Next Test: E85 flex fuel vehicle via fuel trimming

[JeffGST]

Thats some good info.^^ Why do the twin intanks fall off so much. At 80psi(50bfp+30psi boost) my intank feeding my inline is only 30lph less, but still 80lph more than a single intank.WTF

That is the purpose of the "Intank Feeding a Inline" pump. This pump setup combats the drop in fuel pressure from just a single intank pump.

The in-tank pump is just a feeder pump that operates under no pressure. Not only is it just there to keep fuel at the inlet of the inline pump, but it also provides a "boost effect" for the inline pump.

The Dual Intank pump setup suffers from the same problem at high fuel pressures as the single intank pump because they are plumbed in parallel. Each pump is working and pumping volume on it's own. There is no "boost effect" in this parallel scenario and fuel pressure will drop as if they were separate, individual intank fuel pumps. The 255HP intank bleeds off pressure once it is beyond 80 PSI

But, dual intank 255's still provide MUCH MORE VOLUME than a 255HP feeding a Bosch 044, regardless of this pressure drop. This is true as long as you keep fuel pressures below 80 PSI.

 

[gsxtasy]

That is the purpose of the "Intank Feeding a Inline" pump. This pump setup combats the drop in fuel pressure from just a single intank pump.

The in-tank pump is just a feeder pump that operates under no pressure. Not only is it just there to keep fuel at the inlet of the inline pump, but it also provides a "boost effect" for the inline pump.

The Dual Intank pump setup suffers from the same problem at high fuel pressures as the single intank pump because they are plumbed in parallel. Each pump is working and pumping volume on it's own. There is no "boost effect" in this parallel scenario and fuel pressure will drop as if they were separate, individual intank fuel pumps. The 255HP intank bleeds off pressure once it is beyond 80 PSI

But, dual intank 255's still provide MUCH MORE VOLUME than a 255HP feeding a Bosch 044, regardless of this pressure drop. This is true as long as you keep fuel pressures below 80 PSI.

Thanks Jeff, makes sense. I was waiting for you to chime in.

 

[turboglenn]

Well, I'm hitting 100% IDC on the thousands as well I ordered a new filter and feed line kit from the filter to rail today. But now I'm starting to think it might be the pump. It's been in the car for 8-9 years now and i know it hold 80-85psi but somehow still right at 6700 RPM I'm losing fuel to the point where i have to crank the injectors up

What should i do on a pump? I'm kinda broke so i either have to decide on getting a new 255hp to replace the one I'm running or run an in-line pump along with the existing one... What are my options for a pump that should keep the 1000's full of fuel at near 100% IDC??? REMEMBER I"M ON A BUDGET!!

Like i said, hoping i can either replace the 255 with a new one alone or just add a 255-in-line to it...thoughts?

 

[Black_Bullet]

Well, I'm hitting 100% IDC on the thousands as well I ordered a new filter and feed line kit from the filter to rail today. But now I'm starting to think it might be the pump. It's been in the car for 8-9 years now and i know it hold 80-85psi but somehow still right at 6700 RPM I'm losing fuel to the point where i have to crank the injectors up

What should i do on a pump? I'm kinda broke so i either have to decide on getting a new 255hp to replace the one I'm running or run an in-line pump along with the existing one... What are my options for a pump that should keep the 1000's full of fuel at near 100% IDC??? REMEMBER I"M ON A BUDGET!!

Like i said, hoping i can either replace the 255 with a new one alone or just add a 255-in-line to it...thoughts?

Whats your current AFR.
maybe you can squeeze a little more out of leaning it out some depending how aggressive your tune already is. You have zero boost leaks correct? That could affect Idcs as well.

If it ISNT your pump then according to Jeffs info Id raise the fuel pressure up some to drop them IDC's.

Man fwd needs a lot of effort to run into the 11s huh,
I dont see why you wont be able to get your time now with slicks without pushing it
to the injectors limits.

 

[turboglenn]

Whats your current AFR.
maybe you can squeeze a little more out of leaning it out some depending how aggressive your tune already is. You have zero boost leaks correct? That could affect Idcs as well.

If it ISNT your pump then according to Jeffs info Id raise the fuel pressure up some to drop them IDC's.

Man fwd needs a lot of effort to run into the 11s huh,
I dont see why you wont be able to get your time now with slicks without pushing it
to the injectors limits.

Currently i run the AFR at 11.3 - 11.5, but when i hit 6500 RPM the AFR steadily dives to about 13.4:1 by redline at 100% IDC. Until then IDC's are in the 70 - 75% range. There's NO WAY i should be maxing out 1000's because my puslewidth at peak VE would still fall within the 80% or less range up until 8k RPM

I'm afraid it is the pump, but i don't have much money to spend and that's why i made the post asking for a suggestion to either get a new single 255 in tank or a 255 in line and add it to my current setup...which one will support the 1000's to 100% IDC's without falling off?

FWD takes a lot of effort to run 11's... I have the MPH to be deep in the 11's on only 19 - 20 psi... The reason i want to have teh car pushing as hard as it can by the 23rd is because when i break 11's i'll be stopped from running because i have no cage, so i want that first dip into them to be a deep one and i want slicks to go with my LSD ...11.5's would satisfy me for a couple years at least

 

[JeffGST]

I am going to agree with you also that it is most likely the pump and not the injectors being maxed out. So this is the info we have to work with...

Assumption = The fuel pump is the limiting factor and the injectors could provide more fuel if the pump could provide more volume to the rail.

CHEAPEST Solution (Free) = Lower Base Fuel Pressure. If you lower base fuel pressure a few PSI and the AFR's richen up, then you have confirmed that it was the pump not being able to flow enough.

When I had the 255HP in-tank + 044 inline plumbed in series, I could not get the AFR's to go any richer once my 1600's went past 80% duty cycle. I ended up lowering base fuel pressure all the way down to 30 PSI. This allowed the pumps to provide more overall volume and richen things up.

BEST Solution = Kenne Bell Boost A Pump. It is a fuel pump voltage amplifier/regulator. It will allow you to run the 255HP at 17V, which will definately be enough to provide enough fuel for those 1000cc'.

 

[turboglenn]

Should i use the boost-a-pump on my current pump or get a new 255 and a boost-a-pump?

I will drop base fuel pressure tomorrow and see what happens

I have the filter and line coming to free up the banjo bolt restrictions, and now my goal is to max out my turbo as far as i can on 1000's and i'll be fine with that and still probably change to a 20g down teh road. I want the fastest spooling turbo that can make 425-450 horse on 28psi or less

 

[JeffGST]

Should i use the boost-a-pump on my current pump or get a new 255 and a boost-a-pump?

I will drop base fuel pressure tomorrow and see what happens

I have the filter and line coming to free up the banjo bolt restrictions, and now my goal is to max out my turbo as far as i can on 1000's and i'll be fine with that and still probably change to a 20g down teh road. I want the fastest spooling turbo that can make 425-450 horse on 28psi or less

Why change the 255HP Intank if it isn't broken? Just install the BAP on the current Walbro. I would try to drop base fuel pressure first before spending more money.

 

[turboglenn]

Why change the 255HP Intank if it isn't broken? Just install the BAP on the current Walbro. I would try to drop base fuel pressure first before spending more money.

what would flow more fuel, a 255 with a boost a pump or a 255 in tank with a 255 in line at the fuel filter area in ??
IMO dropping the fuel pressure to be able to run safe AFR's is too close to a bandage for me to feel comfortable running that way continuously.

The BAP seems to retail for 229 on Kenne Bell's site, couldn't i just add a 255 inline pump and keep my stock 2g fuel pressure instead? I just don't think i'm going to go from over 100% IDC to under 80% by just changing fuel pressure(but i could be wrong i guess) The reason i want everything to be so much lower is that i still haven't hit over 24psi of boost and i plan on going to 28 or more, so i need a good bit more injector pulse to get there on a safe AFR

I just feel for the 229 or less i could get a pump alone that would do the job Another thing that bothers me about teh BAP is that idon't want yet another box of gizmo's to find a place to mount in the car and then have even more wires yet to stuff inder the carpet..

so far i've got
a stand alone
J&S knock sensor
WI kit
MSD box
stereo
boost controller

that's a lot of extra wires under the carpet already, it's so bad now that you can feel them udner tehcarpet because the bundle is too big to run beside teh seat. Also, i am out of polaces to put electronic boxes, i litterally need to strip teh car adns tart over with all fresh wiring for it to be some what neat again.

 

[JeffGST]

I maxed out my 255 In-tank feeding a Bosch 044 in-line so quickly with E85. I just checked out my old logs, and I ran out of fuel flow at 72% duty cycle with the 1600's.

72% * 1600cc = 1152cc of flow

This is with base fuel pressure set very low at 32 PSI and 13.2V at full tilt. While off throttle voltage would jump back up to 13.6V since the load was taken away. You just have to remember that our stock electrical system is a POS. The alternator will heat up and instead of putting out 14.2V, it only provides 13.7V once heat soaked. This is a good simulation of what it is like while waiting in the staging lanes at the track.

I personally think you would benefit more with the BAP, instead of adding another 255 Inline in plumbed in series. If you decided to plumb the 255 Inline in Parallel instead, then I would say go for it.

It's just that the fuel volume increase from 13V to 17V is day and night. I know I can get a DSM to 700WHP on a single 255 Intank, with C16 and a BAP @ 17V.

 

[turboglenn]

From the pictures on Kenne Belles sight i can't tell how big the BAP is, but if i'm going to be looking for a new place to mount a gizmo box, i should probably find out.. got any pics of one next to anything for size comparison?

 

[JayRolla]

I would also like to see this thing. So your saying running the pump at 17v, would give more than adding another 255lph inline?

 

[gsxtasy]

Alright, since we're on the topic of BAP's. If you have pumps in series, would it be beneficial at all to boost the volts to the intank pump and the inline, or just the inline. Seeing as the intank pumps at 0 pressure anyways, would it help at all? *cough*Jeff?*cough*

 

[JeffGST]

I would also like to see this thing. So your saying running the pump at 17v, would give more than adding another 255lph inline?

See this is what you have to realize. The BIG problem is the DSM electrical system. When the alternator warms up, the output decreases dramatically. 13.6 at idle becomes 13.1V at full throttle. That drop in voltage is probably worth over 50WHP worth of fuel volume loss.

Now you add an additional inline pump, that also robs additional Amps away from the charging system, and now you have an even more significant drop in voltage. You gain with the additional pump and lose with the lower voltage. The area where the Intank + Inline shines is the 80+ PSI area, because the 255HP intank bleed off pressure once you get past 80 PSI. The 255 Inline does not do this.

From the pictures on Kenne Belles sight i can't tell how big the BAP is, but if i'm going to be looking for a new place to mount a gizmo box, i should probably find out.. got any pics of one next to anything for size comparison?

This is a picture of JonnyTsi's BAP installed in his 1G fuel assembly area. As you can see, it is small. With my fingers fully extended, I could probably cover the entire BAP with my hand. http://www.jeffgst.com/pics/bap.jpg

Alright, since we're on the topic of BAP's. If you have pumps in series, would it be beneficial at all to boost the volts to the intank pump and the inline, or just the inline. Seeing as the intank pumps at 0 pressure anyways, would it help at all? *cough*Jeff?*cough*

The BAP would go to the pump (or pumpS) that provide pressure to the rail. Since the intank pump is operating at 0 PSI, it flows a ton of fuel already. In fact, you could use a stock intank pump as a feeder pump for a Bosch 044. 17V to the Inline pump.

I've just rigged up an entire new fuel system for the Talon. I will be unveiling it soon once I plumb everything correctly. It's nice, and I know you guys will love it.

 

[Black_Bullet]

That BAP looks like a good investment even if you arent running e85.
TurboGlenn I think you should just try out the BAP, even if lowering the fuel pressure does work for you to bring back volume like Jeff recommended. Are you planning on upgrading the fuel rail,
at the level your trying to take it, that might be an overlooked option for e85 users as I believe that increases the volume of the flow as well.

Wow this thread is getting long...

 

[turboglenn]

That BAP looks like a good investment even if you arent running e85.
TurboGlenn I think you should just try out the BAP, even if lowering the fuel pressure does work for you to bring back volume like Jeff recommended. Are you planning on upgrading the fuel rail,
at the level your trying to take it, that might be an overlooked option for e85 users as I believe that increases the volume of the flow as well.

Wow this thread is getting long...

I'm hoping to not have to upgrade much so i will only upgrade the rail if it becomes a restriction. But i think i can get my 450 out of it since others ahve done well more than that on a stock rail.

I'm starting to think my pump is going bad and needs replaced either way. I lowered the fuel pressure but it still didn't make much of a difference in AFR at WOT past 6700rpm.

When my new filter and line get here, if it still falls short after that's installed i will probably get a new 255 and a BAP....

I'm starting to wonder if my pump isn't actually a 190, it came from a GN dual pump setup that i put in a friends car, then removed to do a Aeromitive external, i kept one of the pumps for my car. He said they were 255's but i'm starting to think that maybe my pump is a 190 or that it's a 255 but 10 years of abuse has worn it out to where it won't flow..

I won't know without taking the pump out, so if i'm going to do that i'll have a replacement pump in hand ready to go. If money allows i will get a BAP either way. I never mind buying stand alones, MSD boxes and things liek that since you can always take them to the "next car" if needed and it doestn' have to be the same model (i gues injectors and pumps fall in that category too)

So now3 the big question is ...Where can i get a BAP for a decently low price? Or is kenne bells website price as low as you can get it?
I'll order my next 255 from extreme psi, they seem to be good people

 

[Black_Bullet]

I'm hoping to not have to upgrade much so i will only upgrade the rail if it becomes a restriction. But i think i can get my 450 out of it since others ahve done well more than that on a stock rail.

I'm starting to think my pump is going bad and needs replaced either way. I lowered the fuel pressure but it still didn't make much of a difference in AFR at WOT past 6700rpm.

When my new filter and line get here, if it still falls short after that's installed i will probably get a new 255 and a BAP....

I'm starting to wonder if my pump isn't actually a 190, it came from a GN dual pump setup that i put in a friends car, then removed to do a Aeromitive external, i kept one of the pumps for my car. He said they were 255's but i'm starting to think that maybe my pump is a 190 or that it's a 255 but 10 years of abuse has worn it out to where it won't flow..

I won't know without taking the pump out, so if i'm going to do that i'll have a replacement pump in hand ready to go. If money allows i will get a BAP either way. I never mind buying stand alones, MSD boxes and things liek that since you can always take them to the "next car" if needed and it doestn' have to be the same model (i gues injectors and pumps fall in that category too)

So now3 the big question is ...Where can i get a BAP for a decently low price? Or is kenne bells website price as low as you can get it?
I'll order my next 255 from extreme psi, they seem to be good people

It being a 190lph would make sense.
And extreme psi is a good vender, Ive had good luck with ordering from those guys
there pretty quick.
Another quick thing to look at, make sure the fuel pump has a clean filter on it, and also make sure the clamps holding it to the lines arent loose because mines were and it was causing it to loose a little bit of pressure at the pump. The fuel was seeping past and falling back into the tank I believe, and it caused my 255lph to be extremely abnormally loud. Its still louder than most ive heard, but not as bad as it was. Mines is like 5 years old according to the original owner of the car. A new pump is a good idea.

 

[turboglenn]

I got my "fuelab" SS 10mmicron filter element and new -6 line from the filter to the rail today. I should have it on in a day or two and then we'll see if i've got enough fuel for my setup.. if not it's down to replacing the pump. I'm on 1000's now and they are running into 100% IDC at teh same time teh 720's were so i know it wasn't an injector issue.

As soon as i get the fuel problem squared away i'll be throwing on an 11:1 tune at 24psi and hitting the Dyno again to see what i'm making (or can make)

I will update things as they happen!

Black bullet.. You raise a good point. I should checkt eh lines/clamps at the pump and see what's up.. My 255 has always been super loud, but i think nothing of it. I'm so close to having everything setup perfect for the E85 that i'm gettign super excited I cna't wait till the issues are gone and it's back to romping down teh tarmac... i've still got to get the fuel fixed adn some slicks for the meet at KCIR this month...whoooohoo 11's here i come

 

[JayRolla]

What fuel pressure are you running again?

 

[turbo addict]

I'm having the same problem with my set up. I have my safc all the way up at 50+ in the upper rpm range and there is no way I am maxing out 1000cc injectors with a e316g and a 1.6 liter. I have fuel lines onthe way from extreme psi. should be here monday. I hope that fixes my problem. Let me know how yours goes.
Barnes

 

[turboglenn]

I'm having the same problem with my set up. I have my safc all the way up at 50+ in the upper rpm range and there is no way I am maxing out 1000cc injectors with a e316g and a 1.6 liter. I have fuel lines onthe way from extreme psi. should be here monday. I hope that fixes my problem. Let me know how yours goes.
Barnes

Will do, I've spent the last few days tuning 3 different AEM's on a couple of cars over in council bluffs, but im' hoping i can get my car done in the next day or so.

 

[turboglenn]

Well, i got it on (the filter and -6 feed line) and i'm still running out of fuel at 6700 RPM so it looks like it's time for a new 255HP and we'll go from there.
I"ll update as i make progress

 

[turbo addict]

Well, i got it on (the filter and -6 feed line) and i'm still running out of fuel at 6700 RPM so it looks like it's time for a new 255HP and we'll go from there.
I"ll update as i make progress

Glenn have you had any problems with your wideband. mine quit working and I was wondering if it could be e85 related> I don't think that it should!

 

[bastarddsm]

Have you thought of experimenting with a ffv sensor? the way megasquirt implemnts it should be pretty easy to implement on any system, provided you have an extra sensor input. I want to try and use one on my car with a factory ECU... we'll see how that works.

 

[turboglenn]

Glenn have you had any problems with your wideband. mine quit working and I was wondering if it could be e85 related> I don't think that it should!

NO issues yet, WBO2 sensors don't tend to last a whole long time anyway, anything from a huge bump in the road to running too rich for too long can kill them. and even the condensation in your exhaust from sitting overnight is one of the biggest killers of WBO2's

Have you thought of experimenting with a ffv sensor? the way megasquirt implemnts it should be pretty easy to implement on any system, provided you have an extra sensor input. I want to try and use one on my car with a factory ECU... we'll see how that works.

I've been interested in it, but i wasn't sure how it worked and also if the haltech would have an input that would allow for enough changes in fueling to make good use of it

EDIT: I should note some things i posted in some one elses thread.

Dropping the fuel pressure from 43 to 36 helped me get a little bit out of the danger zone of over 100% iDC. I'm now seeing 96% at most, but at least i know it's not just staying open the whole engine cycle.

Although lower pressure helped with IDC's i also should note that i'm only getting AFR's of 12.8 - 13:1 once i hit the top end where i am near 100% IDC.

Also before the new filter when teh pump was struggling to keep up i was getting knock in the midrange even at 11:1 AFR's (probably the pump falling short and then catching up repeatedly) i made a full 3rd gear pull in fairly warm (73*) and some what humid weather. I pulled 25psi and 23* timing all thwe way through at ~13:1 with no signs of knock. I did get a few mis-fires, but i'm thinking the plugs are taking a ish on me or that the wires are finally done for. I'm running an MSD DIS-2 and i'm not really sure it's helping at this point but there is at least a nice shiny red box under the hood to look cool

In less than 3k miles teh new stock filter was so clogged that i could barely blow through it even after letting it dry out. I cut it open and unrolled the paper element and the papaer was white on the edges, and everywhere else it looked like it had been rolled in mud :/ The fuel lab 10 micron SS filter is a very nice unit and the fit and finish are great on the kit. I recomend it to anyone needing at least a new filter and feed line from it to the rail (extreme psi is where i got it)