP housing. I'd still be on the 6cm housing if I even had a good one to start out with. All mine were pretty trashed and I had 3 good 16G housings to work with.

Somethings you wont see me doing in order to reset the record:
Running a corn based fuel so no E85, E98, or methanol
Cutting the car apart and doing any tube work to the front or rear suspension
Removing my front window for lexan
Doing any kind of port work to the compressor housing
Installing any part of a nos kit in the car
Making any sort of traction aid ( no limiting straps, traction bars, wheelie bars)

Im getting to the point where im tapped on weight and the power to be made. A few small changes to the car and its going to a low elevation track. Then I can worry about that list of stuff to do.

I need of a good 6cm housing?=)

 

[1qkfwd]

I need of a good 6cm housing?=)

No sir .

I think I'll stick with the 7cm now since the car runs so great. I'd hate to downgrade. Besides I just got done drilling and tapping the housing for my backpressure sensor.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

No sir .

I think I'll stick with the 7cm now since the car runs so great. I'd hate to downgrade. Besides I just got done drilling and tapping the housing for my backpressure sensor.

Lol I liked the 7cm on my 14b too. Logged 30+lbs/min a few times with it.

 

[gofer]

Some good discussion going on. I had Jus modify a 8cm BEP hotside to bolt onto my HTA68, have yet to really start tuning it though to see if it made a difference anywhere.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Even with the T3 10cm housing on my EVO3 16g, drive pressure would easily go through the roof (3:1 was easy to achieve). That compressor is much closer than a 14b to where I believe the limit of the 5H turbine lies though. I have to think that on a 14b the bigger housings will just result in less wastegating, but the same drive pressure. An unfortunate consequence of trying to max out a compressor is the high drive pressures needed to provide the shaft power to work the compressor so hard. I'm stuck with the T3 housing due to my manifold, unless I use adapters and make another downpipe (with all the turbos I run on the car and the truck, I have downpipes stacked like cord wood). If anyone can test different housings and measure back pressure please share!

 

[pneumo]

It's really not just a hypothesis, except in the exact context of this turbo. But only because no one has thrown the time and resources at drive:boost, cam matching, etc. that other drag programs at higher levels have.

I've talked about my cam gear settings before. I've been very open with most of my tech info but I think this detail was lost in the clutter, so let me reiterate a few key points. When I set the 14b record many years ago I was using a ported 6cm housing. I also used a stock compressor cover that was ported in radical ways. I had FP2 cams with adjustable cam gears and I put some thought into balancing the cam gear settings against the drivepressure/backpressure puzzle. There's no denying the 14b needs high drive pressure to spin the compressor up to the speeds where it can push more air, and there's no denying that high drive pressure can hurt power. If anyone thinks they know the right answer I urge them to test it out and see what happens. There's some good tuners in this thread who are capable of juggling the variables and I think they'll be able to figure it out.

I think I did something right since I made 325 AWHP on a low reading Mustang dyno and backed it up with decent trap speeds on a mildly lightened street car. I think I had the advantage in being able to drive the car on the street whenever I wanted since I could test out new ideas, explore datalogs, and test my theories with regular track visits 2 or 3 times every month. I was lucky to have Wednesdays off at that time so I could hit the track regularly. There's nothing like real world testing.

 

[1qkfwd]

I plan to be messing with different drive pressures. I want to find the right ratio that yeilds me the best mph. Im almost done installing the sensor for logging and will have results after the 28th with the 16g and 7cm housing.

After last outting of my cas being bad and 6 degrees advanced, I also plan to play with my cam timing. I got a feel for the cars power band in a couple spots with it being like that.

 

[gofer]

That's interesting. I guess I've never put any thought into cam timing and turbo drive pressure being related, I wish you guys weren't trying to set records since I'd like to know what you found worked best and why, for my own td05 setup. Real world vs. theory.

Either way, I'm glad you guys are discussing this as it gives me something to research so I can continue to squeeze every last bit out of my setup too while I wait for $4k to grow on a tree for my HTA3786/Buschur manifold purchase.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Cam gear changes dropped my 16g times from 10.6 or 10.7 to 10.3, but I was running fixed back pressure at the time so no way to know how that was affected.