The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Nate Crisman]

Most of the time, that's all you get.

I never datalogged once, never even looked at one. Still ran like a bat outta hell. But, as much stock as you put in it...apparently, I'd be a whole hell of a lot quicker than I am. I think that's funny.

Going to the track is also data, just as useful as data logs and dyno charts....so you have been collecting accurate data over the course of it! Hasn't one of the biggest things in this thread been that we value real results over guestimation?

I think what leon is trying to get at is the "it feels faster" doesn't necessarily mean it actually is faster...regarding 2.4 vs 2.0.

 

[Phil1320]

Going to the track is also data, just as useful as data logs and dyno charts....so you have been collecting accurate data over the course of it! Hasn't one of the biggest things in this thread been that we value real results over guestimation?

I think what leon is trying to get at is the "it feels faster" doesn't necessarily mean it actually is faster...regarding 2.4 vs 2.0.

That's true....I have my timeslips.....for sure, results>guestimation for sure.

I see what you mean, as in, the feeling of a monster gob of torque coming in sooner from the 2.4 might not translate into quicker ET's at the strip...

 

[ArcticTsi]

I think that you'll find your car comes back to life pretty quick. Over the last 5-7 years my car has been doing alot of sitting as well. But, it never protesed once when I tried to fire it up.....and it always went out to the track and performed beyond my expectation. Definitely want to see some pics up here once you get it all cleaned up....it's a killer looking Talon.

Well, its official. I have uncovered my Talon from its dusty spot in the garage. I went ahead and weighed it last night(with about 6 gallons in the tank). I did not know the weight of the car during my 12.1 pass I did in 2004. The car has pretty much been sitting since then(I was stationed overseas). The only thing missing from the car in the pic since that 12.1 pass is my exhaust. fabricating a new one. My scale is + or - 5lbs. I wanted to get a good baseline on the weight before I start putting her on a diet. I dont plan on doing anything differently performance wise to the car. It is a roadcourse/AutoXr. So I will keep the motor/turbo stock and I need the big wheels/big brakes and all the suspension/reinforcements goodies to keep the cars handling and braking predicatable and most importantly reliable. My goal is to trim alot of the fat off the car.

So I ran a 12.17 @ 111.9 with a 1.7 60ft. On 18" roadcourse wheels with street tires. The car weighed 2720 and with me about 2900.

Just glad to have the motivation back. Thanks go to Phil(Phil1320), Nathan( 9!'clipseDOHC) and my brothers Juan & Paul for this. We'll see what the car can really do since I wont be moving any time soon. Hopefully I can continue to give the car the attention to realize its true potential.

excuse the car as it has not be cleaned in a very long time.

 

[1990AWD]

I love your car, so clean!

 

[bastarddsm]

As a side note, IMO, a 2.4l will make the same total power as a 2.0L, just in a different rpm spread.

I don't know about that. I know this is a different world, but....... I help tune a prostock duramax (400cu in) pull truck motor, we run a billet wheel HX60. We are out of turbo at about 1400hp@3300rpm. 5.9l cummins are getting about 1380@3600, and a Superfarm tractor uses the same turbo but at 640 cu in, makes about 1430@2700RPM. All on the same dyno, under similar weather conditions. All three engines are the baddest of the bad in each catagory, so we feel we are maxing it out.

What I think is happening is that the larger engines make the power at a lower RPM, so therefore they have less parasitic losses. Typically, parasitic loss due to friction goes up with the square of the RPM, where losses do to bearing size and such, go up linearly. That means that the RPM factor has a lot bigger effect on the parasitic losses.

So its quite possibly a 2.4 might be worth 10 or even 20hp over a 2.0. AND, we all know how much better these trans's shift at low RPM.

Just a thought from my experience.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

In my opinion, more displacement is almost always better. When you can make the same power at lower boost and lower rpm and get more torque too, why not. I doubt any of those guys with their low reving V8s making 1200 hp at 20 psi are wishing they had a high strung 2 liter at 60 psi. In the specific case of the 2.0 vs the 2.3 though, only stroke increases, which can cause some issues, but I don't think any of them outweight the benefits. The only real reason I see for sticking with a 2 liter is on a gear limited DSM or fear of breaking DSM parts. When you have the gearing to take advantage of more displacement and have much stronger drivetrain parts (or relatively low 14b power levels), it always makes sense to go bigger IMO. If my two liter ever quits it's getting replaced by a 2.3/2.4 and a taller rear gear.

Better or worse, I'll bet the power difference between 2.0 and 2.3 when compressor limited with a maxed out 14b is not even worth mentioning.

 

[bastarddsm]

Better or worse, I'll bet the power difference between 2.0 and 2.3 when compressor limited with a maxed out 14b is not even worth mentioning.

Your probably right, but it would be interesting to see. I still have this sneaking suspicion that a 2.3/2.4 should ET better.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Well, its official. I have uncovered my Talon from its dusty spot in the garage. I went ahead and weighed it last night(with about 6 gallons in the tank). I did not know the weight of the car during my 12.1 pass I did in 2004. The car has pretty much been sitting since then(I was stationed overseas). The only thing missing from the car in the pic since that 12.1 pass is my exhaust. fabricating a new one. My scale is + or - 5lbs. I wanted to get a good baseline on the weight before I start putting her on a diet. I dont plan on doing anything differently performance wise to the car. It is a roadcourse/AutoXr. So I will keep the motor/turbo stock and I need the big wheels/big brakes and all the suspension/reinforcements goodies to keep the cars handling and braking predicatable and most importantly reliable. My goal is to trim alot of the fat off the car.

So I ran a 12.17 @ 111.9 with a 1.7 60ft. On 18" roadcourse wheels with street tires. The car weighed 2720 and with me about 2900.

Just glad to have the motivation back. Thanks go to Phil(Phil1320), Nathan( 9!'clipseDOHC) and my brothers Juan & Paul for this. We'll see what the car can really do since I wont be moving any time soon. Hopefully I can continue to give the car the attention to realize its true potential.

excuse the car as it has not be cleaned in a very long time.

Alright! Good to see you getting out there and getting her ready! I can't wait to see the progress, I'm sure it will be top notch just like the rest of your car!

I started driving mine again today with the new rebuilt 14b (Thanks Justin!)! I've got it running wastegate pressure at 16psi for now since I have my first autox event of the year this Sunday! Then hopefully I'll turn it back to 20 for the drag strip next Friday, weather permitting.

 

[Phil1320]

excuse the car as it has not be cleaned in a very long time.

^That's funny as hell...car looks great, how couldn't it, it hasn't seen the light of day for a while!

Awesome man! It will be cool to see it in action, well, ok, in pics of it in action

So, maybe 2750 with exhaust back on the car.

Alright! Good to see you getting out there and getting her ready! I can't wait to see the progress, I'm sure it will be top notch just like the rest of your car!

I started driving mine again today with the new rebuilt 14b (Thanks Justin!)! I've got it running wastegate pressure at 16psi for now since I have my first autox event of the year this Sunday! Then hopefully I'll turn it back to 20 for the drag strip next Friday, weather permitting.

Nice! Will you get some pics at this event? If so post em up here or in Road Racing.....

Your probably right, but it would be interesting to see. I still have this sneaking suspicion that a 2.3/2.4 should ET better.

The one problem I see is with the shifting really, I mean, I already shift immediately out of 1st gear and 2nd gear.....so if power will be made earlier in the RPM range I think it will be impossible to make the shifts well. I think the stroker might work better with the A/T set-up....

 

[bastarddsm]

The one problem I see is with the shifting really, I mean, I already shift immediately out of 1st gear and 2nd gear.....so if power will be made earlier in the RPM range I think it will be impossible to make the shifts well. I think the stroker might work better with the A/T set-up....

True, but our trannys shift way better at low RPM. So couple that with maybe an Evo3 first gear, and you got the hot setup.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Nice! Will you get some pics at this event? If so post em up here or in Road Racing....

You'd better believe it! Pics and vids with my new GoPro!

Here is a comparison between my old and new 14b's. By the way, Justin looked over my old one and found this: the shaft was blue with tons of bearing transfer, and the turbine-side journal bearing got so hot it seized in the journal preventing any oil from getting through and the shaft was turning inside it at full speed. It just so happens that I had pulled out my -4 AN feed line and dropped the stock feed line back in when I installed the new 7cm hotside... just 100 miles ago. Needless to say I went back to the -4 AN line and also added an oil pressure gauge where the feed line connects to the turbo to make sure this doesn't happen again.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Nice! Will you get some pics at this event? If so post em up here or in Road Racing.....

Since this is the 14b DRAG race thread so I won't post everything here but check out my build journal for more on the autox event yesterday (write up, pics, and video): http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dsm-build-journals/418713-9-eclipse-n-t-turbo-fwd-street-drag-autox-2.html#post152893590

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

On another, more related note, what do you guys see as far as oil pressure at your 14b's?

Since my last one died due to insufficient oil, i'm taking this very seriously. I added an oil pressure gauge to my 14b's oil feed line on the turbo side. So far I see a MAX of 20-21 psi, regardless of the RPM. It hits 20 early on and that it, it won't go any higher. Does anyone else see numbers like this? I am feeding from the head with a 4 -AN line.

Justin recommended high 30/low 40 psi at the turbo. I'm going to try porting the banjo bolt, but it seems like that all I'm going to be able to get since it's hitting a brick wall. If I can't get it higher from the head them I'll have to move to the OFH and play with restrictors.

How are you guys feeding oil to your turbo's?

 

[1990AWD]

I'm running FP's line from the OFH with their 10 micron filter drilled out to a .075" restriction per Justin's instructions. Turbo ran great at 20-22 psi but I had never checked the actual oil pressure.

 

[Phil1320]

Since this is the 14b DRAG race thread so I won't post everything here but check out my build journal for more on the autox event yesterday (write up, pics, and video): http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dsm-build-journals/418713-9-eclipse-n-t-turbo-fwd-street-drag-autox-2.html#post152893590

Sweet! I'll check it out!

On another, more related note, what do you guys see as far as oil pressure at your 14b's?

Since my last one died due to insufficient oil, i'm taking this very seriously. I added an oil pressure gauge to my 14b's oil feed line on the turbo side. So far I see a MAX of 20-21 psi, regardless of the RPM. It hits 20 early on and that it, it won't go any higher. Does anyone else see numbers like this? I am feeding from the head with a 4 -AN line.

Justin recommended high 30/low 40 psi at the turbo. I'm going to try porting the banjo bolt, but it seems like that all I'm going to be able to get since it's hitting a brick wall. If I can't get it higher from the head them I'll have to move to the OFH and play with restrictors.

How are you guys feeding oil to your turbo's?

I've been just running the stock feed off the head, never had an issue. When my car goes back together I'll be sure to research it a bit....

 

[pneumo]

When I ran the 14b I used the stock feed line from the head, but after several months and a dozen trips to the track there was noticeable wear in the turbo bearings. Then I switched to a 16G and fed oil from the filter housing unrestricted. No problems with that setup; no smoke and no wear after nearly 2 hard years of use with the wastegate clamped shut.

 

[ArcticTsi]

Since this is the 14b DRAG race thread so I won't post everything here but check out my build journal for more on the autox event yesterday (write up, pics, and video)

Great write up and great pics. Cant wait to get my running solid again and out there bangin cones.

How are you guys feeding oil to your turbo's?

I have been running the same original stock oil line that came on the car, no issues.

 

[GRNDSM]

I never had a problem with feeding 14b/16g turbos from the stock location (from the head). That is despite the fact that oil pressure the that location drops down under 3psi at hot idle! That is too low for most 100psi gauges to register, so they just read ZERO!

Yet, apprently, that is enough for those turbos to survive...

 

[Nate Crisman]

Iv had results that could be interpreted as "bad head - ofh good" but I still don't trust it fully.

I ran a 14b on my GVR4 in a "max boost" configuration where I was basically letting the turbo run with the wastegate duty cycle at 100% at all times. (the 12.0@112 combo) After going to the track like that 3 times along with maybe 2000miles of street use, the turbo shaft snapped in half...I'll have to go look and take it apart to see if there are signs of oil starvation. That was oil fed with the stock line from the stock location.

Conversly, I ran the current 14b with an unrestricted -4AN line off the ofh for about 15 passes last year at again, max boost the entire time. That same turbo is on my everyday car and has another 2000 miles on it with tons of WOT testing (at only ~20psi max) and it has absolutely no shaft play or smoke.

Granted....the first 14b died on the GVR4, then I put a s16g on the Galant and immediatly found a rod bearing knock...so the first 14b could have died due to oil contamination from the rod bearing in combination with low oil pressure. Also it's possible the actual oil pressure was down due to the rod bearings big clearance. Dont' know..GVR4's don't have oil pressure gauges. The s16g that replaced it was still alive and well when I sold the car (after a motor swap) and made 117mph vs the 112mph 14b in the same "max boost" mode.

So...there's some data...take it for what you will. I run my oil feed from the OFH...if/when I run into a smoking issue, then I'll think about trying a restrictor or swapping the feed location to test if it's oil pressure or just a worn out turbo. But thus far, I see no downside to running from the OFH.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

I'm running FP's line from the OFH with their 10 micron filter drilled out to a .075" restriction per Justin's instructions. Turbo ran great at 20-22 psi but I had never checked the actual oil pressure.

Sweet! I'll check it out!

I've been just running the stock feed off the head, never had an issue. When my car goes back together I'll be sure to research it a bit....

When I ran the 14b I used the stock feed line from the head, but after several months and a dozen trips to the track there was noticeable wear in the turbo bearings. Then I switched to a 16G and fed oil from the filter housing unrestricted. No problems with that setup; no smoke and no wear after nearly 2 hard years of use with the wastegate clamped shut.

Great write up and great pics. Cant wait to get my running solid again and out there bangin cones.

I have been running the same original stock oil line that came on the car, no issues.

I never had a problem with feeding 14b/16g turbos from the stock location (from the head). That is despite the fact that oil pressure the that location drops down under 3psi at hot idle! That is too low for most 100psi gauges to register, so they just read ZERO!

Yet, apprently, that is enough for those turbos to survive...

Iv had results that could be interpreted as "bad head - ofh good" but I still don't trust it fully.

I ran a 14b on my GVR4 in a "max boost" configuration where I was basically letting the turbo run with the wastegate duty cycle at 100% at all times. (the 12.0@112 combo) After going to the track like that 3 times along with maybe 2000miles of street use, the turbo shaft snapped in half...I'll have to go look and take it apart to see if there are signs of oil starvation. That was oil fed with the stock line from the stock location.

Conversly, I ran the current 14b with an unrestricted -4AN line off the ofh for about 15 passes last year at again, max boost the entire time. That same turbo is on my everyday car and has another 2000 miles on it with tons of WOT testing (at only ~20psi max) and it has absolutely no shaft play or smoke.

Granted....the first 14b died on the GVR4, then I put a s16g on the Galant and immediatly found a rod bearing knock...so the first 14b could have died due to oil contamination from the rod bearing in combination with low oil pressure. Also it's possible the actual oil pressure was down due to the rod bearings big clearance. Dont' know..GVR4's don't have oil pressure gauges. The s16g that replaced it was still alive and well when I sold the car (after a motor swap) and made 117mph vs the 112mph 14b in the same "max boost" mode.

So...there's some data...take it for what you will. I run my oil feed from the OFH...if/when I run into a smoking issue, then I'll think about trying a restrictor or swapping the feed location to test if it's oil pressure or just a worn out turbo. But thus far, I see no downside to running from the OFH.

I added an oil pressure gauge to my turbo oil feed line to see what my oil pressure is. It was only hitting a max of 20 psi, even at full RPM's and boost. This was with a 4 -AN oil feed line from the head. I looked into it last night and I found part of the problem. The stock oil feed line has a restrictor built into it. The 4 -AN line obviously doesn't but it does have a restrictor built into the banjo bolt. I pulled the aftermarket bolt out and reinstalled the factory banjo bolt along with the 4 -AN line. When I first started up the car this morning the pressure went up to almost 40 psi at the turbo so I thought I was good to go. However, once the car warmed up I went out for a pull it was only hitting 27 psi. This is still lower then the 30-40 psi that I would like to see so I'll probably still end up switching to the OFH with a restrictor to try to get more pressure at the turbo.

 

[red1993gsallmt]

When I ran the 14b I used the stock feed line from the head, but after several months and a dozen trips to the track there was noticeable wear in the turbo bearings. Then I switched to a 16G and fed oil from the filter housing unrestricted. No problems with that setup; no smoke and no wear after nearly 2 hard years of use with the wastegate clamped shut.

when you say wastegate clamped shut, do you mean you let the the turbo run away with no wastegate at all???

 

[pneumo]

when you say wastegate clamped shut, do you mean you let the the turbo run away with no wastegate at all???

yep
don't try this at home......

 

[JusMX141]

Iv had results that could be interpreted as "bad head - ofh good" but I still don't trust it fully.

I've had a few guys who were really pushing Small 16G's suffer meltdowns when fed from the head using the factory line....never really had guys pushing 14B's that much until recently, but Nate's results prove the same thing is possible. Not sure whether any of these cars had the head milled or anything that would hinder oil flow at the head.

Mitsubishi chooses to feed the 14B at the head from the factory as it works perfectly for the low factory boost levels the car was designed to run, and not ever drowning the cartridge to the point where the turbo would need serviced every 10k to repair blown seals. Now if you double the boost level or go even higher and the factory head feed probably isn't going to cut it. They recommend 42-48psi of peak oil pressure entering the cartridge- unrestricted from the filter housing could easily double this, which can be just as fatal as not having enough oil. Mitsu turbos can operate at ridiculously low oil pressures that will cause an instant failure to any other journal beairng turbo...but personally I don't think your boost level should ever exceed your oil pressure level entering the turbo.

Think of it this way- looking at the 14B compressor map, the peak airflow rating has the compressor turning an astounding 170,000 rpms. Those pushing the turbo in excess of the map are turning it even faster. That's far faster than a Big 16G is turning at the same boost level or even at it's peak airflow RPM of 145,000....which could mean the difference between life and death from a head-fed TD05H turbo.

yep
don't try this at home......

I had considered this on the 14B eventually going on Dave's car, but I was concerned that engine loads varying by gear selection would also effect boost levels by gear.

 

[Phil1320]

when you say wastegate clamped shut, do you mean you let the the turbo run away with no wastegate at all???

However this is very unneccesary to run fast. If you're light Also, do you want to run fast once, or all the time? Questions to consider...

I've had a few guys who were really pushing Small 16G's suffer meltdowns when fed from the head using the factory line....never really had guys pushing 14B's that much until recently, but Nate's results prove the same thing is possible. Not sure whether any of these cars had the head milled or anything that would hinder oil flow at the head.

Mitsubishi chooses to feed the 14B at the head from the factory as it works perfectly for the low factory boost levels the car was designed to run, and not
Think of it this way- looking at the 14B compressor map, the peak airflow rating has the compressor turning an astounding 170,000 rpms. Those pushing the turbo in excess of the map are turning it even faster. That's far faster than a Big 16G is turning at the same boost level or even at it's peak airflow RPM of 145,000....which could mean the difference between life and death from a head-fed TD05H turbo.

So what boost level are you generally speaking of? Double stock? So about 22?

As previously stated, I ran 18-21 psi at the strip from 1998 until 2010. Stock fed from the head, original turbo. If I didn't have the "wrong thread" compressor nut, I'd say the turbo would still be producing great speed.

 

[JusMX141]

So what boost level are you generally speaking of? Double stock? So about 22?

As previously stated, I ran 18-21 psi at the strip from 1998 until 2010. Stock fed from the head, original turbo. If I didn't have the "wrong thread" compressor nut, I'd say the turbo would still be producing great speed.

Yeah, I'd say if you're planning on doubling the stock boost level you may want to consider going to the filter housing with a restrictor to bump up the pressure in the journals a bit.

I'd say 18-21psi is doable on a factory head feed with that turbo- if you're making (and holding) boost into the mid 20's or above, I don't see it lasting too long. Like Nate D. showed above, he was previously seeing just 20psi of oil pressure at the head which is quite low for any journal bearing turbo let alone one that is being used under a max power situation.

Just saying that the race-oriented 14B guys may want to consider getting the oil pressure entering the cartridge up near the factory's recommended maximum operating pressure just to be sure the turbo can continue to function as intended. Then again, if it's been working for you in the past then it will probably continue to work in the future.

All I did was report to Nate D. what I found upon disassembling his blown 14B, and it was a classic case of oil deprivation- not sure if the factory line was kinked or something, but the shaft was blue and there was tons of bearing transfer which shows that there wasn't enough oil present to keep the shaft floating. Looked much like this, but not quite as extreme:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.