Fearing a blown HG, or worse- Pushing coolant issues

[project_tsi]

Hey all, I fear I have a blown HG, or worse, a warped or cracked head, or cracking in the cylinder walls.

The car is a new built 2.3L engine with just over 1100 miles on it. For the past 2-300 miles I've noticed the car pour coolant out of the overflow after some spirited, high boost driving.

Never once has the car overheated at all, at idle nor while driving hard. My fans work properly. It has a new waterpump, and new 180* t-stat. I have also tried 3 different radiator caps, 2 stock pressure (13psi) and I'm currently using a 16psi cap. For reference my overflow is located where the stock IC was. I do not hear any bubbling like others do, and I have no oil in coolant, and no coolant in oil, the car does not pour out any white smoke. The only smoking it does is a small bit of black smoke due to richness. A compression check revealed 170, 170, 168, 170 from 4 to 1, with the comp 200 cams. There are no other coolant leaks.

For reference I'm using the SCE Titan ICS HG along w/ ARP's torqued to ~90 ft. lbs, although I have not retorqued them since the install, perhaps I should, but I'm doubting it will affect the problem.

I check the coolant regularily, almost every time I stop the car, and if I drive with no boosting not as much coolant is lost, but if boosting it dumps a lot. Its like the car pushes coolant to the overflow tank but it won't suck it back into the system when it cools down, instead it dumps it too the ground. For this reason, the overflow is always full so its always dumping since its not sucking it back into the system. The upper hose is always empty of coolant unless the t-stat opens, then it flows up in the hose like a small geyser, thus again leading to HG. The up hose is also still pressurized for a while until it cools down but it only has air in it unless the t-stat is opened.

Also, the plugs look good, none are clean looking like that of alot of coolant being pushed into a cylinder.

I've checked nearly everything I can. Is there ANY way there is some sort of fault in the system resulting the coolant to not be sucked back into the system? The only things I can do now is to throw in another new t-stat and retorque the HG studs.

And in all aspects, I really don't mind doing a new HG, but I can't afford to fix a broken head or block.

Any ideas please help, but right now its pointing to HG.

Thanks, Dan.

 

[GVR4592]

SCE reccomends retorqueing the head studs. Even though it is a copper gasket the head and block surface need to be very smooth. Do you know what the finish is on your head and block?

 

[blackGSX2g]

My motor did that after a few thousand as well with exactly the same symptoms. I replaced everything you did in denial about my headgasket failure. Perfect compression, no smoking or mixing fluids...I finally bit the bullet and ran a hydrocarbon test on my coolant and it showed evidence of combustion chamber gasses in the coolant. Many shops test for free, and Autozone/Advance has them for fairly cheap.

If that doesn't reveal anything, you could buy/rent/borrow a cooling system pressure tester so see if you have a small leak that you can't see. If your cooling system has a leak, its possible that it sucks in air from the leak instead of sucking the coolant back in when your motor cools down.

 

[project_tsi]

SCE reccomends retorqueing the head studs. Even though it is a copper gasket the head and block surface need to be very smooth. Do you know what the finish is on your head and block?

I do not now the RA finish value of the head and block, but the block was decked and checked for straightness/warpage, and the head was also machined to a near mirror finish and checked for straightness/ warpage. Both surfaces were as near to perfect as you could get.

Should I retorque the studs to 90 ft. lbs, or perhaps go up a few lbs?

Let me try and find a pic of the head and deck for your reference.

 

[project_tsi]

My motor did that after a few thousand as well with exactly the same symptoms. I replaced everything you did in denial about my headgasket failure. Perfect compression, no smoking or mixing fluids...I finally bit the bullet and ran a hydrocarbon test on my coolant and it showed evidence of combustion chamber gasses in the coolant. Many shops test for free, and Autozone/Advance has them for fairly cheap.

If that doesn't reveal anything, you could buy/rent/borrow a cooling system pressure tester so see if you have a small leak that you can't see. If your cooling system has a leak, its possible that it sucks in air from the leak instead of sucking the coolant back in when your motor cools down.

Matt I wasn't aware you had a HG go out on you. What HG was it and what did you replace it with, and what did you torque to and has it shown any signs of happening again?

 

[GVR4592]

Looks damn smooth to me. Maybe one of the coolant o-rings cracked or was damaged some how. I would pull it as soon as possible and check the gasket, just so you don't risk warping the head.

 

[blackGSX2g]

Matt I wasn't aware you had a HG go out on you. What HG was it and what did you replace it with, and what did you torque to and has it shown any signs of happening again?

The HG that went out was the OEM Composite with ARPs torqued to 90 ft/lbs. It was just a small rupture between cyl 2(or 3, dont remember) and the nearest coolant passage. I replaced it with the Mitsu MLS with copper spray and a new set of ARPs and torqued them to 90-95 ft/lbs with the moly lube. Thats when I installed my built head, resurfaced properly for a metal headgasket. All I did to the block was scrape off the composite with a razor and go over it with some high grit sandpaper.

I have boosted past 25psi with my 50-trim with no signs of repeating my previous symptoms. After a series of hard runs, my car might bubble a bit after it shuts down, but it never spits out coolant and its always full.

 

[project_tsi]

Looks damn smooth to me. Maybe one of the coolant o-rings cracked or was damaged some how. I would pull it as soon as possible and check the gasket, just so you don't risk warping the head.

Its possible a ring was damaged but its still weird how there is zero signs of oil in coolant, or coolant in oil, etc.

I think I will retorque the head studs tommorow and if it doesn't help I'll proceed to ripping off the head.

 

[GVR4592]

If it was just a coolant ring the chance of it getting into the oil would be very unlikely unless one of the oil rings was damaged as well. If it's just a coolant ring then it would only be exposed to combustion pressure and gasses.

 

[project_tsi]

The HG that went out was the OEM Composite with ARPs torqued to 90 ft/lbs. It was just a small rupture between cyl 2(or 3, dont remember) and the nearest coolant passage. I replaced it with the Mitsu MLS with copper spray and a new set of ARPs and torqued them to 90-95 ft/lbs with the moly lube. Thats when I installed my built head, resurfaced properly for a metal headgasket. All I did to the block was scrape off the composite with a razor and go over it with some high grit sandpaper.

I have boosted past 25psi with my 50-trim with no signs of repeating my previous symptoms. After a series of hard runs, my car might bubble a bit after it shuts down, but it never spits out coolant and its always full.

Ok thanks. Now is there anything special that needs to be done to the head to properly seal a MLS, or is the way mine looks ok?

Andy had almost talked me into using a composite HG, as I know many people succesfully ran 30+psi on stock HG's but I honestly really don't want to use one. But then again I've had a cometic fail on me. Is the Mitsu MLS better than a standard Cometic? And I see you recomend copper spray.

 

[GVR4592]

A mls head gasket need a finish of 50 ra or finer. I would check the block and head before you install one, or you could be back in the same situation. The Cometic is closer in thickness to a stock gasket than the Mitsubish mls. Stock is .042" compressed, Cometic is .051" and the Mitsubishi MLS is .067" The Mitsubish mls gasket is for people that have removed a lot of material from the cylinder head.

 

[project_tsi]

Isn't the Mitsu MLS 4 layers? The Cometic is 3, and does that matter?

 

[andymoraitis]

Dan,

I recommended the composite because I know it seals well against any deficiencies in the head and block surface, but if we find that yours is smooth enough, an MLS would work fine. Copper spray is also recommended and we can clean everything up with a razor blade and fine grit as Matt mentioned.

The Titan ICS is a hit or miss proposition and I'll bet that's the source of your problem. Let me know if you want to do this by Wednesday and I'll make sure we have the parts.

Andy

 

[blackGSX2g]

Ok thanks. Now is there anything special that needs to be done to the head to properly seal a MLS, or is the way mine looks ok?

Andy had almost talked me into using a composite HG, as I know many people succesfully ran 30+psi on stock HG's but I honestly really don't want to use one. But then again I've had a cometic fail on me. Is the Mitsu MLS better than a standard Cometic? And I see you recomend copper spray.

Your head surface looks ok. I just made sure to tell my machinist that I was using a metal headgasket so they made sure to get everything perfect.

The composite is a really good choice if you are on a budget and are worried about block/head surfaces. I didn't go with it simply because I'd rather aire on the side of caution, not to mention I really didn't want to go through the headache of overheating and going through more coolant than gasoline in my car. I swear I popped coolant lines several times a week; in a daily driver, thats horrible.

I sprayed my gasket, and I've always sprayed metal HGs on friend's Honda's with no problem. This was all before I read Doug's information on copper spray, but I will continue to spray them as its worked well with my car as well as my Honda buddies.

I honestly couldn't tell you if the Mitsu MLS is better than a standard Cometic, but I like the fact that the Mitsu MLS is put on mass produced factory cars which are designed to last many miles through tortureous conditions of a daily driven car. I'm glad I went with the MLS and would recommend it to others in the same position.

EDIT: yes, the Mitsu MLS is 4 layers and is a bit thicker than the Mitsu composite.

 

[project_tsi]

Well my current HG is .050" so thats about the thickness of a Cometic, but with the way my head has been machined already, I think it may be best to go with a bit thicker HG. So I'm leaning torward the Mitsu MLS this time around.

 

[GVR4592]

Well my current HG is .050" so thats about the thickness of a Cometic, but with the way my head has been machined already, I think it may be best to go with a bit thicker HG. So I'm leaning torward the Mitsu MLS this time around.

Do you have access to the Dsmlink forums?

 

[project_tsi]

Do you have access to the Dsmlink forums?

Yes.

 

[GVR4592]

http://www.dsmlink.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7996&page=3&pp=15

Post #34

The original poster of that statement doesn't want that information to leave the Dsmlink forums.

 

[project_tsi]

Wow, That is amazing.

 

[andymoraitis]

Brownie points for the composite. Mine held 26-28psi on stock head studs and lots of pump gas last year. When it was removed, it was in excellent condition after almost 70K miles.

Let me know which one you want.

 

[GVR4592]

I also used a stock gasket at 25 psi for almost a year with stock bolts on pump gas with no problems.

 

[project_tsi]

Andy, I'm wondering if the car's knocking doesn't have something to attribute to the pushing coolant? I really doubt it, but you never know. I've been reading the whole thread on the DSMLink forums and it just doesn't seem too many people have good luck with this HG, especially on a street car.

I'm also reading that the cometic comes with a viton sealer so no copper spray is required,. Mine was like this and still pushed oil last year, and The Mitsu MLS guys are putting 5 to 6 layers of copper spray on and not having problems.

I'm wondering if you can combine the Cometic still with a few coats of copper spray and if people are having good luck with that setup.

But as of right now I'm leaning toward a Mitsu MLS, but can you get one for a .40 over?

 

[andymoraitis]

Dan,

Let me talk to Jon and see what I can do. Whatever happens, I need parts by Tuesday so we can do this on Wednesday and we still need to have enough time to block off my EGR and cap all of my vacuum ports. It'll be a busy day for sure.

I'll shop around and let you know what I can find.

Andy

 

[project_tsi]

I pulled the head tonight and I'm scared about what I found. As you can see there are some major problems. The HG actuall warped into an egg shape at the top as you can see. What could have caused this? Detonation? Something else? Also take a look at the clylinder walls, do those look like cracks to you? I have no experience with this so I dont know. There was no coolant in the oil and no oil in the coolant. Obviously the most problem was comming from cylinder 3. The exhaust even looks alot different. And what happened to the surface of the head? Burned or what? I have no idea? Does it look useable?

Thanks all.

 

[99gst_racer]

Dan, I just spoke with my sales rep @ SCE and I e-mail your pics to the tech guy that is most familiar to the 4G63. He took one look and said "detonation". He stated that the gasket did exactly what it was supposed to do - become a fuse to protect the rest of the engine. He said that re-torquing after the first heat cycle is extremely important. After the initial firing of the engine, let it cool over night. Then the next day, loosen the head studs a bit, then re-torque to spec again. He said the copper gaskets are picky about your AFR.

He felt that if you were to replace it with another ICS, follow their re-torque procedure, and get your AFR where it should be (rid of knock), then this gasket should hold reliably to 35 psi.

*Keep in mind, these are not my opinions. I'm just relaying information from the manufacturer*