Real proof cheap FMICs are better than stock SMIC?

[tenn-gsx]

Phunny,

The only part of what your saying that I question is the cooling capacity. Yes there are more tubes but atleast in the comparison supplied the cooling tubes are way shorter on the top/bottom tank one than on my side tank fmic. I know from use of my fmic that if the cooling tubes were that short there wouldn't be much cooling going on. My fmic is still hot to the touch till a little over half way through the cooling tubes. Is the lower pressure drop going to make up for the higher temps that will be seen from shorter cooling tubes? If so could you explain how and why. Im asking honest questions here. Not trying to dispute you. Its just that what your saying does not add up with my persona though limitedl experience with fmoc setups.

 

[jlr2196]

A/W IC is has better thermal efficiency at low speeds and better throttle response if you vehicle still uses a MAF, lower pressure loss, less compressor surge and if you're short on space.

As far as plumbing goes, longer plumbing only affects vehicles still using MAF and you would need to run a considerable amount of plumbing to affect performance, and the bends are what kill you. Every 90* bend you have you have a loss of 1% of cfm, so 3 30* bends you lose 1%. Now if you use speed density then you can run 100miles of IC piping and hurt nothing.

I typed this fast so if I missed something or lost anyone just let me know.

What does running a MAF or Speed Density have anything to do with being able to run more plumbing? Pressure drop is pressure drop, as I stated earlier I ran speed density before I switched to the water/air ic & there was a massive improvement in spool-up/throttle response over the stock smic. There was just over a 10psi pressure drop difference between the two & a stock smic is considered to be relatively short plumbing. So I would have to say no matter what, shorter plumbing & efficient ic cores are key with any air metering system.

 

[phunny]

What does running a MAF or Speed Density have anything to do with being able to run more plumbing? Pressure drop is pressure drop, as I stated earlier I ran speed density before I switched to the water/air ic & there was a massive improvement in spool-up/throttle response over the stock smic. There was just over a 10psi pressure drop difference between the two & a stock smic is considered to be relatively short plumbing. So I would have to say no matter what, shorter plumbing & efficient ic cores are key with any air metering system.

If you're using a MAF then you can't really change it's position or when you open the throttle body. Here's why, when you open the throttle body you create a low pressure pulse that travels back to the MAF, by delaying this you delay throttle response.

About your "improved throttle response", so many factors go into that I'm not even going to start. As I stated before W/A IC I said there would be less pressure drop and better throttle response at low speeds. The length of the plumping doesn't change much at all.

Do you know the thermal efficiency of the W/A IC?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Haha yeah, not many good FMIC's out there IMHO, and if you can, get the top and bottom tanks instead of left to right.



Fixed the top part. But the baffling is dead on...

"the for and second half"? Sounds like a measurement of time or something. Surely, I'm not dead on.

 

[phunny]

"the for and second half"? Sounds like a measurement of time or something. Surely, I'm not dead on.

What are you talking about? I meant the 2nd have of your comments, about the baffles. IE my comment was dead on.

 

[jlr2196]

Do you know the thermal efficiency of the W/A IC?

Not completely sure what you are asking but it does keep intake temps within 2-3*F of ambient temp in stop go traffic or long idle. When I went to the dragstrip a few weeks ago I made three back to back runs and the last run I hit 130*F intake temp. Not sure as to what temps fmic users see since no one ever seems to have real data which I assume is because they still run maf's and don't log iat's where as with speed density you are able to log that info. I run a real heat exchanger up front that measures 24"X14"X1" with a dedicated 10" 1250cfm fan in the puller position along with 3/4" water lines for added cooling capacity with a 500gpm pump, the ic core measures 10"X4.5"X4.5". Obviously it works substantially better than the stock smic at keeping temps down & it's simply different than the typical belly-button fmics that everybody run.

 

[phunny]

Not completely sure what you are asking but it does keep intake temps within 2-3*F of ambient temp in stop go traffic or long idle. When I went to the dragstrip a few weeks ago I made three back to back runs and the last run I hit 130*F intake temp. Not sure as to what temps fmic users see since no one ever seems to have real data which I assume is because they still run maf's and don't log iat's where as with speed density you are able to log that info. I run a real heat exchanger up front that measures 24"X14"X1" with a dedicated 10" 1250cfm fan in the puller position along with 3/4" water lines for added cooling capacity with a 500gpm pump, the ic core measures 10"X4.5"X4.5". Obviously it works substantially better than the stock smic at keeping temps down & it's simply different than the typical belly-button fmics that everybody run.

It can be 14 - 1. If someone could find a way to make it practical to use a "true" W/A setup it would be out of this world. Some of the obstacles are rate of flow, amount of water in the system and removing the heat from the water.

I actually have some plans on paper to try and do just that, I should be testing it by next winter. Just have a few more pieces to be fabbed up.

 

[jazzyjay]

Water to Air Intercoolers at FROZENBOOST.COM

http://www.procharger.com/intercooled.shtml

 

[PieEyedPiper]

What are you talking about? I meant the 2nd have of your comments, about the baffles. IE my comment was dead on.

So, you're saying the quote below is entirely correct and typed out exactly as you mean it?

Good baffling will allow for a more uniform distribution of airflow and force half through the for and second half of the IC.

In case it's hard to see, it's the use of "for". I don't claim to be an intercooling genius, however, I do know some English. But then again, maybe I am wrong and and you did type that out as intended and I just found out that there's a lot more to intercooling theory than I knew.

ANYWAYS,
I'd love to be able to see some data on 2" vs. 3" vs. 4" cores of otherwise similar dimensions. If what I'm reading is correct then a thicker core will cool better but the increased drag/pressure loss defeats the purpose. I'd have to say that that's what the information in thread is pointing to, even if real world results may differ.

 

[yoshi_tony]

wow pretty good arguments here...would be nice to see if someone would compare them on a dyno and post it up....

Mangina24 what FMIC did you compare?

 

[MaNGiNa24]

Routing is more of a PIA on our cars but everything else are facts, period. The calculations on airflow through the intercooler and charge air are mathematical calculations that I can give you if you want them.

Also the baffling is not subjective either, also a fact. Turbulence has a large play in this. Rather not go into it but if you all want a detailed write-up I'm sure I can accommodate you over the next few days.

I understand you're a vender and I hope I'm not knocking your FMIC's just stating facts.

Yep, I'm a vendor but the things you mentioned have been tried in the past with no positive real world effects. Will internal baffling help maximize efficiency of the core, sure but will it also protrude flow, absolutely. It also adds unnecessary cost when an un-baffled end tank can get the job done.

Point is, I've seen plenty of 1000whp+ cars running unbaffled, side to side cores and they cool just fine

 

[phunny]

So, you're saying the quote below is entirely correct and typed out exactly as you mean it?



In case it's hard to see, it's the use of "for". I don't claim to be an intercooling genius, however, I do know some English. But then again, maybe I am wrong and and you did type that out as intended and I just found out that there's a lot more to intercooling theory than I knew.

ANYWAYS,
I'd love to be able to see some data on 2" vs. 3" vs. 4" cores of otherwise similar dimensions. If what I'm reading is correct then a thicker core will cool better but the increased drag/pressure loss defeats the purpose. I'd have to say that that's what the information in thread is pointing to, even if real world results may differ.

@$$ hat

Yep, I'm a vendor but the things you mentioned have been tried in the past with no positive real world effects. Will internal baffling help maximize efficiency of the core, sure but will it also protrude flow, absolutely. It also adds unnecessary cost when an un-baffled end tank can get the job done.

Point is, I've seen plenty of 1000whp+ cars running unbaffled, side to side cores and they cool just fine

I guess you don't really understand airflow so I'm not even going to respond to the first comment as I'm tired and don't feel like giving this lesson. Another day maybe

And about 1000+hp cars? Please explain how that means ANYTHING at all? Does that mean it was done in the most efficient manner?

@ sitting home all day trying to do calculations on paper! with no REAL world results.

Who sits at home doing calculations? Surely not me, I personally hate math

 

[tenn-gsx]

Please explain how it works in relation to my last question Phunny.

 

[phunny]

Please explain how it works in relation to my last question Phunny.

Sorry, missed that post somehow. Basically what your doing is spreading the head over a wider range and therefore the IC won't get as hot. Because when you cut down on tubes the first part of the IC takes all the heat and gets hot so basically you're not even getting the cooling until part way through the IC. When people talk about "heat soak" what you're actually doing is heating the charge air therefore your intercooler turns into a interheater. <--- and yes that is a real term

And a lot of the thermal efficiency of an intercooler is in the design and placement of it.

 

[tenn-gsx]

So your saying that the vertical style wont get hot on the inlet side of the cooling tubes?

 

[92EagleAWD]

I am going to refer to this thread for a but of useful info on piping and such.

How much will different size intercooler piping flow?

 

[phunny]

So your saying that the vertical style wont get hot on the inlet side of the cooling tubes?

Sorry it's taking me so long to respond, been busy :/. Without going into some serious detail(which I will because you seem very interested ) just think of this. The top and bottom tanks are over twice the size of the side to right? There is a lot more area to disburse the heat and even though the cooling tubes are shorter, there are a lot more of them and the air entering isn't near as hot.

 

[sniver]

Phunny, where do you opinions originate from. Are you stating opinion, or do you have evidence to back up your claims. I don't have any experience that states differently, but I do not agree with a sizable portion of what your saying.

One point being the top to bottom end tanks. Yes there is less resistance with a short path, but that also equates to less time to cool. Also top to bottom tanks, like th one you show let air in on one side, haveing to pass many sharp edges the entire length of the tank.

I believe the biggest difference are in the core design, how well they flow, because there is no magic end tank that gets around poor core flow.

And what vendor was getting at is effiency in terms other than how you described. You said what does a 1000hp mean, there may be a more efficient design in term of extracting more power. He was getting at the cost per hp, It got the job done without costing godly amount of money is all.

 

[BIGBLAZE79]

There is one main factor that matters (Surface area) the rest is trivial. You're thinking was too hard into it. Real world is spend less money for the punishment/CX/SSAC kit and get all the performance you will ever need.

 

[silicosys4]

not to turn this into a cheap vs. expensive intercooler thread, but the punishment/ssac/cx racing intercoolers will NOT give you all the performance you should ever need, and i know because i have one. Lucas English told me that to tune me for my goals of more than 21-22 psi on pump gas i'll need a bigger intercooler, a "race" core, as pump gas is really dependant on charge temp to reduce knock. So it depends on what your goals are, don't just assume a cheap intercooler can do what you need, sometimes they won't.
BTW, my punishment intercooler is an awesome kit for the money, i just need more, and the 2g punishment intercooler is much bigger than the 1g intercooler core that i have.

 

[JusMX141]

not to turn this into a cheap vs. expensive intercooler thread, but the punishment/ssac/cx racing intercoolers will NOT give you all the performance you should ever need, and i know because i have one. Lucas English told me that to tune me for my goals of more than 21-22 psi on pump gas i'll need a bigger intercooler, a "race" core, as pump gas is really dependant on charge temp to reduce knock. So it depends on what your goals are, don't just assume a cheap intercooler can do what you need, sometimes they won't.

He may also be trying to sell you parts.

575whp/521tq on a Mustang dyno, 2.4L, SSAC FMIC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWc6NR9iL7E&feature=youtu.be

 

[donniekak]

He may also be trying to sell you parts.

575whp/521tq on a Mustang dyno, 2.4L, SSAC FMIC.

YouTube - &#x202a;Rickys 2g Turbo Eclipse Dyno 575AWHP 522AWTQ HX40&#x202c;&rlm;

I've run close to 40 psi on my 1g punishment setup, in 118* ambient temps.

 

[silicosys4]

He may also be trying to sell you parts.

]

Actually he wants to help me build and tune me a reliable car that can meet my goals, and for 360-380 whp on a 68hta on pump gas, a punishment intercooler wouldn't do it for me unless i was on E85 or water meth, and it seems English isn't too big a fan of water/meth, he was much more pumped on a bigger intercooler it sounded like.
He also didn't tell me what brand to buy, or to buy something he has sitting around. He just said go bigger, as big as you can fit/afford.... and it will be a lot easier to get the results i want.
It sounded like his advice was the same for turbo's...save your money for one, the IC is not a place to cut corners. I'm not saying the punishment kit isn't a screaming deal, or for moderate/mild builds that it doesn't work like a charm, but like all budget parts, it is what it is. Nothing more.

It doesn't concern me what other people have gotten away with on their build, i trust the sources i use, and their knowledge. The 4g63 is capable of withstanding a lot of abuse, 40psi on a $175 intercooler core just doesn't sound right no matter how many times i repeat it under my breath. I would reeeeeeally love to see the log of that 40psi pull, if you can post it. Maybe its time Sierra Sierra started running SSAC intercoolers on their time attack evo.

 

[H4G64T]

not to turn this into a cheap vs. expensive intercooler thread, but the punishment/ssac/cx racing intercoolers will NOT give you all the performance you should ever need, and i know because i have one. Lucas English told me that to tune me for my goals of more than 21-22 psi on pump gas i'll need a bigger intercooler, a "race" core, as pump gas is really dependant on charge temp to reduce knock. So it depends on what your goals are, don't just assume a cheap intercooler can do what you need, sometimes they won't.
BTW, my punishment intercooler is an awesome kit for the money, i just need more, and the 2g punishment intercooler is much bigger than the 1g intercooler core that i have.

He's not just trying to sell you things. A vast collection of guys well more experienced than any of us posting so far agree 100% with Lucas.

Pump gas and cheaping out on your core, is basically robbing yourself of power. Not as important on e85, but will still make a difference.

 

[donniekak]

The 4g63 is capable of withstanding a lot of abuse, 40psi on a $175 intercooler core just doesn't sound right no matter how many times i repeat it under my breath.

Neither does 30 psi on the stock sidemount, but that works to. E85, is one h3ll of a drug.

Pump gas, is basically robbing yourself of power.

Fixed