T-chargers EVO 3 GT

[ShapeGSX]

Apparently this is what happens to turbos from China.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1097918

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[david buschur]

First off, someone on the first page said everyone but Buschur Racing is a cornerstone in the DSM market. That cracks me up. How long have you been around a week?

Now for the turbo facts. I say facts because I was pointed to this topic so I could clear things up about these. I then got on the phone and varified the facts with Turbochargers.com on these turbos. ANYONE that wants to varify what I am typing here can call them themselves and talk with Tommy.

We ARE selling the EVO3 GT turbo here. It is cheaper than the old EVO3 turbo when you consider the fact that it is ported and has the bigger 35 mm swing valve in it. For anyone to say the other standard EVO3 turbo is cheaper is wrong when comparing the options you get with the EVO3 GT turbo.

We did take the old style EVO3 turbo down off our site, not sure why and Jarrod doesn't know why he took it down either. It is going back up, it was a mistake to take it down.

This new EVO3 GT turbo is a beautiful piece of work. Saves us time in building them and the quality is better than any other large swing valve turbo I have seen built by a normal shop.

The warranty on the turbo is 12 months/12,000 miles. They (Turbocharges) also said that because of the "fear" that is being spread that they will cover them for just about anything to start. So far they have sold a few hundred and haven't had a single unit come back. We have sold about 25 of these so far and have the same feed back, kick ass turbo and no problems.

Also, MHI from Japan has moved their turbo building operations to, guess where? China. These turbos that are in question are built in the same factory as the MHI turbos are, in China. At this point in time it doesn't matter which turbo you get, the old MHI EVO3 or the new GT, they are built in the same place.

Last, one of the people that are down the most on this turbo is SBR. I asked Tommy about this and why it seems that are slamming them.
**** admin edited ****
Tommy said that if a few of you want to call there and varify this you are welcome to. Please don't everyone call as I am sure they have better things to do that mess with this.

I feel confident and apparently RRE also feels confident enough in this part to sell it, and they are selling good. I think that should be enough for any of you to buy them.

Thanks and I hope this clears things up.

David Buschur
buschur racing

 

[mavisky]

Dave, thanks alot for clearing this issue up. Up until now we'd only been able to hear one side of the story and that's never enough to make a decision on. I think it's safe to say that most people still consider you one of the top authorities in 4g63 tuning so w/o the OK from guys like you, Mike from RRE, Jeff from Turbotrix, or any of the other major tuners most people are hesitant about purchasing a brand new "Chinese" turbo. Once again thanks for providing the other side of the argument, the simple fact that shops such as Buschur Racing and RRE had offered this turbo meant something must be pretty good with it.

 

[david buschur]

NO problem. Glad I could straighten things out. I am sure it is going to cause some problems but DON'T attack me, SBR or supporters of SBR, you can call Turbochargers.com and get the information yourself. I am only passing it along. Think about it and then it makes perfect sense as why someone would bash a great product.

Thanks again,

 

[GPTourer]

Finally a voice from the other side. If all MHI turbos are made in China now, then they must be subletting this factory, because the turbo doesn't follow their naming scheme. It may be put together by Chinese hands instead of Japanese hands, but the only question in my mind is the quality of the components. Lots of factories produce lots of things for different companies from high dollar lines down to budget lines, but its the engineering behind the components that has a big hand in the end result.

Thank you for clarifying things.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

Apparently this is what happens to turbos from China.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1097918

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I posted that a long time ago, that turbo is actually made in Brazil last time i checked. Sucks either way.

 

[miragetbo1997cc]

It just goes to show.People that try to beat a tree with a stick usually has a personal problem with the tree.Especially if aloooot of people are climbing the tree.I knew stick holder sounded alittle biased against the testing of the TC.com Evo style turbo.Sounds like Ownage to me.

 

[Stapl3]

Just because they're made in the same country or even factory doesn't mean the quality control is the same.

Only time will tell.

 

[Clipser15]

This is a free country, I can voice my opinion however I want.

 

[Wanted:SWGSXAWD]

I'll go back and change it, but first I'd like to appologize To Mr. Buschur for the typo or misunderstanding.

That's what's really confusing me. These guys, besides Buschur, are the cornerstones of the DSM market for parts and service. I just can't imagine them selling something they wouldn't put on a magazine car, let alone their own. I'm thinking about asking a few more questions about the turbo, but I'm pretty sure I'll just go with something that's been around a little longer and more proven unless they've already done some pretty intensive testing already(still confused )

I meant that the folks at RRE and Buschur racing are the corner stones in the DSM market for parts and service, any time I've had questions or problems on something ya'll have not even hesitated to take time out of your day to help answer them, thank you. thanks also for the additional info on this subject.

 

[1990greenGSX]

Also, MHI from Japan has moved their turbo building operations to, guess where? China. These turbos that are in question are built in the same factory as the MHI turbos are, in China. At this point in time it doesn't matter which turbo you get, the old MHI EVO3 or the new GT, they are built in the same place.

both Turbos may be made in Asia, But not at the same location.If they were, think about this now, anyone could buy these from MHI then.. And you cant.

Last, one of the people that are down the most on this turbo is SBR. I asked Tommy about this and why it seems that are slamming them. His words were not appropiate to type actually but he did say I could clean up what he said and print it here. I guess if SBR would pay their bills at Turbochargers.com then they could buy them and re-sell them too. They have tried to get them but Turbochargers.com will not sell them to SBR because they do not pay their bills. Tommy offered me invoice numbers but I didn't figure that really mattered. Tommy said that if a few of you want to call there and varify this you are welcome to. Please don't everyone call as I am sure they have better things to do that mess with this.

as for this.. TC has screwed alot of people,but to keep this from being a vendor bashing between vendors. All i will say is if i buy 100 evo 3 16gs at a time Direct from MHI and i pay around $50k, why wouldnt I pay TC.com?. anyways i can get these elsewhere (the source of them) no need to use TC like everyone else, and yes thats at 218.00 a turbo as we posted before. If everyone wanst to buy it thats fine. We may offer it then if there is such a demand for it. Our original gripe is that it was being marketed as a MHI turbo which it is not, thats all. So to explain to people that they are different turbos, in a sense you have to bash the gt turbo to show the inferior qualities it has to teh tru MHI EVO III.

we will have a comparison posted with pictures later today of the two turbos. and yes we have them without the help of TC.com.



Thanks
Mark
SBR

 

[LandoAWD]

Blow me Speed###tory

And would the shit stain whos editing my posts grow a pair and at least show his face?

This is a free country, I can voice my opinion however I want.

DERH!!!!!!! SBR DERH!!!!!!!!!!

It should show you who edited the post, Dora the Explorer.

Your "free county" argument is moot on a private board, so save the flag toting for somewhere useful.

Post in similar fashion, and we'll give you the vacation McDonalds won't.

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

This is a free country, I can voice my opinion however I want.

This is a privatley owned board, you cannot voice your opinioin however you want, and since you can't follow the rules, you don't have to worry about voicing it anymore.

 

[LandoAWD]

Huzzah for instant results. Back to the topic.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Regardless of who makes it, the machined step in the exhaust housing is a GOOD thing to have so that you can match it up with the factory ring that seals in exhaust much better than any gasket alone. And this new turbo has done away with it.

As well, there is no telling what the new turbo's housing is made of. The Evo III 16G exhaust housing has a higher nickel content than the older 7cm exhaust housing so they can get away with a thinner casting. If the new turbo doesn't use the same metal, who knows if it will resist cracking as well as the genuine version.

And then, on top of all of this, they did the boneheaded deed of casting it with a larger wastegate flapper and wastegate hole than stock. That is a perfect way to guarantee that you will never be able to hold as much boost as you should be. Larger wastegate flappers make boost fall in the upper RPMs.

I haven't ever seen someone quantify the results of porting an exhaust housing on a turbocharger. All the exhaust still has to go through the same 7cm^2 opening, regardless of how large the bell leading up to it is. I don't think having a larger casting, or "pre-ported" buys you anything.

 

[david buschur]

Thanks for the apology about your post, and the phone call, wasn't needed though, it's all good.

As for the porting of the lip in the housing. Most guys do not have the correct size ring for the 7cm housing anyway, as a matter of fact I don't know anyone that does. So that lip in the 7cm housing is useless and should be ported out, as this GT turbo does. There is a performance gain in porting the housings as we proved years and years ago when porting the manifolds, turbine and 02 housings in testing. We are proving it again now with the EVO8 turbos.

What I am being told is these EVO3GT's are being built in the same assembly plant as they are building the MHI turbo's, not the same country. I would assumbe the quality is going to be as good because of this. As I say, we have sold quite a few and have had no problems thus far.

As for a big valve turbo not holding as much boost, this is quite possible and I have seen it too. The problem gets to be the back pressure against the larger surface area of the larger valve. More PSI per square inch will push the valve off it's seat. It can be solved with a higher spring rate in the actuator or an adjustable actuator rod. You can't have the best of both worlds most of the time. IF you don't want boost creep, which is why the larger valve is in there, then run the larger valve. If it is high boost you are after you don't need the larger valve anyway. Want it all? Put an external wastegate on it

 

[david buschur]

Once again, not trying to get into a fight here.

I called Turbchargers.com again.

*** admin edited ***

I also checked on the availability of these EVO3GT's. Turbochargers.com has a contract with the company direct in China. They (Turbochargers) had this company in China, that builds the MHI turbos too, build this turbo custom for them. This let them go around buying them direct from MHI for more money. The slight changes to it made it not a direct copy of the MHI turbo. These turbos are NOT available from ANY other company ANYWHERE as they are only sold directly to Turbochargers.com and are under contract to do so. Not sure where SBR is going to get these same EVO3GT's but from what I am being told directly by Turbochargers they are not available from anywhere but them.

*** admin edited ***

Just passing along what I am finding out, no need to hate the player, hate the game.

I also could care less. My side of this is I believe it is a great turbo for less money. I wish I could buy them for the $218 SBR says they can get them for. Hell I'd take them in quanity from SBR for $300 each so I could resell them. My side is that I don't want to see someone bashing it just because they can't get it and it is cutting in on their biggest seller which would be the MHI ported and big flappered 16g.

Good day.

 

[1990greenGSX]

As for a big valve turbo not holding as much boost, this is quite possible and I have seen it too. The problem gets to be the back pressure against the larger surface area of the larger valve. More PSI per square inch will push the valve off it's seat. It can be solved with a higher spring rate in the actuator or an adjustable actuator rod. You can't have the best of both worlds most of the time. IF you don't want boost creep, which is why the larger valve is in there, then run the larger valve. If it is high boost you are after you don't need the larger valve anyway. Want it all? Put an external wastegate on it

Exactly. So many people do not understand that..

Mark
SBR

 

[david buschur]

Thank you Mark. Nice to see I can do something right!

I hope you understand that I am not here trying to slam you guys. I am trying to defend this product as I believe it is good.

Glad we aren't going at it.

 

[1990greenGSX]

Once again, not trying to get into a fight here.

I called Turbchargers.com again.

*** admin edited ***

I also checked on the availability of these EVO3GT's. Turbochargers.com has a contract with the company direct in China. They (Turbochargers) had this company in China, that builds the MHI turbos too, build this turbo custom for them. This let them go around buying them direct from MHI for more money. The slight changes to it made it not a direct copy of the MHI turbo. These turbos are NOT available from ANY other company ANYWHERE as they are only sold directly to Turbochargers.com and are under contract to do so. Not sure where SBR is going to get these same EVO3GT's but from what I am being told directly by Turbochargers they are not available from anywhere but them.

*** admin edited ***

Just passing along what I am finding out, no need to hate the player, hate the game.

I also could care less. My side of this is I believe it is a great turbo for less money. I wish I could buy them for the $218 SBR says they can get them for. Hell I'd take them in quanity from SBR for $300 each so I could resell them. My side is that I don't want to see someone bashing it just because they can't get it and it is cutting in on their biggest seller which would be the MHI ported and big flappered 16g.

Good day.

Ok, i was being polite and keeping this nice, I even actually posted along with one of your posts to say that i did agree with you. My response to your first post were directed towards TC and not you. Yet again you intice. So here it goes. You are posting wht you so call facts from Turbochargers.com. Are they good? are they the help desk on the IBM computer commercials now that can answer all questions?

*** admin edited ***

(oh, and if you want to really know what kind of guys are at Turbo.com, do a search for David Rafes on the net so you can see what kind of guy he is and not to trust everything you hear.)

Take care

Mark
SBR

 

[cuttheduck]

Looks to me like MHI turbos are still built in Japan. There increasing there capacity there,

NOT shifting anywhere in china.
I had a local friend buy one from T-chargers.com. I thought it was a 16g and never really paid attention. This thread comes up, his turbo takes a sh1t, and guess what kind of turbo it is? They did not honor the warranty w/ no explanation on why, so the turbo w/ 200 miles on it is now worthless. If they told you none have failed they are flat out lying as this is NOT the only one. No part of this transaction dealt w/ buschur so don't take that as a negative on his shop, but T-chargers.com is not doing what they say they are.

Tokyo, September 29, 2004 - Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. (MHI) is to boost its production capacity in small-size turbochargers by approximately 30%, to 3.2 million units p.a. (per annum), by May 2005, up from the current 2.45 million. The move is aimed at responding to increasing demand from automakers, especially in Europe, for small turbochargers that can provide the higher combustion efficiency demanded by today's tightened emission control standards. The increase in production capacity is to be carried out at an investment of roughly 3 billion yen.



The investment will be directed into a production line dedicated to small-size turbochargers for automobiles. Demand for turbochargers of this class is increasing in the European and Asian markets in tandem with strengthening of environmental regulations. In line with this trend, MHI's small turbocharger sales soared from 1.6 million units in fiscal year (FY) 2003 to a projected 2.3 million this fiscal year, with forecasts anticipating further increases to 3 million in FY2006.

MHI's investment will focus on the company's Sagamihara plant in Kanagawa prefecture, but independently production capacity increases will also be carried out at two other locations: MHI Equipment Europe B.V. (MEE), a wholly owned production subsidiary in the Netherlands that also engages in local marketing; and at KYPC, an assembly affiliate in Korea.

mitsu link

 

[1990greenGSX]

Thank you Mark. Nice to see I can do something right!

I hope you understand that I am not here trying to slam you guys. I am trying to defend this product as I believe it is good.

Glad we aren't going at it.

well that went to crap in a hurry. If you werent really trying to trash us, then some of that last post was out of line, and i think you know that. I do respect you for what you have accomplished and help the dsm world. But this isnt even your fight? why are you getting into it? I can be a supplier of them as well just like you. I am just saying they are not an EVO replacement, they are very different materials making these turbos, thats all. You just made this thread personal.

Mark

 

[ShapeGSX]

As for the porting of the lip in the housing. Most guys do not have the correct size ring for the 7cm housing anyway, as a matter of fact I don't know anyone that does. So that lip in the 7cm housing is useless and should be ported out, as this GT turbo does.

RRE sells them. I have one in my car right now. It keeps the pressure going through the turbine instead of through a hole in your gasket. You just need an unported 16G, an unported Evo III exhaust manifold, and the ring. Oh, and the stock 7cm housing gasket out of a 6-bolt head gasket kit.

The exhaust housing opening and the ring don't match perfectly, so a tiny bit of porting is good to smooth the transition. Same for between the ring and the exhaust manifold. But then you are guaranteed a very smooth transition from the manifold, through the ring, and into the exhaust housing.

 

[Wanted:SWGSXAWD]

I started this thread to get the word out (good or bad) about this turbo not start round 2 of bash this person/vendor and what not. Dave Buschur laid out the info he felt was important to the subject. "1990greenGSX" not sure if you can tell, but you come off rather strongly and heated about this topic, if you have a personal beef with the guys at TC.com that's fine, but as far as how bad the internal bells and whistles are of this turbo you've looked at, please let us know what you've found, that's why this was started, but lets not get another thread locked prematurely .

 

[1990greenGSX]

I started this thread to get the word out (good or bad) about this turbo not start round 2 of bash this person/vendor and what not. Dave Buschur laid out the info he felt was important to the subject. "1990greenGSX" not sure if you can tell, but you come off rather strongly and heated about this topic, if you have a personal beef with the guys at TC.com that's fine, but as far as how bad the internal bells and whistles are of this turbo you've looked at, please let us know what you've found, that's why this was started, but lets not get another thread locked prematurely .

thats all i was on here for. Not sure why we were brought into this thread the way we were either. I WAS NOT the first to bring up TC.com either. I was just stating my defense. As for the results. There will be a link put up later today that has the comparision results.

And someone please tell me how wether SBR can get these GT turbos direct or not has anything to do with the performance of this turbo?? Since it was considered to be USEFUL info...


Thanks
Mark
SBR