Next Test: E85 flex fuel vehicle via fuel trimming

[turboglenn]

425-450 is reasonable.



Stop crying at least its an option for you. I have to drive almost 300 miles to get to the nearest E85 pump.

That would truely suck to live that far from E85 (especially once use to running it)

This my friend is the bad part.
The higher i raise my boost the more annoyed I am with the cars performance on a lower boost...

I wish i wouldve never got used to running 23-24 lbs because 20lbs is so pointless to me that im not entertained at all. I dropped my car off at the paint shop for its paint job today and I always turn the boost wayyyy down and unplug my electric cutout anytime im away from my car ( dont trust people) and i went full throttle at 10lbs and almost fell asleep on the way there...

I guess because the goal is to never go slower...

I feel ya big time on that one..... Im so use to 23-24psi that i dont' know what's going to happen once i get use to 28psi on a daily basis I've only had the car to 28+psi a couple times before in it's life. I've never run that much at the strip because before i couldn't get traction past 19psi, so everything i run this year will be uncharted territory for my car..... I can't wait till may 23rd this year because i'm going to go down to KCIR and make my first ever passes at 24+psi (hoping to be able to pull out 28-30psi by then)

I need to get slicks first of all and then i'm hoping for some 1150's or bigger, but still haven't figured out what the minimum fuel system i can get by with to support them. Either way i'm sure hoping that this year on 24psi or more that i can break my previous best of 12.08 @ 117MPG on 19psi and get soemwhere in the 11's with a MPH of 120 or greater... Well, in one month i will have the answer, wish me luck!!!!!!! E85 eill be my "race fuel" I won't spend any money on leaded gas this year, if i can't do it on E85 it won't get done is the way i'm looking at it.

 

[JayRolla]

I think you will be just fine, e85 is making just as much power as pump as long as you have the fuel delivery. My buddy here is building a mirage that is just going to be insane. He was maxing out his 1600's before on a t67 but the new setup is going to have 8 injectors. I cant wait to see it.

 

[JeffGST]

2.4L
T3-T67 (.70/.82)A/R
255HP intank Y'd together in parallel with a Bosch 044 inline

Maxed out the 1600cc's at 36 PSI or 66lbs/min of airflow. I drive it like this everyday of the week and it is an experience. I am looking to add a 3rd pump (or Boost-A-Pump) and increase base fuel pressure to 60 PSI in order to keep my 4 injector setup.

 

[Black_Bullet]

That would truely suck to live that far from E85 (especially once use to running it)



I feel ya big time on that one..... Im so use to 23-24psi that i dont' know what's going to happen once i get use to 28psi on a daily basis I've only had the car to 28+psi a couple times before in it's life. I've never run that much at the strip because before i couldn't get traction past 19psi, so everything i run this year will be uncharted territory for my car..... I can't wait till may 23rd this year because i'm going to go down to KCIR and make my first ever passes at 24+psi (hoping to be able to pull out 28-30psi by then)

I need to get slicks first of all and then i'm hoping for some 1150's or bigger, but still haven't figured out what the minimum fuel system i can get by with to support them. Either way i'm sure hoping that this year on 24psi or more that i can break my previous best of 12.08 @ 117MPG on 19psi and get soemwhere in the 11's with a MPH of 120 or greater... Well, in one month i will have the answer, wish me luck!!!!!!! E85 eill be my "race fuel" I won't spend any money on leaded gas this year, if i can't do it on E85 it won't get done is the way i'm looking at it.

Good times for a fwd, I bet your car is sick on the highway.
But.... You need an AWD conversion my friend.

2.4L
T3-T67 (.70/.82)A/R
255HP intank Y'd together in parallel with a Bosch 044 inline

Maxed out the 1600cc's at 36 PSI or 66lbs/min of airflow. I drive it like this everyday of the week and it is an experience. I am looking to add a 3rd pump (or Boost-A-Pump) and increase base fuel pressure to 60 PSI in order to keep my 4 injector setup.

Isnt running too much base fuel pressure a bad thing.
I cant remember reasons regarding it, but I run 48psi base and i recall their being an issue going much higher.

 

[JayRolla]

2.4L
T3-T67 (.70/.82)A/R
255HP intank Y'd together in parallel with a Bosch 044 inline

Maxed out the 1600cc's at 36 PSI or 66lbs/min of airflow. I drive it like this everyday of the week and it is an experience. I am looking to add a 3rd pump (or Boost-A-Pump) and increase base fuel pressure to 60 PSI in order to keep my 4 injector setup.

Very nice setup, my buddy here is running a 2.0L w/T67 with the small A/R housing for better spool. He likes it over the .82 because on the old housing he hit 30psi then slowly up to 35psi. Now he said it hits 35psi right away with the small housing. But it must be from the 2 liter. I love his car from 5000rpm-9000rpm theres no lookin back. He even ran a hyabusa one day from 40mph to 150mph.

 

[JeffGST]

Isnt running too much base fuel pressure a bad thing.
I cant remember reasons regarding it, but I run 48psi base and i recall their being an issue going much higher.

It's not a bad thing, depending on your setup.

Higher Fuel Pressure makes your injectors larger
Higher Fuel Pressure makes your pump(s) smaller

So if you have some room with your injectors, but you have no extra volume from your pump, you want to lower fuel pressure to get the max out of the pump. In my case, I maxed out my injectors, so I need to raise fuel pressure to make the 1600's flow more like 1800's. The problem is that the 2 pumps are also maxed out, unless I either modify the voltage to 17V or if I add a 3rd pump.

 

[turboglenn]

It's not a bad thing, depending on your setup.

Higher Fuel Pressure makes your injectors larger
Higher Fuel Pressure makes your pump(s) smaller

So if you have some room with your injectors, but you have no extra volume from your pump, you want to lower fuel pressure to get the max out of the pump. In my case, I maxed out my injectors, so I need to raise fuel pressure to make the 1600's flow more like 1800's. The problem is that the 2 pumps are also maxed out, unless I either modify the voltage to 17V or if I add a 3rd pump.

What kinda HP numbers are you putting out with teh 1600's maxed out?

 

[gsxtasy]

It's not a bad thing, depending on your setup.

Higher Fuel Pressure makes your injectors larger
Higher Fuel Pressure makes your pump(s) smaller

So if you have some room with your injectors, but you have no extra volume from your pump, you want to lower fuel pressure to get the max out of the pump. In my case, I maxed out my injectors, so I need to raise fuel pressure to make the 1600's flow more like 1800's. The problem is that the 2 pumps are also maxed out, unless I either modify the voltage to 17V or if I add a 3rd pump.

When running higher fuel pressure, what do you have to compensate for, if anything? Such as global fuel adjustments, will it throw fuel trims off a bunch?

 

[bastard dsm]

must be making close to 700+hp to max out the 1600's on e85.

 

[turboglenn]

When running higher fuel pressure, what do you have to compensate for, if anything? Such as global fuel adjustments, will it throw fuel trims off a bunch?

A small global adjustment is usually all that's required when changing BFP. Even with a small global adjustment or even none at all, the closed loop can usually take care of any changes in idle and cruise fueling

My AFPR i still acting up and i just raised BFP from 38 to 44 in an effort to gain just a tad bit of extra flow from the injectors during WOT. I haven't changed anythign else mainly because i don't have "fuel trims" to have to match up, i only go from how many % increase or decrease the closed loop has to perform in order to keep the AFR's at 14.7 - 15:1 at idle and cruise. I was around -3 to 5 % fuel trimming to get damn near perfect closed loop function, but after raising the FP i am now seeing 5 - 7% trimming taking place. As long as it stays under 10% when cruising, i consider it to be good to go.

By allowing the extra fueling to be done in the trimming, i spend less time trying to get the air temp trims perfect (which is harder to do with each larger injector size)

 

[JeffGST]

When running higher fuel pressure, what do you have to compensate for, if anything? Such as global fuel adjustments, will it throw fuel trims off a bunch?

Just like MAF calibration, there is a formula to precisely calculate the appropriate change in Global with increased injector flow.

SQRT (New Fuel Pressure/Previous Fuel Pressure) * The injector flow.

Example:
1000cc injectors
Previous Fuel Pressure = 43 PSI
New Fuel Pressure = 50 PSI

SQRT of (50/43) = 1.078
1.078 * 1000cc = 1078cc flow.

Then just use the normal Global forumla to calculate the change needed in Global.

What kinda HP numbers are you putting out with teh 1600's maxed out?

must be making close to 700+hp to max out the 1600's on e85.

I really don't know. I haven't been on the dyno lately. My 80-100MPH is around 1.2-1.3 seconds now with the new ignition amplifier I installed last week. I finally got rid of the constant misfires under boost.

 

[bastarddsm]

quick question what sort of mileage are you guys getting on E85. I'm considering doing it soon. my car is getting 29 right now, what should I expect after the swap?

also how big of injectors would you guys recomend for a China GT on E85 and fuel pump. I have a 190 right now.

sorry to sort of hijack the thread, but i felt it was pertinant

 

[Ajax]

Got about 23miles to the gallon last time.

 

[TSIfreek]

Just like MAF calibration, there is a formula to precisely calculate the appropriate change in Global with increased injector flow.

SQRT (New Fuel Pressure/Previous Fuel Pressure) * The injector flow.

Example:
1000cc injectors
Previous Fuel Pressure = 43 PSI
New Fuel Pressure = 50 PSI

SQRT of (50/43) = 1.078
1.078 * 1000cc = 1078cc flow.

Then just use the normal Global forumla to calculate the change needed in Global.




I really don't know. I haven't been on the dyno lately. My 80-100MPH is around 1.2-1.3 seconds now with the new ignition amplifier I installed last week. I finally got rid of the constant misfires under boost.

Jeff has a doctorate in dsm link fuel tuning. He is a guy worth listening to.

 

[JayRolla]

quick question what sort of mileage are you guys getting on E85. I'm considering doing it soon. my car is getting 29 right now, what should I expect after the swap?

also how big of injectors would you guys recomend for a China GT on E85 and fuel pump. I have a 190 right now.

sorry to sort of hijack the thread, but i felt it was pertinant

I would go with 950's at smallest, im thinking of 1150's or larger for head room on my setup. Also a 255lph should be enough for you goal. My brother sees a little over 200miles per tank on e85.

 

[GST95]

I just wanted to throw in my .02
Ive been using e85 for about a year now. I havent tried to push it very hard yet because i dont have my wideband hooked up yet(just got it this winter). I had been running 25psi on a 50/50 mix of 93 and 110, so i left it there. I added about 25-30% more fuel to stop the stumbling and bucking. I didnt have anybody to guide me on what i should do, so i just decided to try it. I will not go back to pump gas. 93 was 3.59 here last week and e85 was 2.59.

As far as fuel milage, before i would get around 22 average. Now i get around 18-19 depending on how i drive. With those numbers it cost me $.163/mile to drive my car on 93, but only $.144/mile on e85. Ive been trying to convince everybody i know to try it, but nobody has yet.

BTW, I noticed magnus is selling 2200cc injectors. They are a little pricy, but has anybody tried them yet? I have 1000cc injectors now, but will need to upgrade soon i think.

 

[turboglenn]

So last night i decided to make my knock sensor more sensitive since the E85 reduces it so much i figured i could get a little more in depth on study'ing it. Well, in order to see knock i had to set my knock sensor so sensitive that tonight at off throttle waiting for the motor to decelerate, i saw 7* of itming being pulled on idle coniditons, this tells me i'm too sensitive at this point and wioll have to dial some back out. But over all a good thing to see on this e85 just to let me know that i'm not hiding anything from the ECU.

I think i'm going to put some new rod bearings in this coming week just to freshen the bottom end up a little before i go to 30psi and start pushign things. I've lost about 2MPG total in my switch to e85, but seeing how it lets me run even leaner without harmful side effects i believe i might be able to get all my mileage back through running closed loop at around 16-17:1

I will keep the post updated!

 

[bastarddsm]

be carefull with that. I remember reading about some university doing research on converting a chevy malibu to E85 and smoking the motor becuase it ran too lean in closed loop.

Hopefully i'll be on the juice after my awd conversion I'll be using a eprom ecu with a custom burned chip hopefully. I would like to be able to have a pot hooked to the egr input and control the global injector compenstion, and maybe globally add subtract a few degrees of timing in case i cant find E85 and i'm empty.

also I plan on building a buffer for the nbo2 sensor so i can bias it up a bit so it always reads .01-.1V higher than actual so my computer thinks its rich and leans it out a bit so I can get some better milage.


what do you guys run for compression on the juice?

 

[JayRolla]

The guys I know here love high compression. My buddy is building a MPI Conquest with e85 and we wanted 10.1:1 or higher but they wouldnt make them so we settled with 9.0:1. When I build my new e85 motor I want to build a destroker with 10.0:1 or higher compression.

 

[turboglenn]

Well, I'm getting my 1000's tonight if my friend would hurry his ass over to get borrow my small compressor so i can run to my other friends house and get the 1000's and possibly a higher wastegate spring too.

I'll get them in and dialed in tomorrow and report back. If I can make anywhere near 30psi and have enough injector i'm tuning for everything she's got and then going back to the dyno!!!! Praying for an excess of 425 to the wheels.

I need to order that filter and line from extremepsi and hope that the 255 will keep up with the 1000's at 100% IDC if needed ... if all is well i'll b buying slicks this coming 2 weeks.

 

[JayRolla]

Might as well buy a 255lph inline for $100 and through it in. Easy, cheap and you wont run out of fuel.

 

[turboglenn]

Just got em ...Woohoooo... putting them in along with a new OEM filter tomorrow and ordering teh upgraded filter and feed line kit. AS long as the pump can keep up the only thing i'm going to need for the races in KC on the 23rd is a set of slicks!!!!

11's here i come!!!!!

 

[turboglenn]

Might as well buy a 255lph inline for $100 and through it in. Easy, cheap and you wont run out of fuel.

I know it's better to run them parralel, but how much flow do you gain with them inline of each other?

 

[turbosax2]

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[gsxtasy]

Thats some good info.^^ Why do the twin intanks fall off so much. At 80psi(50bfp+30psi boost) my intank feeding my inline is only 30lph less, but still 80lph more than a single intank.WTF