2G Pushing coolant again

[jakk220]

Well after 2 head gasket jobs, I'm back to pushing coolant again. The last time I did the head gasket I re-used my ARP head studs, moly lube when torqueing, torqued in sequence, head re-surfaced with RA finish and pressure tested, no copper spray, block was checked for being warped and was within spec (was resurfaced about 30k ago).

The car stopped pushing coolant for a while and now is back at it again. Car runs low on coolant and the temps start to go up. The coolant reservoir is getting filled to the top and is not getting sucked back into the car when it cools down.

Here is the fun part. The car has compression of 180 across the board. I did a leak down test up to 90psi and there was no bubbles in the coolant at all. Leak down test was clean.

My thought is that maybe I'm lifting the head due to the ARP head studs not being strong enough? I'm not really entirely sure what they are good to as far as HP or cylinder pressures. Should I upgrade to L19 head studs and try that or could there be some other issue that's not a head gasket that I am overlooking. It seems to have the coolant issue more with 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear pulls more than 1st and 2nd.

When all of this started I was running my HX40 at 34psi, E85, 19 degrees of timing, 12.5 AFR, and no knock. Mind you I do have 9:1 compression pistons as well. On the bright side it did make 423WHP on Buschurs Mustang Dyno.

Any input helps. Im just tired of replacing head gaskets on this car. Thanks.

 

[ThunderChild]

Sounds like a soft head to me with too many miles/cycles on it. What gasket are you using?

 

[pauleyman]

What did your torque those to and di you do it again after a few heat cycles?

 

[jakk220]

What did your torque those to and di you do it again after a few heat cycles?

I torqued them to 95 ft/lbs and I used a felpro composite gasket. I rechecked them after about 3 days of driving and didn't get any turns out of them at all.

 

[jakk220]

Also I wasn't aware that the head getting soft was in issue to look out for. Never even thought of it. Is there even a way to test for that issue?

 

[pauleyman]

Also I wasn't aware that the head getting soft was in issue to look out for. Never even thought of it. Is there even a way to test for that issue?

Ive never heard of it either. Any possibility your torque wrench isnt right?

 

[jakk220]

I highly doubt it. It was my neighbors torque wrench that I borrowed because I didn't trust mine. Its a Snap-on that he treats like gold and is calibrated once a year. A good thought though. After having the head gasket leak pressure into the cooling system twice I was sure to go over every possibility I could think of as to why it happened twice. But now a third time? I have to be lifting the head. Just don't really know what to do about it.

I thought about getting the block O-ringed and a receiving groove in the head but don't want to have to pull the bottom end apart. Is it possible to get it O-ringed with the pistons installed still?

I just don't feel as though me set up should require L19's and O-Rings. But I'm running out of possibilities here .

 

[ThunderChild]

Aluminum can get soft through heat cycling at higher temps.
Anyway, might not be the issue, what about a possible cracked block lower in the cylinder, expanding after heating up and higher loads pushing compression?
Or even a crack in the head?

 

[pauleyman]

Did you have the head pressure checked? Did you clean out the head bolt holes with a bottoming tap and bottom out the studs?

 

[jakk220]

Did you have the head pressure checked? Did you clean out the head bolt holes with a bottoming tap and bottom out the studs?

The head was pressure checked. Tested fine on both occasions that the head was leaking compression into the coolant. Also I would assume that the cracked block would have shown on the coolant system pressure test. The engine was fairly hot still when I tested the system. Also it would have shown a varying cylinder on a compression test I would imagine. Not impossible but I would say improbable. I like the thinking outside of the box though.

And the holes I did not run a tap through, but I did make sure that the studs were all seated correctly with an allen wrench. Not over tightened but enough so that I knew the bottomed out. Used ARP lube on the top threads only with the nut.

What are the odds that its tune related? I figure that would have blown the gasket out to the point that it would show on a leak down test. I guess I could be wrong though.

 

[diambo4life]

Either....
1. Head is not flat.
2. Block is not flat.
3. Crack(s) in coolant passage in head/block.
4. Oil/water cooler (if you have one.)
5. Defective head gasket or hardware. (highly unlikely)
6. Install prep/technique.

Those are your only suspects.

 

[biglady112]

No one lifts their cylinder heads. They just say it to sound like a badass. If that really was the case there would be all sorts of evidence of that kind of damage. From what you stated above it sounds like you are far too aggressive with the tune and probably beat on it too much which shortens the life span significantly. We have done far more with a stock head gasket and regular arp's. Turn the car down.

 

[gsxeclipse102]

Well after 2 head gasket jobs, I'm back to pushing coolant again. The last time I did the head gasket I re-used my ARP head studs, moly lube when torqueing, torqued in sequence, head re-surfaced with RA finish and pressure tested, no copper spray, block was checked for being warped and was within spec (was resurfaced about 30k ago).

The car stopped pushing coolant for a while and now is back at it again. Car runs low on coolant and the temps start to go up. The coolant reservoir is getting filled to the top and is not getting sucked back into the car when it cools down.

Here is the fun part. The car has compression of 180 across the board. I did a leak down test up to 90psi and there was no bubbles in the coolant at all. Leak down test was clean.

My thought is that maybe I'm lifting the head due to the ARP head studs not being strong enough? I'm not really entirely sure what they are good to as far as HP or cylinder pressures. Should I upgrade to L19 head studs and try that or could there be some other issue that's not a head gasket that I am overlooking. It seems to have the coolant issue more with 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear pulls more than 1st and 2nd.

When all of this started I was running my HX40 at 34psi, E85, 19 degrees of timing, 12.5 AFR, and no knock. Mind you I do have 9:1 compression pistons as well. On the bright side it did make 423WHP on Buschurs Mustang Dyno.

Any input helps. Im just tired of replacing head gaskets on this car. Thanks.

The fact the coolant bottle overfills but doesnt suck back into the engine makes me think your radiator cap is not working correctly. If it pushes the coolant out but never pulls it back in your introducing air into the system. Leak down test was good

 

[jakk220]

The fact the coolant bottle overfills but doesnt suck back into the engine makes me think your radiator cap is not working correctly. If it pushes the coolant out but never pulls it back in your introducing air into the system. Leak down test was good

You know I never thought about the cap. I replaced it maybe 3 years ago and then just never really thought about it. It definitely isn't getting coolant sucked back into the system because it stays full overnight. I will replace it on Wednesday and drive the car a little hard for a day and see what happens after some highway pulls. That would be an insane relief if that was it. Now I'm not too familiar with what cylinder pressures normally are, but is 90 psi leak free on a leak down test a safe bet that the gasket is good or should I go higher and see if it leaks?

No one lifts their cylinder heads. They just say it to sound like a badass. If that really was the case there would be all sorts of evidence of that kind of damage. From what you stated above it sounds like you are far too aggressive with the tune and probably beat on it too much which shortens the life span significantly. We have done far more with a stock head gasket and regular arp's. Turn the car down.

Believe me, the last thing I care about at this point is sounding like a bad ass. I drive my car spiritedly when it comes out, which is maybe 2 days out of the week if that anymore. I don't beat on it launching at every light and running aggressive anti-lag at a car meet to sound cool. To my understanding, 19 degrees of timing and 34psi with no knock should be a fairly "safe" area to be in. I did take the timing back to 17 degrees and lower it to 30psi and am having the same problem.

 

[gsxeclipse102]

I would replace all the coolant with a 75/25 water coolant mix. Bleed the system good and replace the radiator cap. Also check the overflow bottle and ensure the overflow hose from the engine is fully submerged in the coolant inside the bottle

 

[jakk220]

I would replace all the coolant with a 75/25 water coolant mix. Bleed the system good and replace the radiator cap. Also check the overflow bottle and ensure the overflow hose from the engine is fully submerged in the coolant inside the bottle

It is definitely completely submerged. I will inspect the hose to make sure it doesn't have any splits in it that would allow it to suck in air into the system. Would air in the system actually cause me to lose coolant? I just figure it would over heat but still keep the coolant it had in the system. I will report back with my findings.

 

[bling5tatus]

Launching your car isn't going to typically cause you to push coolant, it's long 4th gear pulls with a bad tune.... or bad mechanical setup as mentioned above.

I've reused the same ARP studs across several motors and they still hold the head down just fine.... I'm sure they're not perfect anymore but I've had zero issues with them doing their job so far.

 

[turboglenn]

I had the same problem I ended up buying a set of l-19 head studs going back to a Fel-Pro head gasket and bolt in the same head back down after only having it checked and I haven't put coolant in years

 

[ceedawg]

I had the same problem I ended up buying a set of l-19 head studs going back to a Fel-Pro head gasket and bolt in the same head back down after only having it checked and I haven't put coolant in years

And I would do a final tq of at least 105ftlbs as well with the L-19s. I know folks that have gone 110 to 115ft lbs tq due to running high boost pressures 30 plus.

 

[wishihadatalon]

I tend to agree with Biglady. After reading plugs, 15 degrees of timing is about the limit I can get out of my car before I start seeing spots on them. Your relatively high compression, lean afr, and high timing values are not doing you any favors. The DSMTuners recipe of hx40, e85, 30+ psi, lean afrs, and 19-22 degrees of timing is a very dangerous one and one that likely contributes to the amount of head gasket related threads on this forum.

 

[biglady112]

10-15* is all you need. Anymore is just saying energy and not benefiting you at all. Remember, it is 19* plus your base. So if your base if 5*, that is 24* total. Aggressive. If your base is 10*, that is 29*, far too aggressive. Ignition timing is not the whole story

Fatten it up to 11.5:1. You are not leaving anything on the table with that. 12.5:1 drastically shortens your safety window however. I am usually in the 110lb/ft range. Been as high as 120 on stock bolts. I usually have the torque plated to 110 as well during machining. 90-95 has never worked for us. Big boy torque and no issues. Even for five miles down the salt flats. We had trouble in the beginning keeping a head gasket in. The motors would just get super heated after 2-3 miles. Some old guys told us we were doing it wrong and a simple fix and we could maintain 200mph without issue consistently. We added capacity (8,10,15 gallons) to the system and no more issues. And have not had any on any car since. At the same time we don't beat on them all the time and they only come out very little to go to the track.

 

[bastarddsm]

Head's do get soft from hard use.

Biglady, I'm pretty sure almost every system in the world shows total timing in the maps, as long as you have the cas set correctly. I do get your point, his map probably assumes 5* base, and if he was at 10* by chance he has 24 when his logger shows 19. I think 19 is a bit high. I had my best luck on the holset setup in the 12.0 AFR region with 17-18* of timing at high rpm, and BR8ES plugs. The BR8ES plugs and tight gaps, has an effect of retarding the timing some.

The other point is what is your timing like at peak torque? That's where your wounding gaskets. You should be around 10* at 5000RPM at 35psi.

 

[Boomdeeze]

Not going to lie but I have a similar problem Jakk220. I've done the HG two times which I know is done correctly. L19's and Cometic HG torqued to 105 fts and rechecked after a few head cycles. Car has no bubbles when the cap is off but will randomly want to overflow with the cap off if I leave it off. It almost seems like it happens when the thermostat opens up and that is when it starts to come out. I get it topped off as much as I can and do a pull which then pushes coolant out the cap and in to the engine bay. Do I have air in the system still or how is it building too much pressure? Cap has been replaced along with the thermostat. Head was resurfaced when I got the 2g head altered to fit a 6 bolt block and has net been driven more than 10 miles.

 

[jakk220]

I'm on my way to autozone to get a new radiator cap as we speak. I'm also going to take the timing back to a safe 14 degrees for a while and see what happens. I will also post a log up tonight at WOT. Sadly ice always relied on the knock sensor for tuning. I'm new to tuning with E85 (tuning in general really) and am slowly figuring it all out.

Thanks for the help with this issue guys. Its definitely helping and giving me some motivation with the car again.

I will richen up the AFR as soon as I get the 450 pump I have installed. I'm out of pump on my 255 . Will post log shortly though. Stay tuned (no pun intended.)

 

[jakk220]

Here's a 3rd gear pull