Real proof cheap FMICs are better than stock SMIC?

[gusu]

I'm going to give this a fair fight so for the sake of argument about piping effecting spool/efficiency I'm going to through out the stock piping aspect and replace it with hard piping.

I was wondering if any shops or someone with money to throw around just for shits and giggles has every tested a stock SMIC (not upgraded to a Supra intercooler or whatever), to see what HP gains have been gotten by a budget FMIC such as Punishment racing, CX Racing, and VRSF kits.

My goal isn't to bash these kits but simply to see what gains these kits provide and who they'd most benefit.

I'm most curious about dyno graphs between the kits to see how spool is effected, how much more power is made, and where exactly do they make the most power in your power band.

I'm also curious to see if these kits help SINGLE runs where heat soak isn't as much of a issue. But I'd also like to see how effective the cores actually are to resist heat soak.

I'm also saying CHEAP kits so lets set a 450 dollar limit. This would exclude the ETS kit so I really don't want to hear about it.

I do believe this post can become a great collection of solid data that can be backed up by dyno graphs, of course time slips don't mean very much on small scale but over a larger scale they can show a tiny bit of truth as drivers aren't consistent 100% of the time, but if the data shows roughly the same improvement over times we could assume that it could possibly be showing a time improvement. However we should remember this would be a educated guess and shouldn't be taken as hard proof.

I'll try to eventually get some data of my own.

 

[MaNGiNa24]

Not exactly what you're asking for but here's a dyno of our 2g fmic kit vs another well known FMIC kit.

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Pretty substantial gain with just a FMIC swap. I'm working on getting a 2g dyno'd with stock vs the VRSF kit but since we don't have anyone in the area it's a bit tough.

 

[phunny]

Design is crucial on an FMIC, a difference in 20% isn't unheard of. If you post a pic of what you want I can give you further info.

 

[4Lurker4]

You'll have to be more specific I think, since you can still have stock smic vented (with the modified hole in the wheel well and shrouds made for both for better flow/cooling) i.e. are both to be installed as bolt-on and that's it?

 

[gusu]

You'll have to be more specific I think, since you can still have stock smic vented (with the modified hole in the wheel well and shrouds made for both for better flow/cooling) i.e. are both to be installed as bolt-on and that's it?

For the most part yes, but if you want to add data for how much that effected it, I really don't see how that could hurt anything

That would be awesome if you can get that information MaNGiNa24. That's pretty much exactly what I am looking for. I'd like to see real information on the subject so that in the future people have a real idea of what their gains from each kit could be.

I'm personally not against the idea of multiple set ups for different styles of racing for a single car. Though yeah it's a lot of work I personally enjoy doing the work just as much as the racing. If we can show any real proof in benefits of each kit in some way to show owning all three could help someone like me be cheap while getting the performance from the part I desire that would be awesome.

Maybe others aren't as curious to see what this turns up, but I for one and pretty curious. Who knows maybe we will find a way to make better cheap intercoolers. Maybe we will find out the stock side mount isn't that much of a upgrade for some people.

Just try to be as specific as possible if you do post data because FWD vs AWD and mods make a very obvious difference in results.

 

[phunny]

not to toot my own horn but an intercooler genius . Genius may be a stretch but I do know a lot and would be more than happy to share but I'll leave you with this, you can actually hurt performance by going from stock to a cheap fmic.

 

[skatershawn]

I would think if you can get a good sized SMIC that flows good and cools just as good as a FMIC it would be better due to the shorter route of it!

I would figure, using a supra SMIC with upgraded end tanks and ducting to help air flow through better, would be a pretty damn good upgrade because you wouldn't sacrifice spool time and the cooling on it would be near the same! The only con of the supra SMIC is the placement of it is a bit challenging!

But ill stop with my Opinion because i know you're looking for proof on this matter.

 

[agarc023]

I would think if you can get a good sized SMIC that flows good and cools just as good as a FMIC it would be better due to the shorter route of it!

I would figure, using a supra SMIC with upgraded end tanks and ducting to help air flow through better, would be a pretty damn good upgrade because you wouldn't sacrifice spool time and the cooling on it would be near the same! The only con of the supra SMIC is the placement of it is a bit challenging!

But ill stop with my Opinion because i know you're looking for proof on this matter.

Makes me wonder if anyone has tried to mount a supra smic out in front. Would look goofy, but would shorten up the pipes a bit

 

[phunny]

I would think if you can get a good sized SMIC that flows good and cools just as good as a FMIC it would be better due to the shorter route of it!

I would figure, using a supra SMIC with upgraded end tanks and ducting to help air flow through better, would be a pretty damn good upgrade because you wouldn't sacrifice spool time and the cooling on it would be near the same! The only con of the supra SMIC is the placement of it is a bit challenging!

But ill stop with my Opinion because i know you're looking for proof on this matter.

Pipe length isn't that important at all, the bends are more crucial. As in, every 90 turn you lose 1%.

 

[jlr2196]

I like what your trying to learn here, I'll give you some data that I have and although I'm throwing a twist into the equation I think it's info that should relate.
I ran a completely stock smic with my 6 bolt, 1G head, 8.5:1, 272/272 engine equipped with an E3-16g @ 18-20psi utilizing speed density. Ran a 1/4 mile time of 13.2 @ 101.8 mph and would hit just over 200*F intake air temps (causing me to lower my afr's to 10.5:1 on the top end). This obviously was causing me major top end power making problems so I made a decision to go with the FrozenBoost water to air intercooler system. Why water/air? I really wanted to keep the car looking stock with no big fmic to advertise I had some mods & wanted to maintain my ac as well as just doing something different. I learned that they have nearly zero pressure drop across the core and by using a dedicated heat exchanger/radiator with electric fan they work very well for daily, street driven vehicles.

I finished this install about 5 weeks ago and let me tell you, I'm very pleased, this was one of the most noticeable changes in power I have done. Again this is a direct comparison to the stock smic, I dropped my turbo spool from 3200 rpm to 2800 rpm @ 18-20psi of boost. Throttle response is greatly increased, I contribute this to the near zero pressure drop of this system. I have only 22" of total pipe length from the outlet of the turbo to the inlet of the throttle body.

I went to the track at close to the same conditions hovering around 70*F, tune was nearly identical as before (11.9 afr with 15* total timing from 5.5K-7K rpm), set the tire pressure to 35 psi and launched at the same 4.5K rpm as before and simply spun all four tires coming off the line. I lowered the tire pressure to 28 psi and launched the car at 4.3K rpm and nearly the same tune @ 20 psi of boost. Still couldn't get the car to hook then fought to get the car into 2nd gear (broken 1-2 fork but just had to run the car anyway) but managed to go 13.1 @ 111.2 mph!!! Intake air temps hit 122*F so this was a major improvement vs the stock sidemount so my afr's could stay at 11.9:1 rather than drop to 10.5:1 on the top end. Heatsoak is virtually gone as the iat's recover to ambient very quickly (15 seconds or so) where as the stock ic seemed to never come back down to ambient, always hovered 15*F above ambient at best.

Sorry it's not a direct comparison of a stock smic vs fmic but again I think results would be similar other than maybe throttle response/turbo spool.

Here's a pic of the setup:

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[skatershawn]

But that water to air isn't meant for daily driving, correct?

I too would like to stick to a stock appearance, although i do like the look of an aggressive fmic, but thats why i made a comment on the supra SMIC, i cant seem to find any companies that make upgraded SMIC for our cars anymore! Nor find any graphs of their improvement over stock!

 

[phunny]

Stay with a 2" core and if you can get top and tanks that ease at the edge, and a baffle in the middle of the endtanks separating the air in half.

 

[juvi1624]

I havent read all the posts, but from my own personal experiance bigger is always better. On saturday we were dyno tuning a car that lost some power since the last time we dyno'd it, and we obviously expected more since we had done a lot more work since then. One thing that changed was the FMIC, which we swapped out a cheap ebay one for a smaller but very expensive name brand one. To try and find the lost power we changed back to the bigger ebay one and immediately picked up 20 WHP. So from my experience a big ebay intercooler should make you more power than a stock SMIC based on size alone.

 

[phunny]

I havent read all the posts, but from my own personal experiance bigger is always better. On saturday we were dyno tuning a car that lost some power since the last time we dyno'd it, and we obviously expected more since we had done a lot more work since then. One thing that changed was the FMIC, which we swapped out a cheap ebay one for a smaller but very expensive name brand one. To try and find the lost power we changed back to the bigger ebay one and immediately picked up 20 WHP. So from my experience a big ebay intercooler should make you more power than a stock SMIC based on size alone.

Completely wrong, bigger is not always better at all.

 

[Burnett03]

But that water to air isn't meant for daily driving, correct?

I too would like to stick to a stock appearance, although i do like the look of an aggressive fmic, but thats why i made a comment on the supra SMIC, i cant seem to find any companies that make upgraded SMIC for our cars anymore! Nor find any graphs of their improvement over stock!

Air to water is fine for daily driving. The system uses a heat exchanger to cool the water. Or you can add icewater at the track.

 

[juvi1624]

Completely wrong, bigger is not always better at all.

I'm curious and I don't mean to sound like a dick but have you found a smaller intercooler making more power than a bigger one(air-to-air obviously no water-to-air)? Cause it's always been my experience, granted we are talking about bigger turbo cars here, that bigger intercoolers have always made more power. I've done three side by side comparisons and every time the biggest intercooler always came out on top. I'm not saying there isn't somewhere a smaller I/C that just flows like a freak, or that you should go get a race core for your stock T25, but I just haven't found it yet.

 

[phunny]

But that water to air isn't meant for daily driving, correct?

I too would like to stick to a stock appearance, although i do like the look of an aggressive fmic, but thats why i made a comment on the supra SMIC, i cant seem to find any companies that make upgraded SMIC for our cars anymore! Nor find any graphs of their improvement over stock!

A/W IC is has better thermal efficiency at low speeds and better throttle response if you vehicle still uses a MAF, lower pressure loss, less compressor surge and if you're short on space.

I'm curious and I don't mean to sound like a dick but have you found a smaller intercooler making more power than a bigger one(air-to-air obviously no water-to-air)? Cause it's always been my experience, granted we are talking about bigger turbo cars here, that bigger intercoolers have always made more power. I've done three side by side comparisons and every time the biggest intercooler always came out on top. I'm not saying there isn't somewhere a smaller I/C that just flows like a freak, or that you should go get a race core for your stock T25, but I just haven't found it yet.

No problem , we're here to help/share information . There are so many variables I could write a book on this but I'll try to keep it short and easy for everyone to understand.

So I'll start by saying that the most important part of an intercooler is design, hands down this will make or break and intercooler. The reason you see so many use a 3" core is due to the face that these cheap FMIC's don't put any though into design, so to get the same cooling you need a thicker core.

The back half of a 3" core only does 1/4 the work and yet the drag coefficient goes up by a decent amount. Here are a couple things you should look at when purchasing a FMIC

Round edged extruded type core will permit more cooling airflow and less drag.

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Good baffling will allow for a more uniform distribution of airflow and force half through the for and second half of the IC.

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And increasing the FMIC size really doesn't change much. consider this, if you have an FMIC rated at 70% and increase it's size by 10% most would assume that it would be a lot more efficient. Now in actuality a 10% increase in size only increases efficiency of the 30% inefficient part of the FMIC. So FMIC efficiency would change from 70% to 73%.

As far as plumbing goes, longer plumbing only affects vehicles still using MAF and you would need to run a considerable amount of plumbing to affect performance, and the bends are what kill you. Every 90* bend you have you have a loss of 1% of cfm, so 3 30* bends you lose 1%. Now if you use speed density then you can run 100miles of IC piping and hurt nothing.

I typed this fast so if I missed something or lost anyone just let me know.

 

[DSMunknown]

I absolutely <3 end tank baffles, but never see anyone offer them.


Tunerworks Products - AWE TUNING Audi B7 A4 2.0T Front Mount Intercooler System

 

[PieEyedPiper]

You surely did type it too fast.
Mostly just these: "The reason you seen that 3" cores keep the charge air cooler is because of design issues, a 3" core is because of the inefficient design.",

"Good baffling will allow for a more uniform distribution of airflow and force half through the for and second half of the IC."

 

[phunny]

I absolutely <3 end tank baffles, but never see anyone offer them.


Tunerworks Products - AWE TUNING Audi B7 A4 2.0T Front Mount Intercooler System

Haha yeah, not many good FMIC's out there IMHO, and if you can, get the top and bottom tanks instead of left to right.

You surely did type it too fast.
Mostly just these: "The reason you seen that 3" cores keep the charge air cooler is because of design issues, a 3" core is because of the inefficient design.",

"Good baffling will allow for a more uniform distribution of airflow and force half through the for and second half of the IC."

Fixed the top part. But the baffling is dead on...

 

[tenn-gsx]

Explain why you say top to bottom end tanks are better please.

 

[phunny]

Explain why you say top to bottom end tanks are better please.

Okay no problem.

The point of an intercooler is to get the most cooling possible. So with then top and bottom tanks you have much greater internal flow area due to the larger number of tubes, also lower pressure loss.

 

[phunny]

Here you can see the difference

 

[MaNGiNa24]

Okay no problem.

The point of an intercooler is to get the most cooling possible. So with then top and bottom tanks you have much greater internal flow area due to the larger number of tubes, also lower pressure loss.

This isn't much of a fact. Sure, there is less pressure loss and there are more cooling rows but the air also spends less time in said cooling rows which negatively impacts cooling. Routing is also a huge PITA in these cars with top-bottom cores.

Internal baffling is also subjective since air will take the path of least resistance anyway.

 

[phunny]

This isn't much of a fact. Sure, there is less pressure loss and there are more cooling rows but the air also spends less time in said cooling rows which negatively impacts cooling. Routing is also a huge PITA in these cars with top-bottom cores.

Internal baffling is also subjective since air will take the path of least resistance anyway.

Routing is more of a PIA on our cars but everything else are facts, period. The calculations on airflow through the intercooler and charge air are mathematical calculations that I can give you if you want them.

Also the baffling is not subjective either, also a fact. Turbulence has a large play in this. Rather not go into it but if you all want a detailed write-up I'm sure I can accommodate you over the next few days.

I understand you're a vender and I hope I'm not knocking your FMIC's just stating facts.