The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Phil1320]

The only evidence I have is some results from another friend using one of my HY35's. Ran all season on street tires, trapping consistent 131-133mph passes but never cut better than a 1.8 60ft netting a best E.T. of 11.10. Ten's were just barely out of reach.

Threw Dave's slicks on the car at the tail end of the season and his first trip to the track went 10.86 with a best MPH on the day of 129. Quicker, yet slower than the street tire passes.

hmmmmmmm..........

I mean if you are more concerned with trap speed.......a better launch does generally kill some mph......

in my own experience I've run [email protected] with a 1.52 60' I think and an [email protected] with a 1.48 60' time. 11.59 was in the warm weather of July and the 11.49 was on a moderate October day. Thats a 3 mph spread...both on slicks but the 11.49 pass was with addition of a chip with some timing changes up top, Studder, and NLTS. So I don't know. On street tires(drag radials) just as in your case, the best 60' I could pull was 1.89 and average was 2.0's just spinning all four through the first 3 gears which kept me stuck at 12.0 best. First pass with slicks was a 1.57 60' and right into the 11's with an 11.75.

I really think the ~1.45s you guys are getting are as good as it gets. Clearing up a little bit of tire spin isn't going to make an appreciable difference, slicks still work very well at 10-15% slippage. In fact you aim for that on a more powerful car, since a dead hook likely to cause problems. The solution is usually to add more starting line power or dial out some traction. If you're skating around, that's a different story. To get from 1.45 to 1.39 is going to take an estimated increase from 385hp to 445hp at my 2400lb weight, for example. Alternatively, it would take a 300 lb weight reduction to do the same thing. Neither of these are easy to do once you're already within striking distance of the record, IMO.

Power to weight is the main factor, everything else is done only to make the tire work. If the tire is working, and a slick (4 of them no less) almost certainly is at these power levels, nothing else you do (suspension, tire pressure, weight transfer, etc) will matter much.

Whelp....as I respect your opinion and your overall knowledge......I disagree relative to my own car's set-up. But, I'll use your numbers with relativity:

-60 hp might actually be possible for me because my engine was 100% bone stock right down to the balance shafts--the only advantage I pulled out of that engine is that the balance belt for the front shaft was not installed. That's it.

So, I've got compression, cams, rods, porting, intakes, displacement, dual clutches, crankshafts, etc. all at my disposal to make more power.

-You may be right on the launch but Nate already bested my 1.48 with a 1.46. I have two outings only with the studderbox launching at 12 psi boost. One outing at 15 psi tire pressure, one outing at 12 psi. I'm tellin ya there's room for improvement here. The slicks don't chirp when I launch.....they squeal for 20-30 ft. Also, I don't, and won't make enough HP to worry about breakage if I push on the launch......and if I do break something, so what? I don't compete, I don't have to worry about the next round.....I just do it for fun.

-Weight 300 lbs. is the number you stated relative to your car.

Do I have 300 lbs. I can take out....sure, if I can make my car remote control

Seriously though, my car weighed in at 2255 with a bit more than a 1/4 tank of gas......2460 with me. I'll just go ahead and say that as light as my car is, there's quite a bit more weight to come out, the question is how far do I want to take it. To make this easy, I'll just list off some things that can come off the car and/or be replaced with lighter units:

-gas tank
-front control arms
-side rear spoilers
-misc weather trim
-dashboard
-factory driver seat
-rear 1/4 glass
-door glass
-windshield
-front lower crossmembers
-rear sway bar
-door/fender/rear 1/4 center moldings
-spare tire sheetmetal in rear
-factory brake rotors & calipers
-my current 15" wheels
-front and rear subframes(would probably never entertain)
-factory doors

There may be a couple more things, but, looking at the list there's more than 100 lbs. easy, probably more like between 150-200 lbs.

Pretty significant.......the only kicker is once I'm able(if) to better my 11.49 then its time for a rollbar, finally, which adds a portion back in.....

.....and I agree power to weight is the main factor-this has been my montra with my car for more than a decade.

So, just don't count me out. I've got alot in store and noone will be disappointed....

 

[1SloEvo]

So what you're saying Phil, is that you're still in the hunt for some updated 1/4 mile times with the 14b??? I really hope that's what you're implying. I can't wait to get my Laser out to the track now that she's up and running. A few break in miles on the motor, a nice solid tune, and to the track!

 

[Nate Crisman]

My new toy finally passed nj state emissions today, so...

Let the modding begin!

Will post some cool logs/info soon regarding 14b/7cm back pressure vs. boost pressure curves.

 

[Phil1320]

So what you're saying Phil, is that you're still in the hunt for some updated 1/4 mile times with the 14b??? I really hope that's what you're implying. I can't wait to get my Laser out to the track now that she's up and running. A few break in miles on the motor, a nice solid tune, and to the track!

FOR SURE

Oops...forgot.....and good luck to you at your first outing! I'll be anxious to hear how it goes!

 

[91stocker]

I've given it some thought, and on the RWD those changes likely won't happen. I don't think I can beat the 14b 10.87 on the current setup but I'd still like to see how close it gets. The first run ever on a big 16g was a 10.9, before a lot of the changes that made it fast enough to run the 10.31, so I think it might just dip into the 10s.

I set all of this stuff up so I could transfer it to the mightymax as well if I want to. The truck's setup should still be good for small turbo stuff. ~9:1 2.3 liter, rwd JMF SMIM, tighter converter than the race car, 28x9" drag radial, three speed auto, etc. It's probably ~400 lbs heavier than the RWD but I think it could still go pretty quick. Kait's truck is similar with a 2 liter. Her truck is probably the best bet.

I'm curious to see what the RWD will do for a 60' on a 14b. The converter slip is too high at the launch, but with less power it will slip less too. Power to weight ratio is certainly going to get worse though. I really think the ~1.45s you guys are getting are as good as it gets. Clearing up a little bit of tire spin isn't going to make an appreciable difference, slicks still work very well at 10-15% slippage. In fact you aim for that on a more powerful car, since a dead hook likely to cause problems. The solution is usually to add more starting line power or dial out some traction. If you're skating around, that's a different story. To get from 1.45 to 1.39 is going to take an estimated increase from 385hp to 445hp at my 2400lb weight, for example. Alternatively, it would take a 300 lb weight reduction to do the same thing. Neither of these are easy to do once you're already within striking distance of the record, IMO.

I wasnt really pushing for you specifically to try it. I know it would take a fair bit of money and time to properly set up for a small frame turbo. It would probably make more sense to build another car at the level your at.

Is your 2400lb weight with the compound set up? A simple 14b set up has to be close to 100lbs lighter haha. A stock converter(maybe restalled) and a smaller tire. All that with a high comp 10:1+ build, launching off a trans brake would rape any fwd or awd 14b or not. Similar weight to bucci's car, but launching harder, and still with less drivetrain loss then an awd.

I wish i had the coin to build something like that. Would be great fun.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Whelp....as I respect your opinion and your overall knowledge......I disagree relative to my own car's set-up. But, I'll use your numbers with relativity:

-60 hp might actually be possible for me because my engine was 100% bone stock right down to the balance shafts--the only advantage I pulled out of that engine is that the balance belt for the front shaft was not installed. That's it.

So, I've got compression, cams, rods, porting, intakes, displacement, dual clutches, crankshafts, etc. all at my disposal to make more power.

I'm ok with disagreeing, I'm not always right.

The question to ask here is how much power will those things add when you are completely mass flow limited. I don't know the answer to that, but it's pretty much guaranteed to be much less than they would add if you were not compressor limited.

-You may be right on the launch but Nate already bested my 1.48 with a 1.46. I have two outings only with the studderbox launching at 12 psi boost. One outing at 15 psi tire pressure, one outing at 12 psi. I'm tellin ya there's room for improvement here. The slicks don't chirp when I launch.....they squeal for 20-30 ft. Also, I don't, and won't make enough HP to worry about breakage if I push on the launch......and if I do break something, so what? I don't compete, I don't have to worry about the next round.....I just do it for fun.

I still predict that clearing up that spinning for 20-30 feet will have a very small effect on the 60'. I'd have to see a decent video to be sure, but I'm betting the tire is still working pretty well there.

There may be a couple more things, but, looking at the list there's more than 100 lbs. easy, probably more like between 150-200 lbs.

That will definitely help!

So, just don't count me out. I've got alot in store and noone will be disappointed....

Good. Nothing in any of my posts is ever meant to discourage anyone from trying anything. Shit, the majority of what I do is trying stuff that people generally think won't work. And as I always say, there's only one way to find out. I do hope that you guys CAN get into the 1.3s, but I'll still be surprised to see it happen.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I wasnt really pushing for you specifically to try it. I know it would take a fair bit of money and time to properly set up for a small frame turbo. It would probably make more sense to build another car at the level your at.

It would, but either Mightymax is close enough to try it. The weight is the main problem since we're not sure yet what either of them comes in at. All of the times I brought my truck up to the track the scales were closed.

Is your 2400lb weight with the compound set up? A simple 14b set up has to be close to 100lbs lighter haha.

The car was 2440 with the compounds, and about ~2375 with the 16g I believe. I know I posted the number somewhere but I can't find it. With me in and full race weight of course.

A stock converter(maybe restalled) and a smaller tire. All that with a high comp 10:1+ build, launching off a trans brake would rape any fwd or awd 14b or not. Similar weight to bucci's car, but launching harder, and still with less drivetrain loss then an awd.

For the lowest drivetrain loss, something without a converter would kick even more ass. G- force, etc. But of course anyone with a really nice trans isn't messing around with 14Bs typically.

 

[Phil1320]

I'm ok with disagreeing, I'm not always right.

The question to ask here is how much power will those things add when you are completely mass flow limited. I don't know the answer to that, but it's pretty much guaranteed to be much less than they would add if you were not compressor limited.



I still predict that clearing up that spinning for 20-30 feet will have a very small effect on the 60'. I'd have to see a decent video to be sure, but I'm betting the tire is still working pretty well there.



That will definitely help!



Good. Nothing in any of my posts is ever meant to discourage anyone from trying anything. Shit, the majority of what I do is trying stuff that people generally think won't work. And as I always say, there's only one way to find out. I do hope that you guys CAN get into the 1.3s, but I'll still be surprised to see it happen.

I'm sure you're right about the slick spinning...however, check my dsmtuners calendar cover....there's barely any "wrinkle" at all....that was at 15 psi cutting 1.50's.

I still have launch rpm that I can adjust.....however I'm at 6000 now. Not sure the 14b will build too much more than 12 psi, but I thought I heard someone say they were getting 15 or so.

My prediction for overall race weight is 2275....so we can work with that.


My HP number was 295 on an AWD dynojet.

Pneumo made 324 on an AWD Mustang(I hate saying that word)dyno

According to what just about everyone says, Dynojets read high, Mustangs read low(that makes sense haha) or conservative.

Number for number hes making 29 more AWHP......so, Dynojet to Mustang translation??? Guesses? My guess is he makes 50 AWHP more than me at the minimum...his race weight is 450 or so pounds heavier, and he's trapped 118. Whatever the HP advantage is....it's BIG. It's not like a 10-15 HP difference.

So, your 60 HP estimate is doable. If I have to go speed density, no problem.

I'm estimating a 185 lb. advantage over my last outings.

So for comparisons' sake let's say:

*50 AWHP

*2275 total weight

---and we all know, or we should, that there are mods that don't really show much on a dyno plot, but that translate into speed in the real world.



1.3s are less than a year away..........

Over the years I've always had people ask me, "where is all this speed coming from?" Most of it came from doing what alot of others wouldn't. Most of it was free.....guys out spending money on 16g's and 20g's.....and I just kept removing weight. It was seldom that I'd lose to any of those cars.

 

[Mr4G]

Looks like my record attempt took a shot in the arm. My 2.4 spun a rod bearing while tuning. Dsmlink says I made 460hp 481lb ft of torque with very little timing and at 88% injector duty cycle. Out with the stroker in with a non turbo bottem just to make the race. :/

 

[pneumo]

Looks like my record attempt took a shot in the arm. My 2.4 spun a rod bearing while tuning. Dsmlink says I made 460hp 481lb ft of torque with very little timing and at 88% injector duty cycle. Out with the stroker in with a non turbo bottem just to make the race. :/

Sorry to hear that. I hope things work out for you.
A little OT, but this is the reason we get excited over the 'stock block' records. You're not the only one who has had trouble with the race block just before a race. It's nice to be able to pull a junkyard engine and install it with no mods and still run some good times. GL.

 

[Mr4G]

I had a junkyard motor in the car, my 2.4 was actually sitting in my garage for almost 2 years and when I blew my other motor I said screw it, I'm throwing it in.

 

[pneumo]

I had a junkyard motor in the car, my 2.4 was actually sitting in my garage for almost 2 years and when I blew my other motor I said screw it, I'm throwing it in.

Oh, nevermind!
Maybe this 'stock block' stuff isn't so hot after all?
It's definitely risky. So did you have stock 2.4 pistons in it too?

 

[Nate Crisman]

I'd like to know how your getting 460hp worth of airflow from a 14b!

 

[91stocker]

I'd like to know how your getting 460hp worth of airflow from a 14b!

I was wondering the same thing. Even if it was a typo and he meant 360/381, those numbers are still rather suspect.

 

[Phil1320]

I'd like to know how your getting 460hp worth of airflow from a 14b!

Ok...so I'm not the only one.....

I was wondering the same thing. Even if it was a typo and he meant 360/381, those numbers are still rather suspect.

Yeah..the HP can't be right...torque of 381 would be believable though.....

My best ever uncorrected dyno was 304 HP 348 TQ which corrected that night to 295 HP and 337 TQ

 

[Nate Crisman]

I'm half expecting some kind of snarky "curt brown tuned it" response. Hahahah

 

[rhamlinii]

I'm sure you're right about the slick spinning...however, check my dsmtuners calendar cover....there's barely any "wrinkle" at all....that was at 15 psi cutting 1.50's.

I still have launch rpm that I can adjust.....however I'm at 6000 now. Not sure the 14b will build too much more than 12 psi, but I thought I heard someone say they were getting 15 or so.

My prediction for overall race weight is 2275....so we can work with that.


My HP number was 295 on an AWD dynojet.

Pneumo made 324 on an AWD Mustang(I hate saying that word)dyno

According to what just about everyone says, Dynojets read high, Mustangs read low(that makes sense haha) or conservative.

Number for number hes making 29 more AWHP......so, Dynojet to Mustang translation??? Guesses? My guess is he makes 50 AWHP more than me at the minimum...his race weight is 450 or so pounds heavier, and he's trapped 118. Whatever the HP advantage is....it's BIG. It's not like a 10-15 HP difference.

So, your 60 HP estimate is doable. If I have to go speed density, no problem.

I'm estimating a 185 lb. advantage over my last outings.

So for comparisons' sake let's say:

*50 AWHP

*2275 total weight

---and we all know, or we should, that there are mods that don't really show much on a dyno plot, but that translate into speed in the real world.



1.3s are less than a year away..........

Over the years I've always had people ask me, "where is all this speed coming from?" Most of it came from doing what alot of others wouldn't. Most of it was free.....guys out spending money on 16g's and 20g's.....and I just kept removing weight. It was seldom that I'd lose to any of those cars.

What is the current point you're at with what you have taken out of your car?

 

[Phil1320]

I'm half expecting some kind of snarky "curt brown tuned it" response. Hahahah

What is the current point you're at with what you have taken out of your car?

2460 lbs. race weight
2255 lbs. car by itself

 

[Mr4G]

The dsmlink numbers may be inaccurate cause some of the input is incorrect. I never changed the size of the engine, and I forgot to change the weight when I went back and looked. My car is gutted a lot and it had 3,300lbs as the weight. Car previously was tuned at no limit motorsprts in long island on a 2.0 and made 325 on a dynojet dyno. So when I put my 2.4 in it I never changed the information. Ooops

 

[Phil1320]

The dsmlink numbers may be inaccurate cause some of the input is incorrect. I never changed the size of the engine, and I forgot to change the weight when I went back and looked. My car is gutted a lot and it had 3,300lbs as the weight. Car previously was tuned at no limit motorsprts in long island on a 2.0 and made 325 on a dynojet dyno. So when I put my 2.4 in it I never changed the information. Ooops

Well, that explains it then.

So, you're previous number of 325 was to all four wheels? If so you're only the second person to see the other side of 300 AWHP that I know of.

 

[rhamlinii]

2460 lbs. race weight
2255 lbs. car by itself

What is the current parts list of things removed?

 

[Phil1320]

What is the crrent parts list of things removed?

Wow, you want me to work this early in the morning?

1. ALL sound deadening anywhere in the car
2. headliner & sun visors
3. carpet
4. center console
5. passive restraint seatbelt system
6. passenger seat
7. back seats
8. rear deck lid
9. glove box
10. all interior plastic trim
11. door panels
12. hatch shocks
13. heater core
14. evap core
15. audio system - speakers and all wiring
16. drivers side under dash trim
17. all vents and ductwork
18. heater control switches
19. original steering wheel, combination switch, & shift knob
20. factory gutted doors - no handles - no crash beams - maintains factory glass
21. rear window cleaner reservoir

22. front and rear steel bumpers
23. hood - fiberglass
24. hatch - fiberglass with lexan window
25. rear spoiler center section and 3rd brake light
26. headlights - motors and lids
27. fog lights
28. horns
29. all wiring related to the above 3 items
30. windshield/rear hatch wiper assemblies - motors and all wiring
31. sideview mirrors
32. radio antenna assembly
33. A/C compressor, lines, bracket, fan, all related wiring, etc
34. Power Steering pump, res, feed & return, bracket on block
35. factory crank pulley
36. bracket at throttle body and exhaust mani for pulling engine
37. cruise control box, cable, all related wiring
38. all emissions, charcoal canister and bracket, EGR valve and lines
39. intake manifold support bracket
40. battery & bracket > odyssey 680
41. factory aircan, filter, and intake tube
42. full cat- back exhaust and all hangers > 6" dump off O2
43. factory O2 housing & internal gate > S/S with Tial
44. the usual piece of the drivers side(front) engine mount cut away
45. heat shields in the driveshaft tunnel
46. dust shields on back of brake rotors
47. factory wheels
48. factory rubber brake & clutch lines
49. front sway bar
50. valve stem caps.....

This should about cover it as I ran the last 4 outings.

As I said above....there's definitely quite a bit more to come out, actually it is out as we speak, such as:

1. oil cooler and lines
2. water pipe with coolant provision
3. front lower subframe connectors and front crossmember
4. half the dashboard
5. factory gas tank
6. 40% of the factory wiring harness
7. misc. unused sensors
8. rear 1/4 windows
9. misc. sheetmetal


.....and more

 

[Mr4G]

Yes phil, 325 was to all 4 wheels, and Nate why do you always gotta speak like your sh*t don't stink. It seems to me you just have something rotten or wise to say about my post.

 

[Steve93Talon]

So, you're previous number of 325 was to all four wheels? If so you're only the second person to see the other side of 300 AWHP that I know of.

I made 321whp on stock cams on a dynojet, Pneumo did 324 on a Mustang, and sleepyvr4 did 321 on a dynapack.

DSM Dyno Challenge - 14b

There's also a guy on a local forum who claims 319whp from years ago, don't know him personally but I'm sure there are a few out there over 300 that aren't involved in this thread.

Bucci also realistically was making WELL over 300whp, though according to him he never broke 300whp on a dyno.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/152448818-post1426.html

 

[Phil1320]

I made 321whp on stock cams on a dynojet, Pneumo did 324 on a Mustang, and sleepyvr4 did 321 on a dynapack.

DSM Dyno Challenge - 14b

There's also a guy on a local forum who claims 319whp from years ago, don't know him personally but I'm sure there are a few out there over 300 that aren't involved in this thread.

Bucci also realistically was making WELL over 300whp, though according to him he never broke 300whp on a dyno.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/152448818-post1426.html

Steve, you're FWD though right? So about 310 AWHP or so.....

I'm glad there's more than a few then......so it shouldn't be that hard to bump my power up into the 300 range.

As far as the dynapack number.....I made 302 AWHP on the packs about 8 years ago....never did more than 295 on the jets after that....so the pack #s are a bit off I'd say....

I'll most likely be tuning on a jet....but I do have access to a Mustang set up as well. We'll see how they compare out.

Yes phil, 325 was to all 4 wheels, and Nate why do you always gotta speak like your sh*t don't stink. It seems to me you just have something rotten or wise to say about my post.

ok cool......I don't think Nate meant anything personal by it all....but you should understand tossing up a number like 460 is a number evo 3 16's don't make....that's all.

I think Bucci was more like 340 FWHP. 2100 lbs. 123 MPH.....