2G Pushing coolant again

[biglady112]

What cylinder was it? What do all the spark plugs look like? Can we get a picture of all four?

Don't listen to the moron above you. That is terrible advice. If a car is puking coolant bad enough for someone to bring their problems to an internet forum it likely is bad and is a legitimate problem. And things could get much much worse if you continue to beat on it.

And anyone's head studs can only last so long. They have a certain amount of stretch before they are no longer good . I don't care what anyone tells you. Measure them when they are new before they are ever used that way you can keep track of what happens to them each time you intend to reuse them.

If you or anyone is ignorant enough to live by that guys rules you will struggle with your project and never have a fast car with any kind of reliability. If that is the kind of stuff that guy has learned in the last six years he needs to take his expertise back to Facebook.

 

[kmetiuk]

Looks like extreme cylinder pressure pushing the cylinder "oring" pay of the head gasket out.....then burning it. Good thing you checked.... Thats crazy. Never seen that kinda failure before. I'm speculating a bit but ya , extreme cylinder pressure.

What did your last few failed gaskets look does your head and or block have a low spot at that point?

 

[kmetiuk]

Don't listen to the moron above you. That is terrible advice. If a car is puking coolant bad enough for someone to bring their problems to an internet forum.

And anyone's head studs can only last so long. They have a certain amount of stretch before they are no longer good . I don't care what anyone tells you.

If you or anyone is ignorant enough to live by that guys rules you will struggle with your project and never have a fast car with any kind of reliability. If that is the kind of stuff that guy has learned in the last six years he needs to take his expertise back to Facebook.

Wow. No need for names. Why you being so aggressive and negative? Settle the fcuk down.

You are so so wrong about the ARP head studs. ARP studs are not torque to yield. Meaning they do not stretch past the point of yielding (as long as you only torque to the specified torque on the data sheet they come with). In case you don't know what that means, yielding means it has stretched past the elastic are of the stress curve into the plastic area...this means that when torqued past yielding yes the will have stretched (proper engineering word being deformed) some amount when unloaded.

For someone that has built +125 blocks over 18 years, you'd think you'd know the difference between the two types (bolt vs stud) and how trorquing affects them....let alone the what a torque to yield bolt is.

Just in case you don't believe anyone at all on this...how about ARP themselves? Here is their FAQ in which they state "Are ARP bolts and studs re-usable?: Yes. As long as the fasteners have been installed and torqued correctly, and show no visible signs of damage, they can be re-used. If they show any signs of thread galling or corrosion, they should be replaced. In the case of rod bolts, if any of them have taken a permanent set and have stretched by .001” or longer, you should replace them immediately. " Rod bolts are different than studs so ya if you have ARP rod bolts then you mos def wanna check em. Studs are a different type of fastner than a bolt....again that is why we switch to them. If you are replacing the studs every time you do your blocks that's your prerogative to waste your money somewhere its not needed.

http://arp-bolts.com/p/FAQ.php

So ya, you are utterly and completely wrong on the ARP head studs reuse. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Also he said his car was only pushing coolant at high boost....not puking all over the place. Big difference. He said it wasnt burning out the tail pipe nor was it mixing...meaning that there was no coolant in the combustion chamber therefore he was not at risk of hydrolocking. I've had that issue before and fixed the problem and ran the same gasket and swapped for ARP studs and it lasted a long ass time afterward (until I had the 14B nut back off requiring a tear down.) Guess what....gasket I pulled was fine...no damage. So again your wrong.

I figured it was high cylinder pressure, but that is really crazy. He was a bit lean b/c of the tune and very advanced timing in the peak VE range of the 4G63 so its clear he was pushing coolant b/c of that. I've never seen a head gasket pushed laterally out the side like that so ya, it was bad advice to say run like that so my bad there. But in my defense I have never ever seen that bad of a failure and in that fashion...it takes a LOT of pressure to push the gasket like that....E85 is very knock resistant which is why people use it....so if you advance and advance timing you may not get knock and apparently push the head gasket out sideways. So again, good thing you pulled that gasket.

If you look at your first picture of one of the previous gaskets you can see where the teardrop seal on the one passage was pushed out from and away from the cylinder with a degraded gasket pathwway from cylinder to teardrop you can see where the pressures were again pushing the gasket out of the way.

TL;DR @biglady112 is wrong. you can reuse ARP studs if you only torque them to the specified torque sheet they come with.

 

[biglady112]

Well I play in big boy land and play with serious toys with serious power. You may be able to get away with backyard, cracker jack, hacked up fixes on your 14b but, if you bring that kind of mentality to the salt flats, standing miles or into the 150mph+ single digit range at the drag strip I assure you you will be scattering parts and ruining it for everyone else while they pick you cars guts up off the track.

Again, if you think a stud won't stretch you are sadly mistaken. I never stated we change them every time but you can be assured they are measured when new and remeasured before each intended reuse.

 

[bastarddsm]

Not the best picture but, I don't see anything out of the norm there other than the ring that would go around the teardrop feed/stud. And everything I see looks just like you would expect from removing a stock gasket after some use. Notice how intact the fire ring is with no damage or blackening? And pretty much that whole picture looks intact with no major trama or blackening.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong but, I have never seen a blown head gasket look so good in 18 years.

Steven, that's exactly what everyone I have had looked like. Mine would drive fine, and be completely normal under low boost, but at the track 4th gear it would geiser.

One thing I've seen, I'm getting fairly certain that regardless of what the gasket companies tell you a composite gasket needs as smooth of a surface as a MLS for it to perform at high levels.

OP take some timing out of it or get a new head. It's as simple as that. I'm running that same exact gasket on a virgin 6 bolt head machined for MLS with standard ARPs, and I have 2 seasons of 135-140mph traps on it. That's 6-700whp. Headgaskets on these things are not rocket science. Especially at mere mortal levels.

Wow. No need for names. Why you being so aggressive and negative? Settle the fcuk down.

You are so so wrong about the ARP head studs. ARP studs are not torque to yield. Meaning they do not stretch past the point of yielding (as long as you only torque to the specified torque on the data sheet they come with). In case you don't know what that means, yielding means it has stretched past the elastic are of the stress curve into the plastic area...this means that when torqued past yielding yes the will have stretched (proper engineering word being deformed) some amount when unloaded.

TL;DR @biglady112 is wrong. you can reuse ARP studs if you only torque them to the specified torque sheet they come with.

Dude, I don't think your the best person to be offering any advice especially refuting anyones advise. I can't see how you got torque to yield from biglady. He's simply stating studs are not a indestructable thing. Torque them once with generic moly lube and they are junk. Recording their lengths is prudent practice if you want shit to stay together. A change in length may be the only warning you get that they are about to fail.

 

[jakk220]

Steven, that's exactly what everyone I have had looked like. Mine would drive fine, and be completely normal under low boost, but at the track 4th gear it would geiser.

One thing I've seen, I'm getting fairly certain that regardless of what the gasket companies tell you a composite gasket needs as smooth of a surface as a MLS for it to perform at high levels.

OP take some timing out of it or get a new head. It's as simple as that. I'm running that same exact gasket on a virgin 6 bolt head machined for MLS with standard ARPs, and I have 2 seasons of 135-140mph traps on it. That's 6-700whp. Headgaskets on these things are not rocket science. Especially at mere mortal levels.

ally refuting anyones advise. I can't see how you got torque to yield from biglady. He's simply stating studs are not a indestructable thing. Torque them once with generic moly lube and they are junk. Recording their lengths is prudent practice if you want sh** to stay together. A change in length may be the only warning you get that they are about to fail.

My head has always been machined for a MLS with the RA mirror finish. Still had this happen. I will be replacing the studs, possibly the head, gasket, and getting it tuned better. By either learning or paying someone. Or asking for help on here. It has to be tune related.

I know they can stretch. I've heard of it happening. But the only way to know is to measure before and after. Which I didn't do. So a new set is in order. I appreciate your help. I need it for sure. I know you are very knowledgeable.

Also he said his car was only pushing coolant at high boost....not puking all over the place. Big difference. He said it wasnt burning out the tail pipe nor was it mixing...meaning that there was no coolant in the combustion chamber therefore he was not at risk of hydrolocking. I've had that issue before and fixed the problem and ran the same gasket and swapped for ARP studs and it lasted a long ass time afterward (until I had the 14B nut back off requiring a tear down.) Guess what....gasket I pulled was fine...no damage. So again your wrong.

I figured it was high cylinder pressure, but that is really crazy. He was a bit lean b/c of the tune and very advanced timing in the peak VE range of the 4G63 so its clear he was pushing coolant b/c of that. I've never seen a head gasket pushed laterally out the side like that so ya, it was bad advice to say run like that so my bad there. But in my defense I have never ever seen that bad of a failure and in that fashion...it takes a LOT of pressure to push the gasket like that....E85 is very knock resistant which is why people use it....so if you advance and advance timing you may not get knock and apparently push the head gasket out sideways. So again, good thing you pulled that gasket.

If you look at your first picture of one of the previous gaskets you can see where the teardrop seal on the one passage was pushed out from and away from the cylinder with a degraded gasket pathwway from cylinder to teardrop you can see where the pressures were again pushing the gasket out of the way.

TL;DR @biglady112 is wrong. you can reuse ARP studs if you only torque them to the specified torque sheet they come with.

I did say a page or so back the I WAS burning coolant like crazy. I DID have coolant in my oil. Just to clarify. That's why I new for sure it was blown. It started out as pushing coolant at high boost. Then it have way after that 4th gear pull.

As a closing statement: IF ANYONE ELSE HAS ANY ADVISE WITH MY TUNE OR WHAT TO REPLACE DURING THIS JOB, WHAT TO INSPECT, OR ANY OTHER PREP WORK.....PLEASE TELL ME. I don't want to do this again.

 

[kmetiuk]

He's simply stating studs are not a indestructable thing. Torque them once with generic moly lube and they are junk. Recording their lengths is prudent practice if you want sh** to stay together. A change in length may be the only warning you get that they are about to fail.

I simply stated hes wrong about studs not being able be reused. He's the one that came out of the gating calling people morons not me. "I play in big boy land and play with serious toys with serious power" like who fcuking cares...OP is not running the salt flats...he's tryna get a good tune and stop pushing coolant, not run +200MPH on 50 psi of boost.

I also realize they are not indestructible. If you are using them 0,15 times over many 10,000's of miles then ya,I'd be replacing them for peace of mind too. OP said he's been having this issue for a short while on hes weekend warrior so personally I'd reuse them b/c its not like they have been on the car for 5 years, 5 headgaskets and 100,000 miles.

As long as you stay in the elastic region of the stress strain curve for steel and load the studs in the manner they are designed, as ARP stated, they can be reused again and again. Steel has unlimited fatigue stress if you keep the load at the levels the part was designed for.

Here is typical stress strain curve for steel so you can see the elastic part of the curve I am refferring too:
http://nptel.ac.in/courses/112107146/lects & picts/image/lect11/fig 3.jpg

Yes the stretch a little (0.1%) when loaded for the very first time, but ALL bolts and fasteners do this. It doesn't mean that you need to replace all your bolts every time.

I'm like 99% sure it was only pushing coolant at high boost. If I babied it, it seemed to not push any. Although almost every time I get in the car it sees full boost at least once.

@jakk220 sorry, but you said it was not puking coolant all the time....you said 99% sure only at high boost...b/c I asked that specifically. I did miss the post about oil in the coolant after the 4th gear pull so my bad there. Clearly the head gasket was gone after that pull.

Dude, I don't think your the best person to be offering any advice especially refuting anyones advise.

Out of curiosity, why am I not the best person to be offering advice? Isn't that what this forum is about, people in a community offering advice? Who would the "best" person be on this site then? Should we only listen to them? Wait for that one person to post and answer all our questions?

All the posturing in this thread is very entertaining. Like chill out, stop calling people names and attacking each other and help the fcuking OP. No need for all the hate.

 

[bastarddsm]

I don't want to muddy up the thread, but it seems like you have some difficulty in keeping a car together. It's easy to do all sorts of conversions and mods, but at the end of the day if you aren't out there beating on it day in an day out you don't learn much about what it really takes to keep them going. I see some points in your post that are valid, but then again I see you asking questions you shouldn't be asking if you are giving advise on the level you are.

Biglady can come off very very course, but he speaks from years of experience. Not pie in the sky glory pass shit, but heavy duty constant beat down type work.

I see you talking about this fatigue and engineering type terms, with what seems like an incomplete understanding of the material.

Yes you are right, steel is very fatigue resistant, but it still has an endurance limit. Once you get around 50% of yield stress it's life is most defiantly finite. I don't remember the number off hand, but typically you torque a fastener to 80% of it's yield strength, that is certainly past the endurance limit. Also think if your going to 80% of yield, what happens if you use the wrong lube, or a bad torque wrench. It can be very very easy to ruin a fastener.

I did it to a set of rod bolts, I used some generic fel-pro moly lube. They yielded by 20ft*lbs, and the spec is 42. Let that sink in. Junk with less than half the torque, just due to one time with the wrong lube. I was lucky it didn't feel "right" and I took it back apart to check it. That's the difference between being a person acting like an expert, and being an expert. Not just blindly believing the wrench.

 

[Vegas Smith]

No reason to fight with each other. There is a lot of good info on this thread. However, if you want the truth about how to make these cars fast then I'm your man. All I need is your credit card number...

 

[jakk220]

No reason to fight with each other. There is a lot of good info on this thread. However, if you want the truth about how to make these cars fast then I'm your man. All I need is your credit card number...

Wait...what ? I agree there is a lot of good info in this thread though. I'm learning a lot so far.

I don't want to muddy up the thread, but it seems like you have some difficulty in keeping a car together. It's easy to do all sorts of conversions and mods, but at the end of the day if you aren't out there beating on it day in an day out you don't learn much about what it really takes to keep them going. I see some points in your post that are valid, but then again I see you asking questions you shouldn't be asking if you are giving advise on the level you are.

Biglady can come off very very course, but he speaks from years of experience. Not pie in the sky glory pass sh**, but heavy duty constant beat down type work.

I see you talking about this fatigue and engineering type terms, with what seems like an incomplete understanding of the material.

Yes you are right, steel is very fatigue resistant, but it still has an endurance limit. Once you get around 50% of yield stress it's life is most defiantly finite. I don't remember the number off hand, but typically you torque a fastener to 80% of it's yield strength, that is certainly past the endurance limit. Also think if your going to 80% of yield, what happens if you use the wrong lube, or a bad torque wrench. It can be very very easy to ruin a fastener.

I did it to a set of rod bolts, I used some generic fel-pro moly lube. They yielded by 20ft*lbs, and the spec is 42. Let that sink in. Junk with less than half the torque, just due to one time with the wrong lube. I was lucky it didn't feel "right" and I took it back apart to check it. That's the difference between being a person acting like an expert, and being an expert. Not just blindly believing the wrench.

I have used properly torqued wrenches every time. I will triple check though. Like I said I will be replacing a good amount of stuff for peace of mind. However I must ask, although you guys don't agree on much here... The posts a while back from @kmetiuk about the tuning... Do those seem accurate to you @bastarddsm ? Like all the things he said were wrong with it? Not that I'm saying anything you said is wrong @kmetiuk but I just want to get second opinions on everything. The more knowledge and input the better. I do know my tune is messed up .

 

[biglady112]

I can agree that if you have the ability during a repair to ensure that the block and cylinder head need to be verified/machined flat that one should try and do so. I don't blindly agree like I did once upon a time that the softer gaskets will soak up the impurities. Running copper gaskets brought that to life very quick when we experimented with those. At least on a gasket swap we check the head each time they come off. Fortunately for most of us the blocks will stay flatter longer and the warpage will stay in spec longer due to the cast iron. Unfortunately it is not true for the cylinder head as it is a normal characteristic of the aluminum to warp out of spec easier.

I would not say it is totally necessary to replace everything. If everything checks out and you are confident go for it. Of course you can extend the life of work out parts of you are careful about it. If the head has not been machined too short, reuse it if it checks out. If you still trust your studs and think they still may be of service to you and aren't junk, reinstall them at a more serious torque level. Say 105lbs or more. I treat every car the same and really crank them down. As high as 115 is not unheard of. Once you get to the big boy power I was referring to normal, off the shelf specs and inside the box thinking has to be done away with. You have to start acting and treating the car seriously. I know it may be difficult and more work at this time but, I would do everything to ensure the block is still nice and smooth and flat. Even I that means pulling the engine out to do so. Even if that means lapping the block, block sanding the surface or any number of things to make sure that surface is up to par. Roll all those pistons up and down and maybe go as far as removing the oil pan to make sure all the cylinder walls are still intact and not scored, cracked or comprimised in any way.

My keep It simple stupid methods have worked for years and head gasket issues are not something we deal with and i honestly can't say when the last time we lost a head gasket was since we first made it to the salt flats and had to relearn everything we thought we knew about keeping a car together. A few small steps is all it has taken to keep from puking gaskets out.

 

[bastarddsm]

I don't know about the tune. I haven't looked through it. What I can tell you is you have too much timing, the head is soft, or the deck isn't flat, or a combination of the 3.

Felpro and arp's will take a lot.

 

[biglady112]

I don't see anything horrible in the datalog. While a few things could be better, it is not enough on paper to scatter parts. I would certainly richen it up to 11.5:1 and leave it. If you do not have the fuel to support that and keep the fuel curve under control you will have to turn the boost down until it can control it. There is a fair amount of room for error if you go down to 11.5:1. If you leave it where it is at you will be and likely are on the raged edge. I have been using EGT data for almost 10 years now and just 100* means all the difference in keeping an engine together or not sometimes. I would likely run a little less timing and focus on letting the turbocharger try and make the power for you. 15-16* is not crazy, you just have to remember that your base timing is also applied to that factor. As stated the magic number for a lot of big power cars ends up in the 10-15* range.

And just because the crappy knock sensor is not picking up any noise does not mean that there is not an issue. The mitsubishi ecu is not the most advanced system.

No one should be ignorant enough to rely only on a dated knock sensing system and a single collective wideband output. There are four cylinders, four injectors and four spark plugs doing a large variety of things and you cannot be certain that all four of those holes is doing the same thing at the same time every stroke.

The more data the better. That will always remain true. While I agree with moving away from the mass air flow based system, so far up to this point I don't see any major issues with what you have going on. While your airflow curve is not the smoothest it does not seem to be dropping counts and fighting you. It still seems productive off that single 4th gear pull. My concern is why would you need to be in fourth gear and how often do you truly go into fourth gear under load? Is there a legitimate reason to wanting to go 130mph on what seems to be a public road for no reason? If you are racing at the track that is another story. It sounds like you enjoy beating on the car any time you want. And I am telling you that car is a time bomb which you seem to be coming around to after how many head gaskets now? You should be able to prove your point by the top of third gear on the street. The more load you give that car the faster and the worse things get. Ther is a local here who thinks he needs to race his car EVERY week to prove his street cred. And every race he thinks you need to go well into fifth gear wether or not the race is close. And guess what. He has been through 3-4 head gaskets now.

The car will treat you the way you treat it. It is okay to play, just be sensible. Turn it down a little, knock off the heavy load, long geared pulls and you will be fine. Just know that at higher horsepower per cubic inch levels the shelf life shortens dramatically. My motto is leave a little on the table and drive it home. It is more fun to beat on it for a long time at 90% capacity then for a few or less short runs turned to 100%. After all these years it is not so fun to have to take them apart all the time anymore. That is why we have gone the race car route and only come out to play a few times a year anymore. It is well beyond getting old fighting them.

 

[jakk220]

I don't see anything horrible in the datalog. While a few things could be better, it is not enough on paper to scatter parts. I would certainly richen it up to 11.5:1 and leave it. If you do not have the fuel to support that and keep the fuel curve under control you will have to turn the boost down until it can control it. There is a fair amount of room for error if you go down to 11.5:1. If you leave it where it is at you will be and likely are on the raged edge. I have been using EGT data for almost 10 years now and just 100* means all the difference in keeping an engine together or not sometimes. I would likely run a little less timing and focus on letting the turbocharger try and make the power for you. 15-16* is not crazy, you just have to remember that your base timing is also applied to that factor. As stated the magic number for a lot of big power cars ends up in the 10-15* range.

And just because the crappy knock sensor is not picking up any noise does not mean that there is not an issue. The mitsubishi ecu is not the most advanced system.

No one should be ignorant enough to rely only on a dated knock sensing system and a single collective wideband output. There are four cylinders, four injectors and four spark plugs doing a large variety of things and you cannot be certain that all four of those holes is doing the same thing at the same time every stroke.

The more data the better. That will always remain true. While I agree with moving away from the mass air flow based system, so far up to this point I don't see any major issues with what you have going on. While your airflow curve is not the smoothest it does not seem to be dropping counts and fighting you. It still seems productive off that single 4th gear pull. My concern is why would you need to be in fourth gear and how often do you truly go into fourth gear under load? Is there a legitimate reason to wanting to go 130mph on what seems to be a public road for no reason? If you are racing at the track that is another story. It sounds like you enjoy beating on the car any time you want. And I am telling you that car is a time bomb which you seem to be coming around to after how many head gaskets now? You should be able to prove your point by the top of third gear on the street. The more load you give that car the faster and the worse things get. Ther is a local here who thinks he needs to race his car EVERY week to prove his street cred. And every race he thinks you need to go well into fifth gear wether or not the race is close. And guess what. He has been through 3-4 head gaskets now.

The car will treat you the way you treat it. It is okay to play, just be sensible. Turn it down a little, knock off the heavy load, long geared pulls and you will be fine. Just know that at higher horsepower per cubic inch levels the shelf life shortens dramatically. My motto is leave a little on the table and drive it home. It is more fun to beat on it for a long time at 90% capacity then for a few or less short runs turned to 100%. After all these years it is not so fun to have to take them apart all the time anymore. That is why we have gone the race car route and only come out to play a few times a year anymore. It is well beyond getting old fighting them.

That is actually the first 4th gear pull to the top I have done in a very long time. I did it simple just to have the log to show everyone here. In case it mattered for some reason I guess. I want my car to be tuned no matter what gear I might be in. It really shouldn't be "if I do a 4th gear pull its going to probably blow up" kind of tune. I don't need it to be that aggressive I guess is what I'm saying. I do hit 4th at the track...

A few things are for sure happening.

1. New head and getting it milled and cleaned
2. New studs
3. New gasket
4. Upgrading to V3 full
5. Professional tune

If I blow another gasket after the whole engine is coming out for sure. I will be baffled for sure.

 

[jakk220]

I will also post spark plug pictures tomorrow.

 

[jakk220]

Just realized I never got around to posting the spark plug pictures. I should be able to post them tomorrow. However I do have parts on order to get this job done. I went with some L19's and I am going to check the block again and get the head off to the machine shop to get inspected and put some new valve seals in for good measure.

When inspecting the block with a straight edge, what size feeler gauge do you guys use? I think last time I used .0015
I know the directions and what not to check but wanted to make sure the feeler gauge I used is right.

Also @bastarddsm I sent you a PM about getting a tune done. I saw your ad in the freelancer section but wasn't sure if you were still offering remote tunes.

 

[jakk220]

Update: phone is giving me trouble loading pictures for some reason. But the block and head were flat. No low spots what so ever. Checked it with .004 feeler gauge and straight edge.

Head is going to the machine shop for a clean up and new valve seals.

Just cleaned out all the threads for the head studs with a thread chase. QUESTION: I've heard both. Lube the threads going into the block or no?

Used gasket remover and brake cleaner with a plastic scraper to clean the block

Anything im forgetting?

 

[kmetiuk]

Update: phone is giving me trouble loading pictures for some reason. But the block and head were flat. No low spots what so ever. Checked it with .004 feeler gauge and straight edge.

Head is going to the machine shop for a clean up and new valve seals.

Just cleaned out all the threads for the head studs with a thread chase. QUESTION: I've heard both. Lube the threads going into the block or no?

Used gasket remover and brake cleaner with a plastic scraper to clean the block

Anything im forgetting?

ARP site says lube the headstuds in the block, but I don't personally as I find as I torque the nut on top it causes the stud to turn in further into the block sometimew and when I disassemble it takes a fair amount of force to spin it out. Definitely lube the nut, the washer (both sides), and the threads liberally with ARP moly only. @bastarddsm used generic moly once with bad results apparently.

I've also read that you are supposed to torque and then undo all your head studs in sequence at least three times to get the proper stretch out of the stud if it's a virgin stud. I don't know how true that is but it makes sense materials engineering wise so I do it....it also apparently helps seat the threads in the block. Also make sure to retorque the head studs after the first heat cycle.

I have been told by afew engine builders recently, that i personally trust, to also lap the head surfaces with wet sand paper and a very flat sanding block. I tried it on my last head gasket change (which was last week) using 1000->1500->2000 grit with great results. It knocked off thoose last tiny bits of old gasket which i was super happy about. I checked the head surface for flatness using feeler gauges before and after and it didn't even move 0.001 inch. Im pretty confident now that the wet sandpaper will not knock down the metal while still taking off the last little bit of gaskets.

I'm not recommending the wetsand method to anyone but personally I was very pleased with the results. The plastic scraper plastic brush wheel method kind of scares me sometimes with the amount of RPMs with drills personally switching to be wet sandpaper method. Gasket remover is acidic and gelly and a pain to use so I'm not using that anymore.

 

[jakk220]

ARP site says lube the headstuds in the block, but I don't personally as I find as I torque the nut on top it causes the stud to turn in further into the block sometimew and when I disassemble it takes a fair amount of force to spin it out. Definitely lube the nut, the washer (both sides), and the threads liberally with ARP moly only. @bastarddsm used generic moly once with bad results apparently.

I've also read that you are supposed to torque and then undo all your head studs in sequence at least three times to get the proper stretch out of the stud if it's a virgin stud. I don't know how true that is but it makes sense materials engineering wise so I do it....it also apparently helps seat the threads in the block. Also make sure to retorque the head studs after the first heat cycle.

I have been told by afew engine builders recently, that i personally trust, to also lap the head surfaces with wet sand paper and a very flat sanding block. I tried it on my last head gasket change (which was last week) using 1000->1500->2000 grit with great results. It knocked off thoose last tiny bits of old gasket which i was super happy about. I checked the head surface for flatness using feeler gauges before and after and it didn't even move 0.001 inch. Im pretty confident now that the wet sandpaper will not knock down the metal while still taking off the last little bit of gaskets.

I'm not recommending the wetsand method to anyone but personally I was very pleased with the results. The plastic scraper plastic brush wheel method kind of scares me sometimes with the amount of RPMs with drills personally switching to be wet sandpaper method. Gasket remover is acidic and gelly and a pain to use so I'm not using that anymore.

I used the sanding method last time with a hard body sanding board from summit racing. Worked really well actually. I used bearing grease to stop all the buts from getting into the piston walls. It worked really good and obviously didn't warp mine either. I'm scared to use it again for some reason but might give it a shot again. I just feel as if the studs going into the block dry isn't letting them seat all the way. Like I have to put more force than I feel I should need. Even after cleaning the threads with the chase. So I might use a little arp lube or maybe just wd40. Well see how they go in with the new studs tomorrow.

I've always re-torqued them, but never loosened them to do so. Just went over them with the tq wrench again. This time maybe ill loosen them 1 at a time and re torque. Sounds like a safe bet.

 

[jakk220]

UPDATE: I believe I have solved the problem. All of these years the head was never properly getting torqued down. This was because the headstuds were acting like they were seated completely, but they were not. The thread chase I was using was not getting far enough down in the threads to help. After purchasing the ARP thread chase for 60 bucks :/ from summit racing, I was able to clean them properly and completely.

I noticed this after I set the head on the block, and I could see the bare part of the studs showing. In my head, this could not be right because it would never actually tighten down the head. So after the new chase was run through them, this is the end result.

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The one on the left was where I thought the threads were bottoming out. The reason I never noticed this before is because all of the head studs always sat evenly. My theory is this was because they were all stopping and feeling like they were bottoming out where the original head bolts stopped in the block.

Here is a picture of what made me notice that this could not be right and had always slipped past me before.

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As you can see, the stud was showing the unthreaded blank part of the stud. Once I noticed this, I knew something was wrong

Thank you so much for everyone that helped me in this thread. With this issue fixed, and getting a good tune, I am now confident that this head gasket will hold. Thanks again everyone!

 

[ThunderChild]

Glad the tap/chase worked for the studs, keep us updated after the car is up n' running

 

[jakk220]

Glad the tap/chase worked for the studs, keep us updated after the car is up n' running

Absolutely! I'm sure that the car is going to feel soooo much better now that everything is going to be proper. It will probably have a good bit more power to it as well!

 

[ceedawg]

UPDATE: I believe I have solved the problem. All of these years the head was never properly getting torqued down. This was because the headstuds were acting like they were seated completely, but they were not. The thread chase I was using was not getting far enough down in the threads to help. After purchasing the ARP thread chase for 60 bucks :/ from summit racing, I was able to clean them properly and completely.

I noticed this after I set the head on the block, and I could see the bare part of the studs showing. In my head, this could not be right because it would never actually tighten down the head. So after the new chase was run through them, this is the end result.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The one on the left was where I thought the threads were bottoming out. The reason I never noticed this before is because all of the head studs always sat evenly. My theory is this was because they were all stopping and feeling like they were bottoming out where the original head bolts stopped in the block.

Here is a picture of what made me notice that this could not be right and had always slipped past me before.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

As you can see, the stud was showing the unthreaded blank part of the stud. Once I noticed this, I knew something was wrong

Thank you so much for everyone that helped me in this thread. With this issue fixed, and getting a good tune, I am now confident that this head gasket will hold. Thanks again everyone!

Wow I hope that was the issue so you can get her back running right! keep us posted Good Luck

 

[jakk220]

Wow I hope that was the issue so you can get her back running right! keep us posted Good Luck

Thanks! I will definitely keep everyone posted with the new tune and the newly seated L19 head studs. I just purchased ECMlink v3 full instead of the lite version that I have had for years. A few fellow DSMer's on here on going to give me a hand with my tune and get me back to boosting!

 

[jakk220]

Well the ARP thread chase snapped off in the block last night. You know that feeling when your heart and stomach trade places. Yeah. It was pretty bad.

I believe it was a flaw in the tool. I wasn't cranking hard on it at all, just a tiny rough spot with some crud. Nothing that should have broken anything. Well I heard a little crack. I thought my ratchet slipped. Well it didn't. I kept going and as soon as the tap hit the bottom snap she went.

The whole tap snapped of and was inside the hole and bottomed out. Not flush or protruding. I thought for sure I was done for.

After an entire day of searching for a way to get it out. I found a local mom and pop shop that had a walton tap extractor tool. It has fingers that grab on to the flutes in the tap or chase and spin it out. I didn't think it was going to work. Well it almost didn't work since mine was bottomed out. But it did.

It bent the fingers on the tool, but right before those were about to break it started to spin. The relief was unreal. A very bad day to say the least.

Tomorrow I will be back at it putting her together. Fun fact of the day, walton tap extractor for 15 bucks....well worth it.

Also summit racing replaced the tool for free with a new one because they too could see that the way the tool snapped wasn't right for an over torque.