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The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

Posted by Phil1320, Nov 25, 2009

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  1. Bud92gsx

    Bud92gsx Proven Member

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    As in meth or no2?
     

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    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    13.300 @ 102.400 · 1G DSM
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  2. LandSpeed-DSM

    LandSpeed-DSM Proven Member

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    Think 250 shot ;)
     

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    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
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  3. Bud92gsx

    Bud92gsx Proven Member

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    ^rofl
     

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    13.300 @ 102.400 · 1G DSM
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  4. pneumo

    pneumo Proven Member

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    Bay Area, California
    The only reason I had a built block on the Talon is because the previous motor went bad, very bad. Honestly, if your current motor is still good I'd keep it and run it. My other DSM has over 300k miles on the original block, head, pistons, HG etc. and I beat on it almost daily, 21psi on crappy 91 octane. I keep thinking that I'll rebuild it soon, but it keeps on running with good compression so why waste money and time to fix something that isn't broken.
     

    2K  0

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.514 @ 118.130 · 1G DSM
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  5. Phil1320

    Phil1320 Proven Member

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    The only one that comes to mind is SBstar.

    He ran 11.30 on the butt dyno. LOL


    Minimal? It's a full engine build!?WTF

    IMHO Dave is #2 behind Joe with the least minimal mods.

    I mean c'mon guys let's get real here. 118.1 mph on a relatively heavy race weight.

    I'm not into trap speed talk so much, but 11.51@118 @ his weight can't be done on 'minimal' mods....
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
    Phil1320

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    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.490 @ 113.850 · 1G DSM
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  6. 945liter

    945liter Proven Member

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    im sure the 9.0CR Pistons + a 1.6L head helps a bit over factory 7.8.1, This thread makes me want a stock block 14b bolt on e85 car :/ not extreme like alot of the ones here LOL.
     
  7. gofer

    gofer Moderator

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    It's a minimal list of bolt-ons with numbers that could be easily achieved on a stock bottom end without reliability concerns.

    I've been reliably holding 440whp/390tq on a stock 7-bolt bottom end for 3 years, I was specifically pointing out the bolt-ons being minimal. The built bottom end has nothing to do with those numbers since a stock 6-bolt wouldn't even blink running 25psi with a 14b. Pneumo didn't even have an EMS, he was using a chip and an SAFC... LOL

    Bud, if you want those numbers on a 14b you just need to build a fuel system than can accommodate the additional fueling requirements of E85.

    :dsm:
     

    Street Build 17K  13  61

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    11.634 @ 126.050 · 2G DSM

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    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
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  8. 1qkfwd

    1qkfwd DSM Wiseman

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    At this level builts only void if compression and rotating weight is the same as stock. But you will only get minimal gains with bump of compression or with lighter parts.

    Kinda excited to get to a a dyno in CA just to see what power I am making. Im logging great airflow numbers even with a high DA, so the dyno sheet cant be to much of a disapointment.
     

    3K  0

    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    10.677 @ 128.100 · 1G DSM
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  9. Steve93Talon

    Steve93Talon Proven Member

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    Stock 1G head/cams/intake, typical FMIC, pump/injectors, V3 SD, full 3", 2600 setup. 24 psi on E85. I do have a ross/eagle bottom end which is 8.3:1 - I wouldn't consider it a "power adder".

    [​IMG]
     

    Drag Race Build 1K  24

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    369.5 whp · 403.2 lb/ft · 1G DSM

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    1993 Eagle Talon TSi
    11.784 @ 115.120 · 1G DSM
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  10. Phil1320

    Phil1320 Proven Member

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    Opinions will differ here. The point is, the motor was built. Whether or not a box stock bottom end could do the same irrelevant.

    It's amazing to me that there are several modifications that many pass off as:

    'not helping at all'

    OR

    'don't do anything when using a 14b'

    Then why does everyone do them?

    Eh. I call BS.
     
    Phil1320

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    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.490 @ 113.850 · 1G DSM
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  11. Steve93Talon

    Steve93Talon Proven Member

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    I can't speak for anyone else, but I used a built engine because I started with a shell that had no engine. A decent used stock bottom end, head, cams, head gasket, studs, bal. elim, water pump, timing belt, gaskets, etc. would have been over $1k. I was parting out a 2G that had a built engine in it, and was able to make money on the car and still keep the engine so it was a no brainer. Unless you're running aluminum rods or 9:1+ compression, you aren't going to see power gains from a built bottom end.

    As for other mods that don't do anything on a 14b, I'm beginning to question whether my FMIC may be too much for it. It was from my friend's previous 708whp setup. I see rock solid charge temps of a few degrees over ambient, but I may be getting a good bit of pressure drop as a trade-off. As I mentioned above, it's tempting to try a hotpipe setup to see if it gains anything.

    You need to keep in mind that this is a "stock turbo" number we're going for, not stock engine or stock components. There's no need to try any pass something off as not helping in a deceptive manner. Your own experience stems from a very stock setup on a light car, a formula that worked very well, but was never compared against other parts to see what worked and what didn't. Others may have more experience when they speculate that a part intended for a big setup may not gain anything, or may even hurt performance, with the 14b.
     

    Drag Race Build 1K  24

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    369.5 whp · 403.2 lb/ft · 1G DSM

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    1993 Eagle Talon TSi
    11.784 @ 115.120 · 1G DSM
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  12. Bud92gsx

    Bud92gsx Proven Member

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    I know man these 680s are not gonna cut it if i want to go e85 and put up 300 hp on a 14b and a 255.
     

    5K  19  14

    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    13.300 @ 102.400 · 1G DSM
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  13. Bud92gsx

    Bud92gsx Proven Member

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    Thats funny I was looking at your dyno numbers earlier.LOL
     

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    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    13.300 @ 102.400 · 1G DSM
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  14. 1SloEvo

    1SloEvo Proven Member

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    I think these numbers are great for the mods. I hate dyno racing, but 99% of us know that a MD dyno (that Dave was using) is a heartbreaker compared to Dynojets. That being said, the cams and intake manifold Dave W. was using could have probably had this "mildly modded" 6 bolt a bit higher on the power numbers!!

     
  15. Phil1320

    Phil1320 Proven Member

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    Even more support for his set up being more MAXimal, then minimal.

    Whether it was his constant tuning ultimately that got him there, who knows.

    Heavy Race Weight, 118 trap
    Highest recorded 14b dyno number, on Mustang no less
     
    Phil1320

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    11.490 @ 113.850 · 1G DSM
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  16. Nate Crisman

    Nate Crisman Proven Member

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    I never got a chance to try out the hot pipe vs icewater IC on my 14b car when running ethanol/methanol. Mine did run fairly well with the alcohol/icewater combo though, it certainly wasn't a "never do it - it wont work" situation.:aha:
     

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    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    10.626 @ 128.800 · 1G DSM
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  17. LandSpeed-DSM

    LandSpeed-DSM Proven Member

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    Further still as was hashed out a few pages back is a compressor wheel record.

    And to the point you were making, every principle that applies to the big snails applies here. It's just magnified on the bigger units.

    Pertaining to the hot pipe setup, there is a lot of merit there.. Though since you already run E85 for primary fuel, Perhaps water injection would be the way to go?

    With that in mind yours is a setup, that on paper would suggest to me some tangible benefit from a larger turbine housing, possibly even a larger wheel.. Like TD06SL2.

    Burning E85, at stoich is going to produce a larger exhaust gas volume than an equivalent gas engine. To the tune of ~13% more CO2 and ~94% more water vapor.

    For gas: 2(C8H10) + 21(O2) = 14 CO2 + 10 H2O
    For ethanol: 7 (C2H6O) + 21 (O2) = 16 CO2 + 21 H2O

    Considering we are discussing a full load situation where the motor will be running richer, there will also be partial combustion products like, carbon monoxide, nitrous oxides and the like. Which will make for a yet greater volume. With the usually decreased EGTs on alcohol, you will also have a more dense and viscous exhaust stream.

    An interesting read on the subject..
    http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc56748/m1/1/

    Considerations for water vapor are discussed starting at the bottom of page 6

    Water vapor was decided to be an independent factor from other fuel composition. Page 42 has a nice chart showing viscosity from temp vs. Relative humidity.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2013

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  18. 1SloEvo

    1SloEvo Proven Member

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    Although Dave's effort wasn't minimal, there are still lots of things that are impressive. Ported 1g manifold and o2 housing, plus his choice for tuning. Those could easily be improved upon to make more power, but it has yet to be done and recorded. The same goes for beating this stock turbo record. Tons of support over what was utilized, yet it hasn't been accomplished...yet.
     
  19. 1qkfwd

    1qkfwd DSM Wiseman

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    Nothing to different in the tuning over link. Both utilize the factory processor. If it was a standalone like aem or haltech might have bigger differences.
     

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    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    10.677 @ 128.100 · 1G DSM
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  20. SBstar

    SBstar Proven Member

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    WTF - I'm not even going to address that.

    Dave's setup was minimal at first, he set his quickest times on a pretty maximal setup. His top mph went from 115 to 118 when he added a smim with a FFtec.com leakproof TB, ETS fmic with shortroute pipes, and FP2 cams. Those are not minimal mods. And from the get-go he was on an other then stock motor. This isn't to take anything away from Dave's accomplishments as they were impressive, just to clarify.
     

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    10.932 @ 123.13 · 1G DSM

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  21. LandSpeed-DSM

    LandSpeed-DSM Proven Member

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  22. 1qkfwd

    1qkfwd DSM Wiseman

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    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
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  23. 1qkfwd

    1qkfwd DSM Wiseman

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    These are some parts that I would like to mess around with. Maybe try out a few different cams and intake.
     

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    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
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  24. LandSpeed-DSM

    LandSpeed-DSM Proven Member

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    And I get that, truly I do. It's a large component of my fascination with these attempts. Project Goodwill was a fairly straightforward plan executed by some one who knew what he was doing, could drive quite well and interpret his results who enough to improve steadily. The changes and modifications were pretty much all complimentary to one another.

    At the same time however, wheres the concern with these "radical" ideas coming from when the record remains untouched?

    I was also mentored with a mindset to not "read into the rules what isn't there" if that explains my philosophy any. Last this came up I didn't appear to be an outlier..

    We allow for cams, intakes, a2w, etc. But a turbine wheel is too much?

    That is part off my hypothesis on drive pressuren management.. Which is beneficial near universally on drag applications
     

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  25. 1qkfwd

    1qkfwd DSM Wiseman

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    You dont gain as much respect for the 14B until you bolt it on and take your steps forward with it to the next level. All the "radical" ideas seem to be coming from people that are not even planning to run the 14B or have yet to bolt one on and get to the track. The "radical ideas are a great way of thinking outside the box and to try and push beyond the level that set the record in the first place.

    There really are no rules into this chase. But in respect for Joe a few things really should be set in stone. The wheel to wheel cartridge should be one of them. If the idea pops up for a T3 10cm housing and SMIC and what ever else can be used, I dont see any issue to see those things tried. Theres no proof anyways that those parts will produce a positive outcome. Thats probably where K.I.S.S. (Keep, It, Simple, Stupid) falls into place. The smallest upgrades so far have yielded the biggest numbers.

    The real question that nobody to date knows the anwser to is, what is the full potential if the 14B at the track or on the dyno? Joe that holds ET record says there was more left, Dave with the Dyno record knows there is more left, and me holding a MPH record knows there is a lot left. Just not a lot of us really into pushing such a small frame with the ease of bolting on more power ie bigger turbos.
     

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