The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Steve93Talon]

The wheel to wheel cartridge should be one of them. If the idea pops up for a T3 10cm housing ...

Hmm...

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[1qkfwd]

We allow for cams, intakes, a2w, etc. But a turbine wheel is too much?

That is part off my hypothesis on drive pressuren management.. Which is beneficial near universally on drag applications

But none of those parts are physically part of the turbo. They are only there to aid in helping the overall make more power or get down the track. The wheel is attached and manufactured to the cartridge. Turbine housing can be questionable but if it can be ported then whats the issue with bolting on a bigger housing.

 

[1qkfwd]

Hmm...

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I think the power potential would be more in the turbine housing and not so much the manifold. The FP has some pretty big ports and might compare to some of the T3 manis.

 

[Phil1320]

This is awesome.

See...I say run car, then run mouth.

Not vice-versa for all that are taking jabs and have zero to show for it.

Great that some seem to have such vast knowledge of turbochargers, engines, and tuning.

Now put your money where your mouths are...

 

[SBstar]

Well, it wasn't aimed towards you.. so that's just as well.

This is a 14b record, yes? 14B is the compressor wheel designation.

Not a "TD05H-14B in an "060" housing with a minimum of mods that Phil and Shane are comfortable with" record. Unless of course you are questioning my understanding of turbo-machinery, which by all means feel free to dissect it could prove an enlightening discussion for all involved.

Once again I'm back to the question, do we really need to clarify that 14b is talking about our stock turbo chra? I understand that you have a different opinion, go ahead and set your record your way. Now I have never once said there should be some minimum or maximum mods that I'm comfortable with. I've referred to the fact that I won't be trying certain things, I'm fine with that, it's proven to work for me all the way to #3. I do however, believe there is some need to keep the purity in the 14b record. If it's not a 14b anymore (changing wheels), or you're using some exotic oxygenated fuel, etc, it's not about the "stock turbo" anymore, it'd be no different then slapping it on a different motor and calling it a record in my mind. I have referred to the fact that I think some people have talked about going to some ridiculous lengths and pouring a ton of money into a stock turbo record. I still stand by my thoughts that it's a total waste of money and time for a record that means very little, but I would never dismiss it as a record if someone were to do that and make a record happen. Also I'm sure your understanding of turbo-machinery is top-notch, no worries there.

 

[1qkfwd]

I run q16 that's prett much an exotic oxygenated fuel

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Once again I'm back to the question, do we really need to clarify that 14b is talking about our stock turbo chra? I understand that you have a different opinion, go ahead and set your record your way. Now I have never once said there should be some minimum or maximum mods that I'm comfortable with. I've referred to the fact that I won't be trying certain things, I'm fine with that, it's proven to work for me all the way to #3. I do however, believe there is some need to keep the purity in the 14b record. If it's not a 14b anymore (changing wheels), or you're using some exotic oxygenated fuel, etc, it's not about the "stock turbo" anymore, it'd be no different then slapping it on a different motor and calling it a record in my mind. I have referred to the fact that I think some people have talked about going to some ridiculous lengths and pouring a ton of money into a stock turbo record. I still stand by my thoughts that it's a total waste of money and time for a record that means very little, but I would never dismiss it as a record if someone were to do that and make a record happen. Also I'm sure your understanding of turbo-machinery is top-notch, no worries there.

Fair points, much along the line of what Justin was getting at too. Spirit and intent type of rulings do keep these things honest.

So factory turbine shaft assembly in the OE CHRA.

Would compressor housing modifications (ala Greg Byers) be taboo, or does that fall under the precedent set with turbine housing port work? E85, being oxygenated.. Does that cross a line for you as well?

This line if inquiry isn't just to be needlessly pedantic, my sport of choice is measured in years, including much down time. A lot can be learned about my chassis prep and Aero with the 14B which is part of the plan in the next two years while getting ready for Bonneville. I just haven't out and said it because there doesn't need to be any "hype" attached to it, as it is configured the car is far from competitive for 1/4 mile. Several hundred pounds can come out easily, but then the driver still weighs 308lbs. I could also just run my surge tank, drop the main tank, pull the interior etc. The car would still be ~2600lbs empty.

But it would magnify some of the other weaknesses to the setup having to rely on such a small turbo for motivation. Of the dozen or so turbos I've ran just on my DSMs.. the 14B is in the top 3, with the S200sx being right at the top. I keep everything I need to switch back on hand, and usually do so between bigger setups.

Phil - the goal is to put my money where my mouth is, I do understand that sentiment. Other components of your attitude I find curious. I fund my LSR program with design and tune work on multiple platforms across the spectrum of motor sport. Much of which can be applied here and vice versa. For example, I tune an SCCA Pro-Solo car, that even with its index and a very talented driver had a few glaring disadvantages. Yet we do everything we can think of, which keeps us competitive, often finishing in the top 3 or 5 while heavily out gunned.

we pick the brains of those around us, those in other classes, etc.. Would you then not take any of that and use it on your drag program or your own circuit ambitions? Simply because it's not in the exact context of what you currently do? Let alone mock others who do?

It almost comes across like you feel threatened, as though there is a lot of ego tied to this for you. Just way to defensive, at least from my perspective. All the same I would still ask questions of you in my quest to go roughly twice as fast as your best 14b trap speed while running compressors nearly three inches at the inducer face. There's no such thing as too much data and no one had a monopoly on good ideas

Edit: In case it wasnt clear.. you have no need to be defensive, the numbers are certainly something to be proud of. Merely my observation on some of this posturing.

 

[SBstar]

I run q16 that's prett much an exotic oxygenated fuel

I'm referring to stuff like nitromethane and all that ftw stuff. And, I really don't want to start the whole what's allowed and what's not debate again, we've seen where that goes.

At the end of the day, let's just go out and enjoy some drag racing eh? Go get some numbers, speculation, ideas, and "hypothesis" don't mean diddly unless you put them to the test and produce numbers. What's the eta on being back on the 14b Justin? Let's see some of those back pressure readings and see some results.

 

[1qkfwd]

I'm referring to stuff like nitromethane and all that ftw stuff. And, I really don't want to start the whole what's allowed and what's not debate again, we've seen where that goes.

At the end of the day, let's just go out and enjoy some drag racing eh? Go get some numbers, speculation, ideas, and "hypothesis" don't mean diddly unless you put them to the test and produce numbers. What's the eta on being back on the 14b Justin? Let's see some of those back pressure readings and see some results.

Sorry , that was my witty sarcastic remark to throw in the mix.

I'll have it on right after the 28th. So I'll be running it with the 14b on aug 23rd in Fallon. I'll be reading backpressure the 28th on the 16g though to get me started.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Sorry , that was my witty sarcastic remark to throw in the mix.

I'll have it on right after the 28th. So I'll be running it with the 14b on aug 23rd in Fallon. I'll be reading backpressure the 28th on the 16g though to get me started.

Excellent, are you logging it too? Or just gauge on the dash?

 

[1qkfwd]

Excellent, are you logging it too? Or just gauge on the dash?

Hell I can't even watch the 3 gauges I have now . I'll be logging it with my last link input. Then I think I'll try to purchase the aem aq1 logger setup so I can log extra temp sensors and pressure sensors.

 

[Phil1320]

Phil - the goal is to put my money where my mouth is, I do understand that sentiment. components of your attitude I find curious. I fund my LSR program with design and tune work on multiple platforms across the spectrum of motor sport. Much of which can be applied here and vice versa. For example, I tune an SCCA Pro-Solo car, that even with its index and a very talented driver had a few glaring disadvantages. Yet we do everything we can think of, which keeps us competitive, often finishing in the top 3 or 5 while heavily out gunned.

we pick the brains of those around us, those in other classes, etc.. Would you then not take any of that and use it on your drag program or your own circuit ambitions? Simply because it's not in the exact context of what you currently do? Let alone mock others who do?

It almost comes across like you feel threatened, as though there is a lot of ego tied to this for you. Just way to defensive, at least from my perspective. All the same I would still ask questions of you in my quest to go roughly twice as fast as your best 14b trap speed while running compressors nearly three inches at the inducer face. There's no such thing as too much data and no one had a monopoly on good ideas

Edit: In case it wasnt clear.. you have no need to be defensive, the numbers are certainly something to be proud of. Merely my observation on some of this posturing.

I would say 95% of people up here see me the exact same way you do, at least here on the forum through typed words at a minimum. So, I won't say your view is incorrect. I don't have many 'friends' up here. But, that's ok. I give the moderators something to talk about behind the scenes, so I'm told....haha.

Threatened, no. As I said previously, I'd get up off my ass and put my car together if that was the case...you know, to go to the track and ACTUALLY run some numbers, and collect a TIMESLIP. Something I probably have 700+ of. Something that some people who come up here running their mouths and taking jabs, have ZERO of.

But, apparently, you and others read me the same, so it's gotta be something.

Also keep in mind, I view others too here. I might make the wrong call with some of them, but, some I know I've been right about.

Anyway,

Yeah, I'm always taking other ideas and/or things done into consideration and such. Should I learn something that peaks my interest, sure I might try it. I'm currently trying to decide what avenue I will take when the car goes back together, whenever that might be. For now, I'm just sittin' back with my bucket of popcorn...

 

[biglady112]

Not to take away from anything that Dave accomplished as he certainly knows what he is doing, but you folks really need to get over what his car made on the dyno. It is quite easy to skew numbers on a Mustang Dyno. Mid 11's@118 is a good run however. The only way to really compare is to use Dynojet numbers as they are usually pretty close from dyno to dyno in our experience.

And for those of you who doubt me, our own beloved AMS just posted this video showing how easy it is to get false readings from a Mustang Dyno.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDwjfZvmPHg]AMS Performance Dyno Parameter Manipulation Overview - YouTube[/ame]

 

[1SloEvo]

Lol...and you don't think the same is said for a dynojet? I have been on the FFTec dyno that Dave was on, seen countless cars that have been on their dyno, and I know it's done the same every time. Their software has curb weights for vehicles, so it loads the dyno per that weight. And they don't do weather corrections...the power you make is in that given atmosphere and weather.

I knew I shouldn't have said anything about dynos.

 

[SBstar]

Ok, so today I put together an HDR (home depot racing) intake for some testing. Remember this all flows through a 2g maf attached to a cheap 3-2.5" hard intake pipe, recirculated bov.

To start out, according to my phone the current temp is 79*

I first pieced together my intake, this is a real simple ghetto fab intake using 4" vent ducting, and a very fancy PVC velocity stack (it's 4" out to 6" I believe with a nice taper).

I took the car out, warmed it up (coolant temps on both runs were nearly identical between 183-186') I hooked up the laptop and did a quick 2nd gear pull. The highlights include.

Max airflow of 267.9 gm/s = to 35.4 lbs per min shown at 6000 rpms
Starting intake temp of 81* tapering down to 77* at let-off
Knock starting 6.7* at 3500 down to 5.3* at let-off (7100ish rpms)
Due to knock timing is a whopping 8* at 3500 tapering to 12.7* at 6750
Boostest at 5500 showed 22 psi
Boostest showed a maximum of 29.3 psi

I then swapped back to my K&N filter in the engine bay and repeated the process. Same 2nd gear pull.

Max airflow of 259.4 gm/s = to 34.3 lbs per min shown at 6500 rpms
Starting intake temp of 115*, going up to 118* at 3700 rpms and then tapering back down to 102* at let-off
Only .4* of knock at one small blip of the log
Timing starting at 12* at 3500 tapering up to 19* at 6500 (drops to 18" around 6750)
Boostest at 5500 shows 20 psi
Boostest showed a maximum of 25.8 psi

Obviously due to the knock pulling timing, the stock K&N filter in place felt like a much stronger pull. I did not look at the boost gauge during either run, but judging by the boostEst in each log the car was making more psi on the run with the modified intake on. I can't say exactly but if I use the boostest I'd say it had a much larger spike! Both airflows level off at 5000 rpms and stay fairly constant until I let off the gas.

So now comes figuring out what to make of this data. My first impression is that I have to figure out how to make the custom ram/cold air intake work! I'm going to make a guess that if I were to turn down the boost controller I could control the spike back down to about 25 psi instead of what appeared to be 29 psi. This may take care of that knock I seen. This would have the turbo not working nearly as hard, meaning less heat being generated, and it would make the same or more airflow at the same boost level as before. Add to that the cooler intake charge and I'd put money on the car making more power!

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Ok, so today I put together an HDR (home depot racing) intake for some testing. Remember this all flows through a 2g maf attached to a cheap 3-2.5" hard intake pipe, recirculated bov.

To start out, according to my phone the current temp is 79*

I first pieced together my intake, this is a real simple ghetto fab intake using 4" vent ducting, and a very fancy PVC velocity stack (it's 4" out to 6" I believe with a nice taper).

I took the car out, warmed it up (coolant temps on both runs were nearly identical between 183-186') I hooked up the laptop and did a quick 2nd gear pull. The highlights include.

Max airflow of 267.9 gm/s = to 35.4 lbs per min shown at 6000 rpms
Starting intake temp of 81* tapering down to 77* at let-off
Knock starting 6.7* at 3500 down to 5.3* at let-off (7100ish rpms)
Due to knock timing is a whopping 8* at 3500 tapering to 12.7* at 6750
Boostest at 5500 showed 22 psi
Boostest showed a maximum of 29.3 psi

I then swapped back to my K&N filter in the engine bay and repeated the process. Same 2nd gear pull.

Max airflow of 259.4 gm/s = to 34.3 lbs per min shown at 6500 rpms
Starting intake temp of 115*, going up to 118* at 3700 rpms and then tapering back down to 102* at let-off
Only .4* of knock at one small blip of the log
Timing starting at 12* at 3500 tapering up to 19* at 6500 (drops to 18" around 6750)
Boostest at 5500 shows 20 psi
Boostest showed a maximum of 25.8 psi

Obviously due to the knock pulling timing, the stock K&N filter in place felt like a much stronger pull. I did not look at the boost gauge during either run, but judging by the boostEst in each log the car was making more psi on the run with the modified intake on. I can't say exactly but if I use the boostest I'd say it had a much larger spike! Both airflows level off at 5000 rpms and stay fairly constant until I let off the gas.

So now comes figuring out what to make of this data. My first impression is that I have to figure out how to make the custom ram/cold air intake work! I'm going to make a guess that if I were to turn down the boost controller I could control the spike back down to about 25 psi instead of what appeared to be 29 psi. This may take care of that knock I seen. This would have the turbo not working nearly as hard, meaning less heat being generated, and it would make the same or more airflow at the same boost level as before. Add to that the cooler intake charge and I'd put money on the car making more power!

Good stuff! Those are the same flow numbers I was seeing last time I had the 14b on the car, les boost though. But the air was real cold.

Find out how much of that increase is a result of positive pressure at the inlet. The turbo doesn't know what is being fed. Its job is just to multiply the pressure.

So if your standard setup is running 30 psi boost with a DA of zero.. so ambient pressure of 14.7psi, that is a PR of 3.0. Same setup using a ram intake which at speed generates say 1.5psi over smbient at the inlet is now going to make 33.9psi boost. All while imparting the same amount of heat on the charge.

 

[SBstar]

Ok, went out for Test #3
Put the HDR intake back on, turned the boost controller down.

Important notes:
No knock
Boostest shows 1 psi higher at 5500 then the K&N filter, despite peak boost spike being down. 21.5 vs. the 20.4
Boostest peak was 24.7 psi (1 psi less then the K&N pull)
Timing does the same thing as during the K&N on run #2
Airflow shows a peak of 262.9 gm/s = 34.7 lbs per min (half a lb more then the K&N filter setup)
Intake temp from 86-80 degrees during pull.

I have no doubt I could get away with a bit more boost without knocking as well. There is no doubt in my mind that a Cold-air/Ram air intake works. Proof is in the #'s now.

Good stuff! Those are the same flow numbers I was seeing last time I had the 14b on the car, les boost though. But the air was real cold.

Find out how much of that increase is a result of positive pressure at the inlet. The turbo doesn't know what is being fed. Its job is just to multiply the pressure.

So if your standard setup is running 30 psi boost with a DA of zero.. so ambient pressure of 14.7psi, that is a PR of 3.0. Same setup using a ram intake which at speed generates say 1.5psi over smbient at the inlet is now going to make 33.9psi boost. All while imparting the same amount of heat on the charge.

It's 80+ degrees outside now as well for the 3rd run. The car has shown to run up to a tenth quicker when the ambient temperature is down around 60-65 vs. 75-80+ temps so there is definitely a difference in airflow.

I don't have any sensors to see what the pressure change is at. Obviously it makes a difference though!

 

[1qkfwd]

Like I've said before, a ram intake with these small turbos make such a huge difference. I've even contemplated upping mine again but to 3.5 or even a 4" setup. But I do need to ditch the air horn and make an air scoop.

I wish I was seeing the airflow numbers you guys are seeing. My last two outtings where 30-31lbs/min across the board. Thats a 21psi boost spike in 3rd dropping to 15psi at about 6000rpm. Still netted 11.11@123 with those numbers.

 

[SBstar]

Like I've said before, a ram intake with these small turbos make such a huge difference. I've even contemplated upping mine again but to 3.5 or even a 4" setup. But I do need to ditch the air horn and make an air scoop.

I wish I was seeing the airflow numbers you guys are seeing. My last two outtings where 31-32lbs/min across the board. Still netted 11.11@123 with those numbers.

Get to the "right" track and you'll see those #'s. You were 100% right on the money about the intake Justin. I'd love to see if the #'s would change using a full 3" (or larger) intake pipe attached to the maf, then out to the 4" cold/ram air piping instead of my goofy current pipe.

I'm probably going to test this out on the track as well, judging by these results it should show some ET/mph gains. But, I'd really like to make it out of actual aluminum piping.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Get to the "right" track and you'll see those #'s. You were 100% right on the money about the intake Justin. I'd love to see if the #'s would change using a full 3" (or larger) intake pipe attached to the maf, then out to the 4" cold/ram air piping instead of my goofy current pipe.

I'm probably going to test this out on the track as well, judging by these results it should show some ET/mph gains. But, I'd really like to make it out of actual aluminum piping.

I'd be curious to see this as well. Keeping turns to a minimum, as far away from the compressor as feasibly and transitioning down smoothly/gradually down to the 14B's inlet size will be the trick.

Concentric reducers for exhaust systems may come in handy. I think I saw a cone that went from 5" down to 1" over the course of a foot or so in length that you could use on the straight section. A bell-mouth leading to a single turn to the reducing section would be just about ideal.

Now couple that with a drop in drive:boost ratio..

 

[SBstar]

I think the setup Joe Bucci did was perfect. I don't know what size piping he used, but there was limited turns and a true velocity stack on the front of the car, everything closed off around it.

http://www.joebucci.com/images/NewLaserPics/DCP_0075.JPG

http://www.joebucci.com/images/NewLaserPics/DCP_0055.JPG

He also ran SD so he didn't have the maf in there making the setup more complicated. I'm going to stick with running mine into the old smic location, and out to the front bumper until I make that switch.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I've seen a ton of data from V8 cars, which operate on a bigger scale, but force feeding the compressor (compound turbocharging takes this to the extreme) definitely has many advantages. More power (mostly mph), more peak boost on maxed out compressors, or lower turbine drive pressure if they're running on the boost controller. There can't really be any debate about it, but it's always good to see relevant numbers from DSMs. Ideally you'd log boost pressure at least. Boost Est is just a calculation based on airflow, rpm, displacement, and an assumption of 100% VE, so it's not telling you anything more than airflow is.

 

[SBstar]

Ideally, I'd do a lot of things differently

I agree, boostest means next to nothing, but it's just another spot that showed the gains. Overall, the airflow number is what I ultimately care about. Being able to get close to another lb per minute out of a small maxed out turbo is a nice gain.

 

[Phil1320]

Pretty awesome experiment Shane. Hope it nets you something in ET next time you hit the track. Nice work.

 

[SBstar]

Pretty awesome experiment Shane. Hope it nets you something in ET next time you hit the track. Nice work.

That makes two of us! Should be good for a couple hp, might be enough for a gain.