Next Test: E85 flex fuel vehicle via fuel trimming

[kittay]

I'm either going to be running the 950's or 1000 injectors with my 50 trim. I'm interested to see the IDC.
I was at about 80% IDC on 750s and the 16g at 19-22 psi
But you should hit 11's with good driving. Do you happen to have slicks, or someone that would let you borrow for the fronts? That may be something to look into if you don't.

E85 is def fun! I noticed a big difference running it with the 16g and the 60-1.. spools quicker and hits harder
I haven't had any issues and I'm running a basic setup with 255 and 750s on the 16g car. But as far as lines and stuff, I've ran it for almost 2 years now and no issues as far as reliability goes.
The only down side is changing your oil and fuel filter more often.. it's a good idea to do both about every 2k miles

 

[Black_Bullet]

Alot of people think they need a bigger injector then they really do.. What turbo are you running?

I'm using Tuner Pro RT, Ostrich. Moates.net has them

Good stuff

gsxtacy...what are you running for pump and injectors? I'd almost rather go extgernal if it's roughly the same cost since i can weld in a bottom sump myself if the cost of the ext. pump is similar to a hangar and extra 255 internal. I need to see if the external aeromotive pumps are good for alcohol use ( i imagine they are but never asked the rep )

kittay...Im running a t3/4 hybrid to4e 57 trim compressor, 720 injectors, 255HP wally with an aeromitive afpr and Haltech EMS, so no chips or emulators for me i have full control


If i dont' break 11's this year i'm selling the car but keeping the EMS, J&S, Turbo/Wastegate setup and water injection and buying a damn honda . Seriously, In one week I built a ghetto turbo CRX with a greddy 18g with a ghetto adapter plate, RC engineering 550's (my old ones) an SAFC and some slicks and it went 11.45 with a blown first gear launching in 2nd..and that's not a joke

Seriously, i love my eclipse, but FWD 2g's are so damn hard to make pull a decent 1/4 mile time that i'm sick of this heavy pile of ish. If it weren't for the 4g63 (which i love as a motor) and the nice look of the car, i would already be in a honda. DSM's are nice, but all you gotta do is buy a turbo, manifold, management, get the block done right and buy a set of cams+ supoprting mods to have a 10 second honda.. not to mention you can get into most of the lighter fast honda with less than 1500 bucks..okay enough or i'm running a for sale add tomorrow ...... you've got to buy about 7x the amount of parts to make a 2g eclipse as quick. Lucky for me in this town no one knows how to tune their hondas and i can still smoke all but the one's i've tuned pretty much (save for about 2 or 3 another shop built )

Dont get a Honduhh, get a GSX, or do a conversion on yours....
Come on man, i thought you knew about the all wheel drive option

 

[turboglenn]

Dont get a Honduhh, get a GSX, or do a conversion on yours....
Come on man, i thought you knew about the all wheel drive option

I've ruled that out due to buying a 3k dollar FWD tranny a few motnsh ago I think i'd get kicked out of my house if I really bought a hoduh. My old lady would skin me a live and carve "traitor" in my back with a kitchen knife (hell she almost does it even when i work on the mitsubishi)

If i could get a good penny out of this trans some how i might consider it though

 

[turboglenn]

I'm either going to be running the 950's or 1000 injectors with my 50 trim. I'm interested to see the IDC.
I was at about 80% IDC on 750s and the 16g at 19-22 psi
But you should hit 11's with good driving. Do you happen to have slicks, or someone that would let you borrow for the fronts? That may be something to look into if you don't.

E85 is def fun! I noticed a big difference running it with the 16g and the 60-1.. spools quicker and hits harder
I haven't had any issues and I'm running a basic setup with 255 and 750s on the 16g car. But as far as lines and stuff, I've ran it for almost 2 years now and no issues as far as reliability goes.
The only down side is changing your oil and fuel filter more often.. it's a good idea to do both about every 2k miles

I wore my slicks out, but as soon as i'm back to work i'm getting a new set! M&H this year, to hell with mckey thompson's spin-n-grip kiddy tires.. I was pulling 1.7 -1.8 60' times on M&H's, went to Mickeys and only pulling 1.9's and one high 1.8xx since.

With as much as i've done to my car this year. Tranny (TRE W/ Quiaffe) 264/272 cams, water injection and a couple thousand on a ton of other little things like gaskets, ball joints, bearings, suspension (tokico blues with hyperco 375/250 springs) I've got to hit 11's this year or i really will probably sell the car or gut it,it really depends on what kind of offers i get on the car.

 

[bastard dsm]

Here is a pic of what my AFR's looked like on the dyno. RIDICULOUSLY LEAN, and no knock and just a trace of misfires. There was no way I was going to leave the tune like that, but at that time a year back, I didn't have the fuel system I have now.

Remember this is Ethanol and using a Gasoline Wideband.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

why are you doing 3rd gear pulls?

 

[turboglenn]

My Talon is a "Flex Fuel Car" without the sensor. I just back the dial down or up 4 clicks and I can put whatever fuel I want.

This is exactly what i'm going for with the way i trick the ECU into going back to pump being a little different. I have a fuel trim knob that can do +/- 50%, but i'm hoping to do it by triggering one of the temp sensors to the extreme end of it's scale where i will have modifications to the base map that should increase fuel flow and timing enough to make good use of the E85. Since it seems a lot less picky than pump gas about it's AFR's, this makes me a little more confident that i can just take or add fuel globally to run the ethanol.

 

[JeffGST]

why are you doing 3rd gear pulls?

Why not? What's wrong with 3rd gear?

 

[Black_Bullet]

Why not? What's wrong with 3rd gear?

Thats what i want to know
Ive always thought 3rd was the accurate gear to use.
The one time ive been to the dyno we used 3rd.
Is fourth the ideal dyno gear?

 

[turboglenn]

I've always used third for almost every car i've tuned on a dyno, and i use hird and 4th for street tuning.

The only time i've used fourth is when we get a hard hitting turbo that causes wheel spin and use fourth to mellow it out a little

 

[turboglenn]

Unless i'm reading something wrong "bastard_dsm" is making 445 whp on 750 injectors and a wally 255 on E85. If anywhere near 400 - 425 is possible with my injectors (even at 100% IDC) i'm all down for it and will fill up on e85 tomorrow!!!!!!!

I Pm'ed him in hopes of gaining some info on his setup and to see if i had mis-understood his post about the FP18g-sl2 turbo in the turbo forum.

One thing i need to know is, how does the stock oxygen sensor react for closed loop fueling on E85? Will i have to change the target voltage for closed loop at all?

 

[turboglenn]

Hmm.. just had a brain fart or storm (not sure which ) Being that i have the meth injection system i could add fuel through it for when i start to run out of injector on E85. It would be methanol, but it should still hold me in a safe AFR!!!!! I don't know why i didn't think of this already. But that tankfull of E85 might come sooner than i was thinking. I just have a half tank of 92 to burn through and i'll be set! Of course, i just leaned out my entire map so it may take a few extra miles to do

 

[Black_Bullet]

Hmm.. just had a brain fart or storm (not sure which ) Being that i have the meth injection system i could add fuel through it for when i start to run out of injector on E85. It would be methanol, but it should still hold me in a safe AFR!!!!! I don't know why i didn't think of this already. But that tankfull of E85 might come sooner than i was thinking. I just have a half tank of 92 to burn through and i'll be set! Of course, i just leaned out my entire map so it may take a few extra miles to do

I been thought you shouldve done that

 

[Ajax]

Well Glenn better figure out where it's at in Omaha bc that first one we stopped at did not even know what E-85 was I had to explain!! And then he was like "Well I know you can get it in Iowa" and I just wanted to say no shit sherlock why do you think I'm here? Kinda funny

 

[turboglenn]

Well Glenn better figure out where it's at in Omaha bc that first one we stopped at did not even know what E-85 was I had to explain!! And then he was like "Well I know you can get it in Iowa" and I just wanted to say no shit sherlock why do you think I'm here? Kinda funny

It's so ironic and completely baffles me as well. People look at me like i'm stupid when i ask about it, and everyone outside nebraska thinks i'm just not looking if i can't find it.

That's why I am focusing on it being a "flex fuel vehicle" meaning i can use whatever of the 2 i can get safely

 

[JayRolla]

My brother is maxing out 1000cc injectors on a 16g at 26psi falling to 20psi at redline. So he is actually only seeing 20psi at high rpms and if he had better boost control I believe he would need larger injectors.
You will need larger than 1150's for that turbo you are running.

Cold starts are not an issue and we have below zero temps up here, its harder but the car does start every time.

 

[turboglenn]

^^^ that's weird to max them out that soon on a 16g. What is his target AFR while wide open? I would think 1000's would be good for more than just maxing out a 16g (even if it's a big EVO one) Supposedly bastard_dsm was running 750's and made 445whp on an 18gsl2 on E85.

If i run an extra 1000cc's of alky through the water injection system, i should be able to roughly duplicate the flow of having 1000's in the car to start with, but leaves me no room to grow. If i can get away with 12:1 or 12.5:1 AFR's and force the injectors up towards 90-96% IDC, i THINK i should be able to make enough fuel flow to keep with the horsepower levels at which i'm confined by myt setup's "hard parts"

I"m still waiting to hear back from bastard dsm to see what his thoughts are on my setup. Hell no one believed you could do a lot of things people have succesfully done, maybe bastard dsm thinks along the same lines as me and that's to max things out before upgrading at least just to see what you can do, and i'm hoping he considers the setup at least "good enough" from his experiences, that will push me into this first tank or decide if i have to wait on bigger injectors.

 

[JeffGST]

Stop trying to compare your setup with others and just siphon out the unleaded fuel and pump in the E85 now. You will love it, I guarantee it. Only you will know what the WHP limit is to your specific fuel system.

The Front O2 measures Oxygen, not fuel content. Therefore it will maintain normal Stoich conditions regardless of the fuel. On gasoline it will target 14.7 and on E85 it will target 9.7.

 

[Black_Bullet]

It's so ironic and completely baffles me as well. People look at me like i'm stupid when i ask about it, and everyone outside nebraska thinks i'm just not looking if i can't find it.

That's why I am focusing on it being a "flex fuel vehicle" meaning i can use whatever of
the 2 i can get safely

They have sites that tell you what pumps carry it.
National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition

What sucks for me is according to that site theres only 4 public E85 stations in FL.
Im in the middle of the state and the nearest pump to me is Miami, or all the way North as Jacksonville or Tallahassee. Hopefully more and more pumps will start carrying this stuff in my area.

My brother is maxing out 1000cc injectors on a 16g at 26psi falling to 20psi at redline. So he is actually only seeing 20psi at high rpms and if he had better boost control I believe he would need larger injectors.
You will need larger than 1150's for that turbo you are running.

Cold starts are not an issue and we have below zero temps up here, its harder but the car does start every time.

Im surprised to hear your brother is maxing out his 1000cc on a 16g.
Most ppl say that 850s and a 255lph will do for a 16gs flow potiential.
Doesnt make sense, if e85 only consumes like 30-35 % more gas, how the hell is it causing the need for such humongous fuel requirements over petrolium.
How do you go from being able to get away with 550s on a big 16g with 93 octane to needing 850cc + on the E85? Maybe im missing something here.

JayRolla, does your brother even have a evo316g or regular?
If hes only seeing 20psi to redline he has a lot of power still left in it.
Hell im seeing 20 psi to redline with 24 psi spikes.

The people ive spoken with who are making the most power on 16gs are managing
to get them to hold 23-24psi all the way to 7-7500 rpm which is a big difference.

 

[2gGSX]

Even factoring in the 1g's lower base fuel pressure, I don't see him maxing out 927cc/min of injector on a 16g. Hell I'm at 80% IDC with 950's on straight E70 flowing 45-46 lbs/min.

 

[turboglenn]

2gGsx...I might have missed it but what pump are you running and what size lines? 44-46lbs/min will be my max goal and i'd like to use the smallest injector that will do the job at 80% IDC, so i think from your post above i'm going with 1000's from FIC just because they're cheap enough, but i need to figure out the cost of the rest of the fuel system if i need to upgrade the pump or lines for that amount of power.

I'd love to hear that you're getting away with just the 255HP and 950's listed in your profile on just those through stock lines and filter. I'm on a budget this time so i have to pick and choose carefully

 

[2gGSX]

Yep, stock lines and filter.

 

[kittay]

My brother is maxing out 1000cc injectors on a 16g at 26psi falling to 20psi at redline. So he is actually only seeing 20psi at high rpms and if he had better boost control I believe he would need larger injectors.
You will need larger than 1150's for that turbo you are running.

Cold starts are not an issue and we have below zero temps up here, its harder but the car does start every time.

.. Maybe if he has a stock fuel pump.. ? Keeping them open and wasting fuel.
My 16g with 750s around 22psi is 80% IDC

 

[turboglenn]

.. Maybe if he has a stock fuel pump.. ? Keeping them open and wasting fuel.
My 16g with 750s around 22psi is 80% IDC

Are you running E85 as well?

 

[bastard dsm]

you guys really need to stop reading all the crap your looking at...
really.first the dyno thing,you want to do a pull on the gear that is closest to 1.0 ratio.
2nd, the maxed out 1000's on the evo3 is prob a maxed out pump.....put a fp guage on it.
3rd when in closed loop on e85, the narrow band tries for 15.5 a/f's in my opinion thats fine.
4th timming on e85 has a different burn rate so more aggressive and flat timming map is needed.
as far as e85 vs c16,on a test car e85 made 40 more hp boost for boost than c16 at 28psi.this was on a 1g race car at 24deg of timming no knock.the car was no longer knock limmited,timming was rolled up so far the car lost power but still no knock.

just keep in mind that i mad that power on my galant with the stock fuel lines,filter,2grail and fpr,still have the banjo bolt from filter to rail,and im barely maxing out my 750's on full e85 on 28-25psi of boost.

 

[turboglenn]

you guys really need to stop reading all the crap your looking at...
really.first the dyno thing,you want to do a pull on the gear that is closest to 1.0 ratio.
2nd, the maxed out 1000's on the evo3 is prob a maxed out pump.....put a fp guage on it.
3rd when in closed loop on e85, the narrow band tries for 15.5 a/f's in my opinion thats fine.
4th timming on e85 has a different burn rate so more aggressive and flat timming map is needed.
as far as e85 vs c16,on a test car e85 made 40 more hp boost for boost than c16 at 28psi.this was on a 1g race car at 24deg of timming no knock.the car was no longer knock limmited,timming was rolled up so far the car lost power but still no knock.

just keep in mind that i mad that power on my galant with the stock fuel lines,filter,2grail and fpr,still have the banjo bolt from filter to rail,and im barely maxing out my 750's on full e85 on 28-25psi of boost.

Now that's inspirational information!!!!!!!!!! What are your AFR's when you say you're maxing out your injectors?? I can't wait to get a tank of this stuff thrown in and see wha ti can do with it/. I work tomorrow, friday and saturday; then sunday i'll be with the woman, so i am not sure how soon i'll get to dial in a map, but i'm going to fill up on it, set my trim knob to allow +/- 50% fuel and drive around on it seeing how much change i need in IDC by looking at my average % of fuel trimming i see this week from the knob.

As for dyno'ing in fourth (or in a 1:1 gear) How far off will the average reading be when done in fourth, then backed up in third? THe reason i ask is the last time my car was on a dyno with the stock engine and 1g head i made 360 on pump gas boost and timing (had 118 in the tank though) and i made 468 on 28-29psi and 24-26 degrees of timing through out the entire boosted range of cells..I did those pulls in fourth because we were spinning tires... This last time, i did all pulls in third and had roughly the same setup with the exception of cams and some other tid bits and made 332 on pump gas (but i hadn't learned about W/I yet and was running it but not "making use of it" The first time was on a dynojet and this was on a mustang so i expected some difference, just not as much as i saw and the car feels faster than it did back when i was seeing 360 on pump compared to my current 332 (i know they are just numbers and power output varies with alot of things, but it's the best reference i have)