Next Test: E85 flex fuel vehicle via fuel trimming

[JayRolla]

600 WHP on E85 with 11.1 AFR's on a gasoline wideband? I cannot come close to even running that rich on my fuel system at that power level. I have 2 fuel pumps in parallel and 1600cc injectors at 100% IDC. I wish I could run that rich.

11.1 IMO is an extremely fat tune on Ethanol. No reason to run that pig rich unless you are just paranoid of engine failure. 11.5-12.0 is a good range to be in. Would you run C16 at 11.1 to 1 AFR's?? Probably not.

He made 550whp uncorrected and over 600whp corrected up here in the high altitude. They run 11.1 because they said its the safest tune that will make the most power on e85. Maybe leaner is ok but I thought he was seeing knock so I was saying to run richer to be safe.

Maybe its the altitude but even a few guys in denver run no leaner than 11.1 on e85.

 

[turboglenn]

HOw easy is E85 to get up there? I go to denver every year with my motorcycles to bloast the mountain roads... Maybe this year i'll use the DSM to pull the bike trailer *shrugs*

And yea, sorry i made it sound like i was seeing knock on the tune in that one post, it was just from the lean spot in the shift, and went away as soon as i let out and got back in it. I just mentioned that to agree that i as well have seen knock on e85.

 

[JayRolla]

We have about 9 locations in the springs alone and quite a few in denver. They are pretty much all the way down I-25 highway through colorado. Its very nice.

 

[UofACATS]

i have a friend that i run from time to time and 2nd,3rd gear we are even but as soon as we get into 4th i pull him hard hmmm. why is this?

OT: What car is it? My guess is that it's lighter than your car and makes less power. The weight difference at lower speeds helps make up the power difference, but in fourth gear power matters more than weight and you start to pull. /OT.



I've read lots of posts on how the stock lines/filter/rail and "large" injectors are all inadequate to run E85. Most of it is speculation/hearsay. (Just like all the info on how you need 30-35% more E85 than gasoline.) The posts from the people who have done the testing are out there, but even after reading those, I think it's still up to me to determine what my car needs to hit xxxWHP on E85. So far, all I know is that I like!

I'm in the middle of a bit of testing myself with stock lines, fuel filter, rail, evo9 pump, and FIC1600s on a FP3065. We'll see what airflow the stock setup will support with basic mods. When I find the limits, I have an 044 pump and -8AN feed waiting.

Keep up the tests, Glen, I love reading your threads.

 

[myblack98gst]

Why is everyone pushing so hard to run E85?? from everything I have read so far you have to have 1600cc injectors, aeromotive a1000 pump just to make 450whp. I am making damn near that on 93 octane with a safish tune.


if you want to up the power even more use methanol or race gas and be done with it.

 

[JayRolla]

30% extra fuel is needed, its not hearsay. It may be a little off but when we tuned my brothers car we added exactly 30% fuel and afr's where close to the same as they where on gas.

Remember e85 is 85% alcohol and that the stock fuel filter is paper. Not a good idea to run alcohol through paper for too long. Aluminum is also corrosive but will take a long time to cause any issues.

 

[turboglenn]

30% extra fuel is needed, its not hearsay. It may be a little off but when we tuned my brothers car we added exactly 30% fuel and afr's where close to the same as they where on gas.

Remember e85 is 85% alcohol and that the stock fuel filter is paper. Not a good idea to run alcohol through paper for too long. Aluminum is also corrosive but will take a long time to cause any issues.

Is there a kit to replace the filter and line from it to the rail? I've seen a kit with an AN fitting to replace the banjo bolt, but it retained the stock filter and used a nice earls line to the rail. I would like to have an aeromotive style filter and replace at least the line from filter to rail with some thing better flowing and longer lasting.

I also don't think people are having to push limits to make the power n E85. I think it's more of a case of being able to push limits with less chance for major failures than on pump gas. I am doing good on injector pulse width only start to hit 80-83% at 25psi!!!!! And that's on 720's that are old as dirt and probably need a good cleaning. Keep in mind that i am running my smallest meth nozzle on top of the tune or i would probably be at 90-95 IDC but everything is going so smooth, so much less knock, way more responsive especially once ht motor is spun up and doing it thing... It actually put my head in the seat a little today in third getting on the interstate at 1/2 throttle, the power came on so hard and fast that it caught me off guard enough to bounce my head off the seat what it hit (rare for my setup..it's usually very linear and screaming by the end of the gear)

The car is also a lot more RPM happy so to speak, winding up a lot faster and sounding a bit smoother as well. I attribute part of this to a tune and part o it to the fuel.

I"m going to open the "secondary nozzle" on my meth system and start running 28-30psi on the street very soon... I'm the king of wheel spin so bad now that as soon as I've caught traction and over driven my brakes and have to concentrate really hard on slowing down safely...definitely a brake upgrade is going to be needed if I'm going to keep running any more than 18psi on the street It's too unsafe honestly for me to push any further than it is until i at least upgrade fluids and change to some porterfield pads or something similar (not sure if they make them for our cars, but that's what we use on our Porsche track cars and i love em)

 

[2gGSX]

Why is everyone pushing so hard to run E85?? from everything I have read so far you have to have 1600cc injectors, aeromotive a1000 pump just to make 450whp. I am making damn near that on 93 octane with a safish tune.


if you want to up the power even more use methanol or race gas and be done with it.

If you're talking about straight ethanol, then you need even more injector than E85 or E98. Race gas is by far the best to use IMO, especially if it's an oxygenated fuel like Q16 or something. However, you definitely do not need 1600cc and a Bosch 044 (the A1000 is not preferable due to significant flow drop at high pressures).

30% extra fuel is needed, its not hearsay. It may be a little off but when we tuned my brothers car we added exactly 30% fuel and afr's where close to the same as they where on gas.

Remember e85 is 85% alcohol and that the stock fuel filter is paper. Not a good idea to run alcohol through paper for too long. Aluminum is also corrosive but will take a long time to cause any issues.

I'm finding that it's a closer to 25%, not 30%, but that could just be on my own system. So, the 30% extra fuel thing is just an ESTIMATION but by no means definitive.

Glen, there are kits sold by a bunch of vendors that replace the line from pump to rail. I know for sure that SBR sells kits.

 

[gsxtasy]

I
I'm finding that it's a closer to 25%, not 30%, but that could just be on my own system. So, the 30% extra fuel thing is just an ESTIMATION but by no means definitive.

Glen, there are kits sold by a bunch of vendors that replace the line from pump to rail. I know for sure that SBR sells kits.

I agree, i think it varies from setup to setup, oh mine I've only had to add right around 20%.

Glenn here is a kit from extreme that replaces the filter and line to the rail:

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - Fuel Lab "818" Complete Fuel Feed Upgrade Kit: Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99

 

[JeffGST]

Why is everyone pushing so hard to run E85?? from everything I have read so far you have to have 1600cc injectors, aeromotive a1000 pump just to make 450whp. I am making damn near that on 93 octane with a safish tune.


if you want to up the power even more use methanol or race gas and be done with it.

It's obvious that you have never used it. Once you do, you will know why you would never go back to 93 octane again. As I said above in another post, I make more WHP with E85 than I do with C16 at the same boost level.

C16 = $13 a gallon
E85 = $3 a gallon (And at my local pump)

Try to run 35-40 PSI everyday with 93 octane and no meth injection. Not going to happen.

 

[JayRolla]

If you're talking about straight ethanol, then you need even more injector than E85 or E98. Race gas is by far the best to use IMO, especially if it's an oxygenated fuel like Q16 or something. However, you definitely do not need 1600cc and a Bosch 044 (the A1000 is not preferable due to significant flow drop at high pressures).



I'm finding that it's a closer to 25%, not 30%, but that could just be on my own system. So, the 30% extra fuel thing is just an ESTIMATION but by no means definitive.

Glen, there are kits sold by a bunch of vendors that replace the line from pump to rail. I know for sure that SBR sells kits.

Yea its just a rough estimation but in most cases its around 30%.

Some of the other good things about e85 is how well it cleans the motor. The stuff burns so clean. I saw a link about some guys that ran two 2000 chevy tahoes for over 100,000 miles on stock motors with no issues. They pulled the motors apart and they looked brand new. I guess in N/A vehicles the afr going off doesnt hurt as bad or the ecu adjusts a lot better than ours.

 

[turboglenn]

Thanks for the link, gsxtacy, that's exactly what i was looking for! AS for amounts of fuel increase i'm sitting around 24-27% over my pump gas values everywhere. I'm sure every car will be slightly different just as they are on pump gas.

Here in nebraska the BP 92 is our highest octane and even it's reformulated crap IMO. That runs us 3.50 a gallon right now and they just passes a local bill to increase gas tax by 26 cents or more a gallon (putting us near 3.75 p/gl) Our E85 prices are around 2.70 p/gl and in iowa it's only about 2.40 p/gl (and Ajax on here said he gets it around 2.20 p/gal up his way) so it's definitly cheaper and way better... as some one else said, you can't even compare it to leaded race gas, it's in a class all it's own. If my AFR's ever went 14:1 on C16 under boost i would knock immediately, this didn't the one time i accidentally hit that lean in 3rd gear.

 

[JayRolla]

We are lucky its only about $2.19/g right now, it was under $2 last time I was in Fort Collins.

 

[turboglenn]

WOW, i would love for it to drop that low around here. So far i've gotten 88 miles out of a the first quarter and a 1/8th tank through it. Not too far from where i was at on pump honestly. My car has never gotten great mileage becaus ei wont' sacrifice the response i get from running a tad rich to ge the better MPG.

 

[2gGSX]

Also to note, the Fuel Lab filter is capable of running a 6 micron, 10 micron, 35 micron, and 75 micron filter elements (glass, nitrocellulose paper, stainless steel, stainless steel, respectively). The 10 micron paper element is noted to be ethanol-safe.

 

[JrCRXHF]

Also to note, the Fuel Lab filter is capable of running a 6 micron, 10 micron, 35 micron, and 75 micron filter elements (glass, nitrocellulose paper, stainless steel, stainless steel, respectively). The 10 micron paper element is noted to be ethanol-safe.

Glass and Stainless Steel are also ethanol safe materials.

 

[bastard dsm]

from my pump tune to e85 tune its a 10% global change on my car and on my friends galant also.
i made 445hp on 750's and 518hp on 850's on my friends galant at 26psi with both cars at 11.5 a/f's.

 

[matthewdesigns]

It's too unsafe honestly for me to push any further than it is until i at least upgrade fluids and change to some porterfield pads or something similar (not sure if they make them for our cars, but that's what we use on our Porsche track cars and i love em)

I have Porterfield R4-S pads on the front of my 2g AWD. RRE sells them...$100/front pads. R4-E's also available, but those are pure track pads (you probably know that, though).

 

[turboglenn]

Cool, i'm going to put in an order ASAP on some R4-S pads... WE buy enough of them i should be able to get a set for 60 bucks or so (what we pay for 944/968 pads anyway..911 and 930's are about 100 our cost though)

 

[Black_Bullet]

Theres a e85 thread going on over in Dsmtalk.
This link was posted in there and iwas reading it and found some good info in it.

E85 fuel FAQ - Engine Management & Tuning - NASIOC

 

[turboglenn]

That's a pretty good read so far, thanks for posting it up.

 

[bastarddsm]

heres a random thought.. couldn't we put an extra injector in the uicp that was roughly the size of one of our current injectors and trigger it off the other injectors. that way you could turn it off to go back to pump gas. i understand that it wouldn't be close to optimized for either, but it would be a down and dirty method to run e85

 

[krummel21]

What size injectors do you guys run with a fp3065 or similar turbo?

 

[gsxtasy]

What size injectors do you guys run with a fp3065 or similar turbo?

1600's

 

[JeffGST]

heres a random thought.. couldn't we put an extra injector in the uicp that was roughly the size of one of our current injectors and trigger it off the other injectors. that way you could turn it off to go back to pump gas. i understand that it wouldn't be close to optimized for either, but it would be a down and dirty method to run e85

The idea is good. In theory it should work perfectly.

Gasoline = 4 Injectors & 4 Cylinders
Ethanol85% = 5 Injectors & 4 Cylinders

1 Extra Injector / 5 Total Injectors = 20% Added Fuel

It's just around the amounted needed to operate a E85 vehicle at optimal AFR's. How do you rig up the fuel line to the injector at the IC pipe. The fuel must come from the main fuel line, since it must be at the same fuel pressure as the other 4 injectors. Mounting hardware?